Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Lucek on <05-04-12/2029:51>
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is there a list of gun not effected by gremlins. Clearly a smart linked full auto is a no go and by my reading simple guns like a revolver would qualify as not a moderately sophisticated device.
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is there a list of gun not effected by gremlins. Clearly a smart linked full auto is a no go and by my reading simple guns like a revolver would qualify as not a moderately sophisticated device.
No list that i know of but what it affects is a GMS call some whould have it affect all others might revew on case by base basis.
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Revolvers with few/no advanced parts (meaning especially: electronics) shouldbe relatively safe. That's the whole reason they still exist, after all: rugged durability.
But I do mean, NO ELECTRONICS. No smartlinks, no laser sights, no fancy-schmancy nonsense. If it involves more than two moving parts, don't get it.
Melee hardening, personalised grip, metahuman adjustment of course: all good.
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Also, things with the "Obsolete" quality from Gun Haven. Stuff that's so old it isn't even capable of being modded.
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I'm gonna say needs to be cased ammo too. The caseless uses electronic firing.
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I'm gonna say needs to be cased ammo too. The caseless uses electronic firing.
That is not mutuable true.
Electronic firing uses (in almost all cases afaik) caseless ammo, but there are non electronic firing mechanisms that can be loaded with caseless ammo and imho you could even load a revolver with caseless ammo.
example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11
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Honestly, it's going way to far to extend the quality to the guns (except the really big stuff like assault cannons and up). Keep it simple, and don't frag over your players. Don't have the quality affect their guns.
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Actually if you read the gremlins quality it doesn't say it has to be really high tech it says mechanical. There have been stories of gremlins since WWI.
I base how much it effects on the level it is taken at, and the situation. If it is non-life threatening and will move the plot then I have the gremlins kick in and make things more interesting.
For example when the hacker they are meeting dies suddenly and hands the mage with gremlins 3 the data chip as the mage goes to heal him which causes it to fry or at least scramble so the group now has to do some more work to find out what was on the chip.
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Gremlins only effects technology that is "late 20th century or later" so you should be fine with revolvers (a 19th century technology). As others said the simpler the tech the less gremlins should effect it. How much can really go wrong with a revolver? I'm really curious I don't have much experience with them.
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All of my beefs against caseless go double or triple with gremlins. They are heat sensitive, sealing problems and squib load ejection problems. And why anyone would make a caseless revolver beyond being an art piece is beyond me.
Revolvers are good and even the durable 1911 ACP. Optical scopes are a go, but none of that fancy digital or light enhancing stuff. Go with the AK-47 and Tommy gun for automatic weapons. Drive a diesel.
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Now I want to make a runner that uses a revolver and drives a model T or a horse, he'd have to have a fabulous mustache.
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And why anyone would make a caseless revolver beyond being an art piece is beyond me.
One less step to reload them during combat: no need to eject the spent cases.
Revolvers are good and even the durable 1911 ACP.
... the M-1911A? That's not a revolver, son. That's an autoloader.
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The 1911 is till not an late 20th century tech, so it should be safe from gremlins. Anything with the obsolete quality should be.
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Doesn't the M1911A1 jam enough on it's own to not need gremlins? (That said, I still love the old workhorse.).
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Now I want to make a runner that uses a revolver and drives a model T or a horse, he'd have to have a fabulous mustache.
Well ridding horse whould be possible with running wilde.
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there is a reason armies stopped using horses even with decent armor then get hurt and killed easily by arty. Also regardless of how well trained the horse is its still a horse.
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Better, RIG a horse BIODRONE. :)
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there is a reason armies stopped using horses even with decent armor then get hurt and killed easily by arty. Also regardless of how well trained the horse is its still a horse.
It was not artilary that killed the horse calvery it was speed of internal combution engins plus the machine gun defeating the charge. Horse calvery was around tell world war 2, artilery was used way before then. Armor fell away during the early use of guns, as it was less efficent to armor people and teach them to use swords, than give them guns, and calvery going from main attack force to a flanking force. The return of body armor as a main peace of equipment is only about 15-20 years old. Flack vest was not realy armor just padding to slow down flack.
In some places horse is still perferd for patrols. Us army considered using horses for patrols in afiganistan do to the abilty of a horse to go places most modern vehicles can't.
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Now I want to make a runner that uses a revolver and drives a model T or a horse, he'd have to have a fabulous mustache.
High-Loyalty Centaur Contact? ;D
Introduction of Horse Shapechangers? ;D
HMHVV-Infected Horse?
Summoned Beast Horse Spirit?
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I'd vote bayard or sabgarifya. What's cooler, a horse that turns to mist when you don't need it or scuba horse?
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What could 'gemlins' negative perk affect on a revolver?
Actually a fair bit (if the GM so decides to be mean!)
Frozen trigger.
Jammed cylinder.
Stuck firing pin.
Frozen hammer.
Defective ammo.
Warped sights.
Never think there is anything that a GM CAN NOT use against someone with a high enough negative perk.
That said, revolvers are your best choice with 'gremlins'. Right next to "stick sharpened with rock"
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I'd vote bayard or sabgarifya. What's cooler, a horse that turns to mist when you don't need it or scuba horse?
I'd go for a Ghazu. It's dual-natured, and has both Guard and Magical Guard, not to mention Movement (on a base speed of 20/100).
And they're smarter than most Shadowrunners, too! :)
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And they're smarter than most Shadowrunners, too! :)
I don't think I even have to make this joke.
Present company excepted, of course.
Back on topic, my personal ruling is basically that if it can take a smartgun system, it's subject to gremlins, and if it can't, the gun's probably faulty enough that it might as well have them anyway.
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Well, strictly RAW, it only applies to "late 20th century or later" technologies.
So, most firearms that:
- Have no electronics
- Are not made of plastics, ceramics, or similarly "advanced" materials
- Fire only in SS and/or SA modes
- ... and especially revolvers, bolt-action rifles, and break-action ANYthing ...
... should generally be treated as immune to Gremlins.
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Honestly, I won't have Gremlins affect the gun itself at all, ever. If it has a smartlink, I may have it glitch out at times, but I would consider myself to be a jackass to have the gun itself affected.
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You don't have to be a jackass, to have a gun jam. Real guns do that. Yes, even in the hands of trained professionals.
And more, burst-fire and full-auto-fire capable weapons tend to jam more often than semi-automatic weapons.
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Keep in mind that almost all 2072 weapon have electronics in them even if they don't have smartlink/electronic firing. Ammunition counters are standard issue, and I would imagine displays being popular as well and all numbers of tags. Sure you can get one stripped down (or buy one of the vintage weapons), but a person buying gremlins has specifically asked for things to glitch around them. Unless they are taking efforts to use non-modern (using 2072 as modern) equipment, they should have to deal with the effects.
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You know, you could take gremlins and a mild allergy to EM emissions and astral hazing and you would be quite the Typhoid Mary. Bulk up on skills and contacts and such and all you've got to do is walk into a place with a clipboard and a repair kit. Tell the guard someone called in some sort of technical problem. And then while they check, things start just falling apart. The rest of the team uses that as a distraction to get in.
Need someone dead in the hospital? Check in, get the room next to them and wait for the ALS to crash.
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The Gremlins quality specifically notes that you can't use it as a weapon by making your enemies' tech fail, that it's a Negative quality and as such it only kicks in when it won't benefit you.
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What The Narrator said.
When someone with Gremlins DOESN'T want something to work right, it becomes MORE LIKELY to actually work.
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Consider that Gremlins is a Negative Quality. Negative Qualities are _supposed_ to suck (though some do more than others).
That said, I think a revolver would be a bit less likely to have issues (perhaps consider the user to have Gremlins 2 steps lower, minimum 0). Pistols, such as the venerable 1911, slightly more likely. If it is fabbed, modded with Smartlink, or the like, the character with Gremlins is SOL.
I must admit, I've considered a Centaur character who has Gremlins to some degree to explain her problems with a world designed around metahumans.
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What could 'gemlins' negative perk affect on a revolver?
Actually a fair bit (if the GM so decides to be mean!)
Frozen trigger.
Jammed cylinder.
Stuck firing pin.
Frozen hammer.
Defective ammo.
Warped sights.
Never think there is anything that a GM CAN NOT use against someone with a high enough negative perk.
That said, revolvers are your best choice with 'gremlins'. Right next to "stick sharpened with rock"
Two words: Chain Fire. Oh, sure, it can't happen with modern revolvers and ammo, right?
Right?
Please?
"Hello sir, would you like to see our selection of replacement fingers, or would you like to go right to our cyberhand table?"
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Actualy a back fire or a pop and no kick are both more likly. Pop and no kick is when the bulet goes off but not enofe force to exit the gun thus jaming the barrel. Back fires usaly happen when the barel is jamed with something.
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I'm still not going to frag over one of my players that bad by having their guns fubar just because of that quality (should someone take it). I'll save it for the stuff I feel it's actually meant to mess with like the electronics stuff.
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I'm still not going to frag over one of my players that bad by having their guns fubar just because of that quality (should someone take it). I'll save it for the stuff I feel it's actually meant to mess with like the electronics stuff.
Well normaly you whould only mess with them like that if they are tring to avoid the draw backs by going all low tech. It realy depends on the level they take it at, a 20 point flaw should affect most game play.
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I'm still not going to frag over one of my players that bad by having their guns fubar just because of that quality (should someone take it). I'll save it for the stuff I feel it's actually meant to mess with like the electronics stuff.
Well normaly you whould only mess with them like that if they are tring to avoid the draw backs by going all low tech. It realy depends on the level they take it at, a 20 point flaw should affect most game play.
If they're going all low-tech like that, then the quality is already affecting them by severely limiting their gear options. To mess with them further on that would just be screwing them over to screw them over.
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Exactly what All4 says.
Honestly, after this conversation I'm somewhat tempted to make a Gremlins character who insists on using old-fashioned stuff whenever and wherever possible. Either it won't have moving parts (armor, melee weapons), or it'll be pre-1950 tech (guns). The rest, like cars, he'll just have to suffer through. That's because IN CHARACTER, he'd have to be a stone blind IDIOT not to realise that newer, higher-tech stuff just BREAKS around him, or otherwise acts screwy and fails to do what it's supposed to - so he's come to appreciate "the good old days" of durable, low-complexity engineering. Revolvers, for example.
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Exactly what All4 says.
Honestly, after this conversation I'm somewhat tempted to make a Gremlins character who insists on using old-fashioned stuff whenever and wherever possible. Either it won't have moving parts (armor, melee weapons), or it'll be pre-1950 tech (guns). The rest, like cars, he'll just have to suffer through. That's because IN CHARACTER, he'd have to be a stone blind IDIOT not to realise that newer, higher-tech stuff just BREAKS around him, or otherwise acts screwy and fails to do what it's supposed to - so he's come to appreciate "the good old days" of durable, low-complexity engineering. Revolvers, for example.
The mention of cars in this post is why we need the vehicle creation rules back, so that someone can piece together the stats to a 1960s or 1970s muscle car (or other car) if they want classic or they want to go low tech with their vehicle.
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The mention of cars in this post is why we need the vehicle creation rules back, so that someone can piece together the stats to a 1960s or 1970s muscle car (or other car) if they want classic or they want to go low tech with their vehicle.
Until they do, the Obsolete quality from This Old Drone should be handy for statting out classic vehicles. And there was a similar quality for guns in Gun Haven, along with some 20th Century firearms that should work well for those with Gremlins.