So, I have a player who consistently rolls 7, 8, or 9 hits to infiltrate vs. the 4 hits or so of the opposition to spot him. I use the teamwork rules and even occasionally add "that should not be easy at all" dice, sometimes slinging 25 ish dice to spot this guy. He isn't infiltrating in IMPOSSIBLE situations, but really? Walking up to a guy in broad daylight, palming his pistol, shooting his buddy, palming the pistol back, and then infiltrating back away? I am tempted to rule that no, he just can't do that, but....I don't know if I have an issue with it yet, but for the situation you just described... I can see it up to "palming the pistol back." Unless the pistol is suppressed.
Do you guys have any issue with the infiltration system?
The player in question slings about 12-14 dice, and most definitely does not cheat. It pisses me off, because i can watch him roll every time and there is no way he is cheating. You can hand him your own dice and they roll better for him than they do for you. Further, anyone who rolls against him has luck subtly shifted against them. I sling 26 dice against his 12 and score 4 hits, he scores 7. It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it. Also, he has Edge 6, and Zeench looks favorably on him when he decides to Edge something, granting him 12+ hits on most tests. And he sits right where i can see his every roll...Argh!Ah, one of those.
I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.
The player in question slings about 12-14 dice, and most definitely does not cheat. It pisses me off, because i can watch him roll every time and there is no way he is cheating. You can hand him your own dice and they roll better for him than they do for you. Further, anyone who rolls against him has luck subtly shifted against them. I sling 26 dice against his 12 and score 4 hits, he scores 7. It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it. Also, he has Edge 6, and Zeench looks favorably on him when he decides to Edge something, granting him 12+ hits on most tests. And he sits right where i can see his every roll...Argh!Ah, one of those.
I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.
Make him roll from a cup. A shaker. Whatever you want to call it -- a container between his skin and the dice.
No, I'm not saying he's cheating. I've seen a bunch of theories why some people can do it, but I've seen enough who can to know there's no cheating (at least consciously) going on.
Every one of them with whom I've dealt can't seem to make it work if the dice roll out of a cup. They need the skinlink for the bonus to work.
Minor expansion. For a period of about three years in college (mumble) years ago, I was your infiltration guy. It was DnD (2ed), and if I needed the roll I made it. Always -- except when I had to roll from a cup. Which, eventually, became part of the GM's standard gear -- and which he started making everyone use.
I don't know why it worked. I just know it did on me, and has worked on the other dice-talented people I've met as well.
The player in question slings about 12-14 dice, and most definitely does not cheat. It pisses me off, because i can watch him roll every time and there is no way he is cheating. You can hand him your own dice and they roll better for him than they do for you. Further, anyone who rolls against him has luck subtly shifted against them. I sling 26 dice against his 12 and score 4 hits, he scores 7. It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it. Also, he has Edge 6, and Zeench looks favorably on him when he decides to Edge something, granting him 12+ hits on most tests. And he sits right where i can see his every roll...Argh!
I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.
Now, i am not a very unlucky person; I tend to score 50-70% hits on my dice. But this man, he scores 80-90% on average. He has only ever failed one test, because every time he rolls less than 4 hits, the Gamemaster of the moment rolls a critical glitch or just no hits. usually the glitch. On pools of 20.
I'll Tell you this Mason, he's gotten worse with infiltration lately, next time have him roll for surprise, oops he got less hits then they did, once he shoots one, the guy he jacked the pistol from turns around realizes his holster is lighter and then quick draws and fires at him with a second pistol or some other nast goodness. I had been thinking about how to handle him pulling that when we start the turn I run.
Now, i am not a very unlucky person; I tend to score 50-70% hits on my dice. But this man, he scores 80-90% on average. He has only ever failed one test, because every time he rolls less than 4 hits, the Gamemaster of the moment rolls a critical glitch or just no hits. usually the glitch. On pools of 20.
Just wait his time will come just like me.
Though it is funny when a 6 Intelligent Orc PC of mine outsmarts both a Sorcerer, through RP, and a Bard with Bardic Knowledge through rolls..... Critical!
Now, i am not a very unlucky person; I tend to score 50-70% hits on my dice. But this man, he scores 80-90% on average. He has only ever failed one test, because every time he rolls less than 4 hits, the Gamemaster of the moment rolls a critical glitch or just no hits. usually the glitch. On pools of 20.
Just wait his time will come just like me.
Though it is funny when a 6 Intelligent Orc PC of mine outsmarts both a Sorcerer, through RP, and a Bard with Bardic Knowledge through rolls..... Critical!
I was actually thinking about forcing him to play a magician in our upcoming SRM games, he doesn't do too well with drain.
I have one of those infiltrating masters and I love catching him with the simple things, like a squeaky door or loose floorboards. Course the latter was cancelled out when he picked up traceless walk...
Bottom line to any of these problems is do what is best for the story. If the story is good then you'll never hear a complaint that your major NPC dodged that perfectly aimed shot
I'm actually still not quite sure what you can use infiltration for besides sneaking past someone? I mean if I want to get into a building without being seen do i just roll infiltration? once i'm inside do I just keep rolling it as i move about the building? Take into account 9 hit's is WAAAAAY crazy. Means your a stealthy ninja if you take the "Difficulty Table" into account. I try to go by that table as much as possible.
I believe the table went like this...
1 Hit = Easy
2 hit = Moderate
3 hits = hard
5+ hits = Extreme
Bad idea. Forcing someone to play something leaves dissatisfaction.
I'm actually still not quite sure what you can use infiltration for besides sneaking past someone? I mean if I want to get into a building without being seen do i just roll infiltration? once i'm inside do I just keep rolling it as i move about the building? Take into account 9 hit's is WAAAAAY crazy. Means your a stealthy ninja if you take the "Difficulty Table" into account. I try to go by that table as much as possible.
I believe the table went like this...
1 Hit = Easy
2 hit = Moderate
3 hits = hard
5+ hits = Extreme
This is one of the reasons I really liked the dice system in SR3.. you do something totally nuts and have a threshold of over 18 and it's damn near impossible, even with edge. Those same 20 dice need to roll 3 sixes in a row. First roll, maybe 4 6's. Next roll, probably 1 or 2. Third roll, not too likely.
I have one of those infiltrating masters and I love catching him with the simple things, like a squeaky door or loose floorboards. Course the latter was cancelled out when he picked up traceless walk...
Bottom line to any of these problems is do what is best for the story. If the story is good then you'll never hear a complaint that your major NPC dodged that perfectly aimed shot
Trust me... he was expecting it. Even if he was turned around 1500 meters away and was busy goggling some hot elf passing by. He was expecting it! xD
In all seriousness, the best way I've ever found to counter some player's consistently amazing/extravagant but legal behavior is to make them deal with it.
In this case, make an uber-infiltrator, and create a reason for him to be hunting the team and especially Mr. Stealthy. Let the team learn of the hunt, make a reason they get to learn just how effective this guy is, then let it run.
As a worst-case example: enemy sends message - "I'm the best. You're encroaching. I'm going to prove I'm better by interfering with you, then in your humiliation I'm going to kill you. And I'm so good you can't do a thing about it." (Basically a variation on the gunfighter problem.)
Threshhold of 18? I can almost beat that with my 27 Edged gunslinger's dice. >.>
Just made another character that has 34 dice edged for a combat roll as well.... <.<
My average tends to be 13 dice, but that's just average.... :P
Quote
Threshhold of 18? I can almost beat that with my 27 Edged gunslinger's dice. >.>
Just made another character that has 34 dice edged for a combat roll as well.... <.<
My average tends to be 13 dice, but that's just average.... :P
Nah, threshold on each individual die. In SR3, you took the # on the die and compared it to a target. In this case, 18. To get an 18, you need each individual die to roll a 6, then another 6, then another 6. All dice in SR3 were using the Rule of Six to meet thresholds. Every die that scored 18 or more was a hit. Average thresholds were 4 or 5.
So you went from threshold 6 (1/6) to threshold 8 (5/36)? man, that's a jump.Quote
Threshhold of 18? I can almost beat that with my 27 Edged gunslinger's dice. >.>
Just made another character that has 34 dice edged for a combat roll as well.... <.<
My average tends to be 13 dice, but that's just average.... :P
Nah, threshold on each individual die. In SR3, you took the # on the die and compared it to a target. In this case, 18. To get an 18, you need each individual die to roll a 6, then another 6, then another 6. All dice in SR3 were using the Rule of Six to meet thresholds. Every die that scored 18 or more was a hit. Average thresholds were 4 or 5.
yep, what he said.
The advantage as a GM is that as the threshold increased it became exponentially harder to meet it, so there really WAS a big difference between a threshold of 11 and a threshold of 14. Just having PC's throw more dice pool (and edge) at it gave them depreciating returns.
So you went from threshold 6 (1/6) to threshold 8 (5/36)? man, that's a jump.Quote
Threshhold of 18? I can almost beat that with my 27 Edged gunslinger's dice. >.>
Just made another character that has 34 dice edged for a combat roll as well.... <.<
My average tends to be 13 dice, but that's just average.... :P
Nah, threshold on each individual die. In SR3, you took the # on the die and compared it to a target. In this case, 18. To get an 18, you need each individual die to roll a 6, then another 6, then another 6. All dice in SR3 were using the Rule of Six to meet thresholds. Every die that scored 18 or more was a hit. Average thresholds were 4 or 5.
yep, what he said.
The advantage as a GM is that as the threshold increased it became exponentially harder to meet it, so there really WAS a big difference between a threshold of 11 and a threshold of 14. Just having PC's throw more dice pool (and edge) at it gave them depreciating returns.
It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it.
I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.
Sure, and it can cost a whole bunch in cyberware, etc. However, remember this one wonderful thing:
Tacnet.
If scum-of-the-earth (even if they are cream of the scum) shadowrunners can whack together a R4 tacnet program and get 4 additional dice for damn near everything, then you can betcha any corp with stuff worth stealing is going to have their security running a tacnet every damn night. +4 dice for Perception to everyone.
And everything. Please, please don't forget stuff like ultrasound, radar, MAD detectors built into the doorframes, sealed windows with sensor-wires woven through them -- things where the tech to avoid it simply doesn't exist for Max Infiltrate to buy, or 'strict security' measures that he will have to make a Perception roll to notice -- and which might well give him penalties to detect.
The hostage dilemma is logically unsolvable; make it his problem. In this case, it's a Perception problem, but again, make it HIS problem, putting 'tripwire' tech where he can't help but cross it.
... y'know, I can see a secure entry room where the first door closes, the people inside get 'checked over' by security, and then they get let through -- but where one of the checks is a low-power UV laser grid scan of the room. He may be ruthenium polymered and thermo cloaked into invisibility, but ruthenium can't imitate a laser...
They can "dodge" them. But they have to know they are there.
They can "dodge" them. But they have to know they are there.
Bring something to spray into every room? xD
They can "dodge" them. But they have to know they are there.I wouldn't quite say that. That sets a precedence that the player must know about each and every possible thing that could percieve him/her in order to infiltrate successfully. That makes stealth unreasonably difficult, as well as somewhat unrealistic.
They can "dodge" them. But they have to know they are there.I wouldn't quite say that. That sets a precedence that the player must know about each and every possible thing that could percieve him/her in order to infiltrate successfully. That makes stealth unreasonably difficult, as well as somewhat unrealistic.
Inflitration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors. (SR4A, 124)
Technical security includes alarms, sensors, scanners, locks, and automated systems. (SR4A, 261, original emphasis)
Trip beams are...perimeter alarms. Noticing [them] requires a Perception + Intuition (2) Test for visible beams, or a threshold of 3 for infrared beams. ... Squeezing past a trip beam maze requires an Agility + Reaction Test against a gamemaster-determined threshold. (SR4A, 261)
Defeating a motion sensor requires that characters move very slowly through the field, one half-meter per Combat Turn, and succeeding in an Infiltration + Agility (3) Test. (SR4A, 261, my emphasis)
You don't need to know where a camera is to know that there probably is one and you should keep to the shadows. You don't need to know where each guard is to know to keep out of open areas and stay low to the ground, etc. And you don't need to spot a laser trip beam to assume that there might be one. Of course, knowing helps improve your task, but not knowing doesn't make the player worse at sneaking. That would be applying a modifier incorrectly (a penalty to player when it should be bonus to observer).
This becomes an extremely important point when you consider astral observers. If you have the mentality that you must be aware of something to sneak by it, then any mundane automatically fails against an astral observer. That's somewhat absurd if you ask me, as it renders an entire character concept ineffectual and useless. The Astral observer should of course receive a good bonus for aura on shadow contrast, and possibly negative background count (low life area such as a city would have a -1 Background Count that becomes a +1 Astral Visibility modifier, check SM for the chart), likely around +3 to +5 dice on average but is very situational.
But something to consider is a perception bonus for superior positioning. A vantage point over a bottleneck, a camera in a good place, or something like placing a guard at the end of a narrow hallway that gives the guard a superior view of that hallway. This bonus could be offset by the player making their own perception check to notice the difficulty and plan around it, giving them a similar bonus or taking away the NPC's bonus depending on what they do.
Also, the rules state that some things are just plain obvious and do not require a perception check to be made. An example could be a camera that watches a door and does not pan. If the infiltrator tries to use that door they will be seen, it's just impossible to do it without being seen.
I think it's this last situation that ARC was speaking about, I just don't want anyone coming away from this discussion thinking that a infiltrator must know where each and every opposed observer (NPC, sensor, or otherwise) is in order to infiltrate successfully.
That's the impression I was getting from some of their posts which I didn't agree with. When the mage was brought up i thought "Well if he's hiding from people in real life wouldn't he be just as stealty in Astral?" I mean he may not know there's a mage patrolling but he's still trying to be sneaky. *shrugs*
From what most of the posts are saying about infiltration it seems that they limit it to "Get past someone without being seen skill." which then have limited use.... o.O'
If they had to infiltrate through a door watched by a camera and they rolled well I would have seen they noticed a vent (cheesey and unrealistic but hey it works) that goes around the door without being seen by the camera. Or maybe it's a moving camera so they slip past while it's moving. (shrugs) anyways don't think it should be an automatic fail.
What you don't know can hurt you -- so find out.
From an astral viewpoint, being sneakery in the flesh means that you are having very many stealthy thoughts. It doesn't mean that you mystically vanish in the astral; there are spells and adept abilities for that, IIRC. A sneaking character is not invisible on the astral; you might be sneaking to beat the dragon, but on the astral you're still just there, and someone in the same area as you is going to spot you right away, just as if you were 'sneaking' through a bare hall without your equipment, and a guy is staring right at you.
An intrusion is, even now, an operation that requires multiple different skills to succeed. Oh, you can roll just infiltration to avoid detection from the various sensors and people, but sometimes you'll need Hardware (to get through that maglock). I said it before and I say it again: the door doesn't care how sneaky you are, it's gonna stay locked anyhow.
You cannot do a lot of things with your infiltration skill.
And knowing things is essential in Shadowrun. That's the point. You might be able to sneak up to Lofwyr and steal Saeder-Krupp from him, but if you don't know the security setup, then the GM has every right to make you roll a drekload of perception checks to spot the various security measures taken against people Just Like You. Not knowing it's there -- whether specifically ('Thermographic camera in that corner') or generally ('Okay, these are security schematics of the 33rd and 34th floor, up to date as of four weeks ago...') -- means the GM has every right to let you get halfway through the intrusion and let you turn a corner into six AK-97 muzzles. That track you. And shoot very accurately if you try to get away.
Being generic lets the GM gloss over a lot of specifics; 'you get the security details'. Being specific means the GM gets to tell you about items A through F, but not item G, which got put in just last week.
Also, when I make a place really hard to get into, he will just walk into the facility, knocks a guard out/kill him, hide the body, take his uniform, get 10 hits to disguise himself as an employee, then walks around the facility like he owns the place.
Also, when I make a place really hard to get into, he will just walk into the facility, knocks a guard out/kill him, hide the body, take his uniform, get 10 hits to disguise himself as an employee, then walks around the facility like he owns the place.
I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...
I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...In all honesty it should only work with people that are not security. Eventually it will catch on.
I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...In all honesty it should only work with people that are not security. Eventually it will catch on.
Even then it shouldn't. My spouse works at the CDC, and she knows at least half a dozen of the guards by face and, in some cases, name -- and vice-versa. You can Con your way past that for a little bit by saying, 'Oh, I just got transferred in from ... uh ... Germany!!' or something, but the next guard the person sees is going to hear 'hey, how's that new guy working out?'
[ Divers Alarums. ]
A long shot is all a runner needs to get in. Getting out is harder. That's where the fun is.
I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...In all honesty it should only work with people that are not security. Eventually it will catch on.
Even then it shouldn't. My spouse works at the CDC, and she knows at least half a dozen of the guards by face and, in some cases, name -- and vice-versa. You can Con your way past that for a little bit by saying, 'Oh, I just got transferred in from ... uh ... Germany!!' or something, but the next guard the person sees is going to hear 'hey, how's that new guy working out?'
[ Divers Alarums. ]
In the short term it might work, like maybe 10 minutes, that is unless they really do have a new guy that just started that night.
Oh believe me, I completely agree, but it would work in the short term,
The player in question slings about 12-14 dice, and most definitely does not cheat. It pisses me off, because i can watch him roll every time and there is no way he is cheating. You can hand him your own dice and they roll better for him than they do for you. Further, anyone who rolls against him has luck subtly shifted against them. I sling 26 dice against his 12 and score 4 hits, he scores 7. It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it. Also, he has Edge 6, and Zeench looks favorably on him when he decides to Edge something, granting him 12+ hits on most tests. And he sits right where i can see his every roll...Argh!
I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.
The player in question slings about 12-14 dice, and most definitely does not cheat. It pisses me off, because i can watch him roll every time and there is no way he is cheating. You can hand him your own dice and they roll better for him than they do for you. Further, anyone who rolls against him has luck subtly shifted against them. I sling 26 dice against his 12 and score 4 hits, he scores 7. It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it. Also, he has Edge 6, and Zeench looks favorably on him when he decides to Edge something, granting him 12+ hits on most tests. And he sits right where i can see his every roll...Argh!
I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.
Tzeentch is a fickle god, he will never favor a single follower for long. Wait and the Changer of Ways will do the work for you.
Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh are the Chaos Gods in the Warhammer and Warhammer 40k Universe.
Ok, completely agree with you there. That's an impossible task. No chance, shoulda done some legwork Chummer or at least noticed the beam.They can "dodge" them. But they have to know they are there.I wouldn't quite say that. That sets a precedence that the player must know about each and every possible thing that could percieve him/her in order to infiltrate successfully. That makes stealth unreasonably difficult, as well as somewhat unrealistic.
I disagree, politely, with you here. It's what the whole legwork phase of a run is for. There can be the; "Did you get the security schematics from the contractors about that facility?" "Yeah, chummer, the room before our target is a laser sensor matrix, vertically and horizontally, with only a two millimeter gap between the lattice work." "Frag, we better get our hacker to take that out." Or the; "Hey, GM, this is the last room before our target, do I see anything?" (rolling perception) "Nope, looks all clear." "Okay, well to be safe, I'll use Infiltration." GM to him/herself, "well, he can't squeeze himself into a <2 mm spaghetti strand so the alarms go off."
Yeah, this is my fault for not being clear. I don't disagree with any of that.QuoteInflitration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors. (SR4A, 124)
ThenQuoteTechnical security includes alarms, sensors, scanners, locks, and automated systems. (SR4A, 261, original emphasis)QuoteTrip beams are...perimeter alarms. Noticing [them] requires a Perception + Intuition (2) Test for visible beams, or a threshold of 3 for infrared beams. ... Squeezing past a trip beam maze requires an Agility + Reaction Test against a gamemaster-determined threshold. (SR4A, 261)
If you look through the whole Technical Security section (SR4A, 261-264) it modifies, clarifies, and specifies how Infiltration is used under certain conditions. Like not at all for trip beams or, as for motion sensors;QuoteDefeating a motion sensor requires that characters move very slowly through the field, one half-meter per Combat Turn, and succeeding in an Infiltration + Agility (3) Test. (SR4A, 261, my emphasis)
So if a player doesn't know that the motion sensors are there and says, "hey, I'm going to use Infiltration to move across this room" and then proceeds to move 5 meters in the first Combat Turn...no matter what they roll on their Infiltration test, even 50 hits...they're getting picked up by the sensors.
Knowing is half the run.
Well, with these situations it's more like "Not knowing almost always gets you geeked." The rolls still get made and the perciever still needs to win the opposed test to notice the person. Planning and forehand knowledge should give the infiltrater a few bonuses and let him/her make better decisions, but it is still possible to just outright beat them in opposed tests. In fact, not even sneaking (just not being outstandingly obvious) still requires a single hit on a perception test. It's possible to get past a guard without even sneaking if he botches the roll (would have to be a terrible guard, but terrible guards do exist especially with AR sports games to watch).You don't need to know where a camera is to know that there probably is one and you should keep to the shadows. You don't need to know where each guard is to know to keep out of open areas and stay low to the ground, etc. And you don't need to spot a laser trip beam to assume that there might be one. Of course, knowing helps improve your task, but not knowing doesn't make the player worse at sneaking. That would be applying a modifier incorrectly (a penalty to player when it should be bonus to observer).
But...the cameras could have night vision or thermographic sensors linked to motion detection software...not knowing gets you geeked. But there could be a guard leaning against the wall just around the corner and you'll both have to roll surprise and perceptions...not knowing where the guards are gets you geeked. And sure you can assume there's a beam, but where do you duck, step over, slide under, jump over it, is it a meter into the room and a meter off the ground, two and one, one and two, 2.72 and 3.14?...not knowing gets you geeked.
If the runners didn't check the security out and find out where these things are then they're walking right into it. Of course the GM should, through varying levels of difficulty, make this information available to the characters with proper legwork on their part.Again, totally agree. But not all things are automatic failures for not knowing about it. Some are, but some are not. I just don't want newchummers to assume that they ALL are and become lazy GMs when it comes to stealth.
Yeah, I think we're on the same page here too. Just pointing out that if that same mage was in a forest (where everything has an aura like our Infiltrater) and a person tried to sneak by darting between trees because he's avoiding mundane threats, it doesn't mean the mage on the astral gets an automatic victory on him because the Infiltrater didn't know he was thereThis becomes an extremely important point when you consider astral observers. If you have the mentality that you must be aware of something to sneak by it, then any mundane automatically fails against an astral observer. That's somewhat absurd if you ask me, as it renders an entire character concept ineffectual and useless. The Astral observer should of course receive a good bonus for aura on shadow contrast, and possibly negative background count (low life area such as a city would have a -1 Background Count that becomes a +1 Astral Visibility modifier, check SM for the chart), likely around +3 to +5 dice on average but is very situational.
This is why A ) mages are rare and B ) kill mages first...before they get to work. A mundane trying to sneak down a sterilized hallway where an astrally projecting mage is hanging out at the other end...game over. It would be like not noticing a dancing Christmas tree coming down the hall way. But a facility that can have mages hanging out 24/7 at the end of hallways is, well, not realistic (unless we're talking big big budget for funding, like Lofwyr's deltaclinic for his drop bear army). It's then left up to watchers and other spirits which are either very unreliable or expensive to maintain.
This part I disagree with a bit. If you have ever walked into a room or place and after a minute notice that you DIDN'T notice another person already there, and they are surprised when you say hi to them, to me that shows the ability to sneak by something while unaware of it's presence. Obviously not all things are like that, just the things that require that good old human element, where someone might be distracted or just plain oblivious.I think it's this last situation that ARC was speaking about, I just don't want anyone coming away from this discussion thinking that a infiltrator must know where each and every opposed observer (NPC, sensor, or otherwise) is in order to infiltrate successfully.
And I, politely (at least my intent has to come across as polite), disagree for the reasons above. And I would go so far as to say that a player must designate who or what they are trying to sneak past before they roll Infiltration. You have to perceive where the eyes are, and aren't, in order to know how to effectively avoid them, meat-body or otherwise. As a completely absurd and, hopefully, funny example...ever watch a movie with a guy sneaking around. Despite all his best efforts, even if the actor studied with ninjas for a decade on how to be sneaky, why does the audience always see him? :)
Part of it is that I was tired when I posted and did not empathize that I was mostly concerned with NPCs and other things that actually make an opposed Perception vs Infultration against the character.
This part I disagree with a bit. If you have ever walked into a room or place and after a minute notice that you DIDN'T notice another person already there, and they are surprised when you say hi to them, to me that shows the ability to sneak by something while unaware of it's presence. Obviously not all things are like that, just the things that require that good old human element, where someone might be distracted or just plain oblivious.I think it's this last situation that ARC was speaking about, I just don't want anyone coming away from this discussion thinking that a infiltrator must know where each and every opposed observer (NPC, sensor, or otherwise) is in order to infiltrate successfully.
And I, politely (at least my intent has to come across as polite), disagree for the reasons above. And I would go so far as to say that a player must designate who or what they are trying to sneak past before they roll Infiltration. You have to perceive where the eyes are, and aren't, in order to know how to effectively avoid them, meat-body or otherwise. As a completely absurd and, hopefully, funny example...ever watch a movie with a guy sneaking around. Despite all his best efforts, even if the actor studied with ninjas for a decade on how to be sneaky, why does the audience always see him? :)
Additionally, noticing something is the responsibility of the person doing the noticing. The perception check needs to be done in order to observe, though situationally this can be drastically modified. If you're not ruling that the person attempting to sneak is "Immediately Noticeable" (I think that's the term the book uses to negate the test), the observer needs to succeed the test, even if the Infiltrater is unaware of the observer.
Anyhow, that's it. I think we agree on most points. And again, I think the perception that I thought you could just waltz in past sensors was because I wasn't clear enough in my original post.
Sorry again about not posting a response sooner, I had a couple of stressful days at work and didn't want to post while angry or annoyed at something else. Didn't want it to bleed over.
Anyhow, I think I see why we're doing things differently. First, I think we're both using different valid RAW interpretations. I haven't seen anything in your posts that appears that it breaks RAW, and I know nothing in mine does either. The second is I'm willing to bet you handle infiltration a little more abstract then I do (I usually pull out the grid and markers when it comes up).
So here's how it is at my table:
An infiltrating player makes a perception test to notice potential problems. Any that he/she sees I mark on the grid. Then the player decides what path to take that will give them the best chance. If they miss a guard that was tough to spot, then it doesn't show up on the grid and the player doesn't know about them. But the player still gets to choose the route they take, and that route may or may not take them into the visual path of the hidden guard.
Now the part that makes me apply stealth use when the Infiltrator is unaware of the perceiver:
Another thing is that I don't just use the visual sense in detecting a ninja on the premiss. Sound, scent (one of my player's has this as their best sense), touch, all can apply. So when a player chooses a path that keeps makes use of visual cover, they still need to be quiet, etc, also handled by Infiltration. So when a character knows a perciever is there, even if they keep full cover they still need to roll infiltration so the guard doesn't hear them and come looking.
Now lets say for example that the character chose to go down a row of large stacked crates in a warehouse. There is a guard on the other side for both sides, placed so that when the character is directly opposite on the are opposite the other at the same time, but the character is only aware of one of them. The route will never let the character be seen by those two. The guards cannot see the character but can possibly hear him/her, obviously. How would this roll be performed? One opposed roll and one threshold? The character in question didn't know to... what, redirect the reverberations in a different direction? Seems to me like both guards would be trying to pick up the same amount of sound intensity, so should have the same hit requirement.
Why should visual be different? Not knowing the guard is there should effect modifiers, not remove the ability to reduce your presence. Staying low to the ground and quiet would reduce the chance your noticed, even if you didn't know the person was there. Maybe not knowing they were there you crossed their field of vision, sure, they'll see you, but it's because they have an advantage to see that area. Not knowing they were there didn't make you go there. It also doesn't mean that staying low wouldn't make you harder to see in many circumstances.
I'm going to tell a short story of something that actually happened when I was a kid, playing a game of manhunt at night. I was being hunted and needed to get away from my hiding place, but the only route to me was past my friend who hadn't spotted me yet. No cover except that of night. So what I did was I got on my belly and crawled, slowly and quietly past him on the wet grass. It worked, I got past him and kept crawling for a while before getting up and running. Only thing was, I got past TWO of my friends. One was wearing all black and I didn't see him, I only found out later when they said they were together the entire time. Now, I daresay that if I didn't crawl and stay so quiet I would have been noticed, and my actions applied to both of them despite my lack of awareness of one of them. It was my skill test that avoided breaking a twig or crushing leaves, my performance determined how difficult it was for BOTH of them, not just one.
So, going back to your examples: The window where the drone pops up, well, the character's stealth still applies, but the drone gets a positive modifier for "Object stands out in some way" +2 and a "Superior Position" modifier determined by how dead on it's vision is pointed at the window. If it was dead on enough that it's impossible (certainly would be in this situation) I'd add +∞.
But my point remains on two things:
1) The test is still in opposition, it's just in some cases it's extremely one-sided to the point that you don't bother rolling. And not knowing it's in opposition is not what makes it an opposed test, it's when the two actions are in conflict, one making the other more difficult. If the character is trying to remain unseen and is taking appropriate action, then they should be harder to see based on their roll. And if they pick a bad path and run smack into a guard's vision, well, it's not for lack of trying to reduce their presence they're seen, it's because the guard has an advantage to see that space.
2) That the Perception roll itself is not what creates this situation, it's the information received from it and the player's decisions based on that info. A failure to notice a guard doesn't mean the player HAS to encounter that guard. I'd only do that if the player glitched or critically glitched on their perception roll. Instead the player makes a choice and that choice may or may not change the situation, and with a changed situation come modifiers to the test. For instance, not knowing the guard was there might take away all cover modifiers and give the guard a "superior positioning" bonus for where the player tries to sneak.
Also, it didn't take long for me to find a way to exploit not using this as an opposed test.
Lets take Mr.Fumbles, a hacker who defaults on Infiltration with 3 Agility. He gets himself chameleon suit with thermo damping, a F2 spirit from the mage to use Concealment on him, and intentionally does not check for guards. Ok, clearly metagaming shamelessly, but he actually has about the same chance of avoiding detection if the test is not opposed given his low pool, relying on the negatives to the opposition. Doesn't seem so bad, but he's taken away the possibility of glitching or critical glitching with his 2 dicepool. And since he can only get 2 hits max, a threshold of 1 to 5+ without chance of glitch seems pretty good, unless of course, you say that he HAS to go through a path of an observer because he didn't see them, which would still be railroading even if the metagamer did deserve some comeupons. Anyhow, not a power-game exploit, and can easily just bash your metagamer with the corebook for trying it, but a low level one nonetheless that technically would work using your method.
Anyway, been really enjoying this and am eagerly awaiting your reply.
Interesting... indeed. xDsigh - yeah, that came off as pompous. Take it as given that I meant "YAY, I now have basis for infiltrating against astral spirits."
Or have a security checkpoint in one direction, and a bunch of half-drunk 'Joe's Birthday Party' wageslaves come the other way, completely filling the hall.
Or have a security checkpoint in one direction, and a bunch of half-drunk 'Joe's Birthday Party' wageslaves come the other way, completely filling the hall.
Had a similar scenario happen at a game I was playing in, only with the slight variation that this was an axe-wielding Sam having to sneak because our "sneaky bastard" was a metahuman and the target was inside a Yakuza-run club that wouldn't let anyone but humans in the door.
Axe Sam got past the security at the "private" area by the expedient of two others in the group creating a distraction (w/ Face Elf getting tazed unconscious in the process) and got upstairs to the hall outside where the target was. Just as the Sam was about to go in she heard someone about to come out, and the hallway had nowhere to hide. Her solution? Use gymnastics! She Jackie Chaned up to the top of the walls just past the door and braced herself until the person had gone downstairs.
Maybe use an auto roller? My buddy has this power, he jut can't seem to roll badly on dice. It's made me flip more than game of monopoly .
(Fuck this game)
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