well in the book it says that the Move by Wire works by essentially keeping your entire body in a state of constant seizures monitored and controlled via your augmented brain. not only does it give you a tendency to twitch at odd moments from the small software glitches inherint to the MbW system but, if any really bad glitches happen you could tear up your muscles with little thought, not to mention breaking your own bones from the inside.
Also, without a Pilot program, you'd need to direct every single movement they make yourself. How are you doing this to 4 of them at once? And even then, what dice pool do these trolls throw for doing stuff?
Is it possible to control a person who is using MbW through hacking? Durring a side mission our GM allowed me to have a small army of 4 dead trolls that all had MbW. I hacked them and connected them together so I could command them all at once.
Is it possible to control a person who is using MbW through hacking? Durring a side mission our GM allowed me to have a small army of 4 dead trolls that all had MbW. I hacked them and connected them together so I could command them all at once.
No ultimately it is not, a stirrup system is consider to basically be a step more complicated then move by wire. A move wire system by defaults lacks the means to recieve and process outside commands. There is no reason for it ever to be connected to any external system.
Ware hacking is so stupid.
I ripped off Hardwired by Walter John Williams. My synaptic boosters have a trigger that is an inhaled chemical, when people are switching on their cyber with a mental switch, I take a hit off my inhaler. Same result, different 'special effect'.
I ripped off Hardwired by Walter John Williams. My synaptic boosters have a trigger that is an inhaled chemical, when people are switching on their cyber with a mental switch, I take a hit off my inhaler. Same result, different 'special effect'.
To me, moreso than the "hacked four dudes at once by controlling their MBW," the issue would be "they were dead guys." Hack all you want to, they're still corpses. It sounds like your GM was cutting you some slack to help tone down what may've been a difficult fight, or something.From what I've read in augmentation, hacking cyberware is darn near impossible, as all it takes is to turn off the wireless access points, the only reason for which in the first place are for diagnostic and patching purposes. I certainly don't see anyone with a move by wire being automatically susceptible to a stirrup interface. (especially since augmentation already says that it doesn't work well on higher order organisms.)
Simplest answer is that there are none aside from the massive Essence cost of it unless a quality is taken (yes, to have TLE-x, it requires taking a Negative Quality). If the quality is taken, there is no issue.
I mean i understand flavor.
There is not even such a thing as move-by-wire: 4 any longer...
This is not something I'd consult the player on; they knew the risks when they loaded themselves up with it. Roll their month/quarter/half-year/yearly chance, then if the dice roll bad, hit 'em with it at the most inopportune moment. Because isn't that what gaming is about? Surviving the 'oh crap!' moments in style ...
I won't say I'm sorry, Lurker, because I'm not - you and I have wildly divergent views and methods in regards to gaming in general, gaming Shadowrun, running it, playing it, etc. If it doesn't work for you, then great - walk from the table, because it's always Rule of the Sandbox. But 'wrong'? Every player I've ever run has been duly and thoroughly warned about the potential negative consequences of getting a piece of gear, from 'your enemies might have it too' all the way up to 'this crap can cause sudden heart-attacks'. And y'know what? I've hit them with about half of those consequences at one point or another, almost always in the middle of a run, i.e. The Worst Possible Moment.
And y'know what? Without fail, those are the runs they talk about most frequently and with the most enthusiasm.
So yeah - doesn't work for you, great. Works for everyone I've gamed with.
"Hey, remember the time just before finishing the mission where we were backstabbed by the Johnson, betrayed by three separate contacts, and were riding on top of a fleet of MCT earthmoving zepplins where we were jumping from zepplin to zepplin without parashutes, and almost making it to the T-Bird alive before the GM tells me that I had gotten TLE-X and that just before I landed on the last zepplin I had gotten a seizure which caused me to fall off and drop a mile to my death? THAT WAS FUN! RIGHT, DAVE?!"
I am perhaps not quite as up-to-snuff on the intricate ins and outs of 4e the way I am (or was) with 1-3e, but I can't imagine users of MBW - especially at its higher levels - being completely immune to the danger of TLE-x. Simply put, it's the brain seizing the way MBW makes it do so - just uncontrollably, now. The higher your level of MBW, the greater the chance, until (at least in 3e) at level 4 you are straight-up GOING to have it eventually, unless you spend a week out of every month under the knife and healing up from preventative medicine, i.e. brain surgery.
This is not something I'd consult the player on; they knew the risks when they loaded themselves up with it. Roll their month/quarter/half-year/yearly chance, then if the dice roll bad, hit 'em with it at the most inopportune moment. Because isn't that what gaming is about? Surviving the 'oh crap!' moments in style ...
<brutal example>I was about to quote you and talk about how intense that run sounds and how justified someone would be getting tweaked at their GM for having it happen to them...
Maybe because the high tech research labs who design move by wire systems have gotten much better at it over the 20 odd years since it was first introduced? So the price is down and the bad effects are down.Well, in part the way move-by-wire works is to put the brain into a controlled seizure state. TLE-x is the brain continuing that seizure state, uncontrolled. Seems to me that that's something that the cybernetics shouldn't have perfect control over - but again, that's me.
*extreme and basically snarky example snipped*
See, now I'm thinking of THAT example as what a GM might do. Beleve me, this happens with some players who are unfortunate to have certain types of GM's, the ones who throw far and above too much on their players. What would be a proper example in your own opinions, and what limits do you put on having bad things happen at the WORST POSSIBLE MOMENT? What is a good time for a sudden onset of TLE-X, and what is a bad time? Is it acceptible to have it out of a mission if you think it might be better for their non-mission downtime moments? Please, I would like to know, as I am genuenly curious. I just don't think that the WORST POSSIBLE MOMENTTM is the defining time for that to happen.
OOoo! MCT Has Zeppelins? *takes notes* Not going to do the TLE-X thing...but...I like that!
Maybe because the high tech research labs who design move by wire systems have gotten much better at it over the 20 odd years since it was first introduced? So the price is down and the bad effects are down.Well, in part the way move-by-wire works is to put the brain into a controlled seizure state. TLE-x is the brain continuing that seizure state, uncontrolled. Seems to me that that's something that the cybernetics shouldn't have perfect control over - but again, that's me.
TLE-xUnderlining/bolding in the text is mine.
Vector: Special
Speed: See Description
Penetration: 0
Power: 5
Nature: Degenerative neural condition
Effect: Stun Damage, Disorientation, Paralysis
Technically not a pathogen, temporal lobe epilepsy with complications is a chronic and degenerative neurological disorder resulting from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants) and as such follows much the same rules. If a character develops TLE-x, she does not manifest symptoms immediately; instead, she becomes subject to acute epileptic seizures in stressful situations. When in appropriately stressful circumstances, the gamemaster may call the TLE-x victim to make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. If the test fails, the character suffers a seizure, and the “disease” effects above kick in.
Initial onset may be resisted by a pharmaceutical cocktail known as AEXD (see Biomedicals below), but after onset TLE-x can only be treated via corrective gene therapy (p. 88) or brain surgery (threshold of 20 and a DV of 7P) — though in both cases it may return if the cause is not removed.
No, there's a specific Negative Quality that allows players to get points for having that particular condition at game start. Don't confuse 'has a Negative Quality' for 'can only take it at game start', or 'cannot be imposed in-game'. Let's look at the specific condition, huh?Quote from: Augmentation, p.132TLE-xUnderlining/bolding in the text is mine.
Vector: Special
Speed: See Description
Penetration: 0
Power: 5
Nature: Degenerative neural condition
Effect: Stun Damage, Disorientation, Paralysis
Technically not a pathogen, temporal lobe epilepsy with complications is a chronic and degenerative neurological disorder resulting from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants) and as such follows much the same rules. If a character develops TLE-x, she does not manifest symptoms immediately; instead, she becomes subject to acute epileptic seizures in stressful situations. When in appropriately stressful circumstances, the gamemaster may call the TLE-x victim to make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. If the test fails, the character suffers a seizure, and the “disease” effects above kick in.
Initial onset may be resisted by a pharmaceutical cocktail known as AEXD (see Biomedicals below), but after onset TLE-x can only be treated via corrective gene therapy (p. 88) or brain surgery (threshold of 20 and a DV of 7P) — though in both cases it may return if the cause is not removed.
This is a condition that MBW users may develop - and from the sound of it ('initial onset may be resisted'), something that they will eventually but inevitably develop. No, MBW doesn't say anything about it; I call that an error on the part of the writer. However, presuming the GM is aware of this condition and that move-by-wire is a primary (but not solitary) cause, the GM should a) warn the player that this is very possible, b) inform the player about the aforementioned AEXD (500 nuyen a week), and then c) if the player doesn't take that drug cocktail regularly, should start noting this in his GM plot journal. When the failure to take the drugs hits a threshold, perhaps 100/level of MBW, then the character develops TLE-x at the GM's whim.
Complaining that this is a random enforcement of a Negative Quality is, well, lack of research; I took two minutes and discovered the base information here, which is found in the description of the aforementioned Negative Quality. Complaining that a GM is enforcing negative qualities (ones which are 'simply' accepting a future possibility as being present) on a whim or for his own amusement is like complaining that you didn't take a Negative Quality of 'Bullet-Riddled' and that the GM is imposing it on you when corporate security is working on filling you full of lead.
TLE-x (or epilepsy, really) is part of the baseline 'Move-By-Wire' inasmuch as a) it's a condition (like 'Blind' or 'Incompetent') that you can take at Game Start, and b) it's a condition that is like any other disease that the GM feels like exposing you to - except that in this case, you-the-player get to choose whether or not to expose yourself by taking high levels of reaction enhancers and/or taking the drugs that help suppress the condition. Negative Qualities are not the only way for Bad Things to happen to you; they're just one way for you to decide that they're ALREADY happening to you, and you might as well get points out of it.
Do your research, JustADude. It'll help your game satisfaction.
Actually the good GM would ask the player if he/she is willing to explore being affected by that condition. If the player says no, then the good GM will let it drop and not mention it again.If you've explained it to the player that MBW can, and probably will, cause TLE-x, and they take MBW afterward, then they apparently agree with the ruling. A good player that doesn't want to risk it will go for Wired Reflexes instead.
Just like the good GM would ask the player if they were open to being dead? I agree with Wyrm, the GM is free to release diseases upon the player, so why not this? Mind, it should not be right away, a lot of time should go over it, but eventually... yes.
Just like the good GM would ask the player if they were open to being dead? I agree with Wyrm, the GM is free to release diseases upon the player, so why not this? Mind, it should not be right away, a lot of time should go over it, but eventually... yes.
Seems we're shifting into some kind of concensus then ("No matter if you support the idea or not, communication is key.") which is a pretty nice change from the usual. We should strive for this more often! ^^
Seems we're shifting into some kind of concensus then ("No matter if you support the idea or not, communication is key.") which is a pretty nice change from the usual. We should strive for this more often! ^^
I think that's a good general rule for any sort of RPG activity.
Just like the good GM would ask the player if they were open to being dead? I agree with Wyrm, the GM is free to release diseases upon the player, so why not this? Mind, it should not be right away, a lot of time should go over it, but eventually... yes.
The big problem I have with Wyrm's approach is it sounds lie he's decided that TLEx is a foregone outcome of getting move by wire Then he rolls dice until he can internally justifies it to himself. Then he has it happen "at the worst possible moment" now he clarified it so that it's not outright "GM's trying to kill my character" it's just "GM's trying to gimp my character because I was stupid enough to not play a street sam his way". No warning, no shakes prior to the event, no sense that somethings wrong. Just bam "Lol, isn't this so great for character definition for the other characters?" Some of the problems are Wyrm wrongly infers (at least in my opinion) that TLE is a foregone conclusion. I submit to him and everyone involved that my feelings are much like JaD's, that TLE is a rare occurance and shouldn't be coming up all that often. In fact it's almost as if it's meant to come up when a character selects it as a negative background. We can't know for certain of course. But it seems to me that if TLE happened inevitably from MBW it would say that right in MBW.
I mean supposedly the tech level does move along and supposedly SR has some pretty advanced medical technology. I'm not going to saddle every character that smokes with cancer, why should I hit everyone who takes MBW with TLEx? Do you hit everyone that sleeps with a joy girl/boy with AIDS? Basically it sounds like a scenario I tend to think of forced wangst.
This is not something I'd consult the player on; they knew the risks when they loaded themselves up with it.Because I was not aware that the MBW description failed to include the high-risk warning, I didn't think it was necessary for the GM to state that risk; yes, I agree that that communication is necessary, even vital - as communication always is. It IS a risk, and by the disease description a high risk, insomuch that it costs 500/week to avoid it. Both you, JustADude, and you, lurkeroutthere, see this disease as being something that should be discussed with the player just before you inflict it on the character. I say, and have always essentially said, it's something that should be stated as a strong possibility when the player first considers move-by-wire - because in both the literature and in the game history (both IC and editionwise) TLE-x is an eventuality that no upper-level Move-By-Wire user avoids except by removing the implant, and that lower-level MBW users run the risk of as well.
No they aren't saying 'yes' just by getting the implant. The only time that they would be saying 'yes' to that is if they took the negative quality in character generation, or if during game play the GM came out and blatantly asked if they were willing to have their character develop the ailment and then said 'yes' at that point.
A fortunately rare problem among highly-cybered individuals,
temporal lobe epilepsy with complications (TLE-x) is a
chronic degenerative condition believed to be caused by neurological
stress caused by excessive cyber implantation.
I would guess, All4BigGuns, that you are a GM who feels that players should have full control over the circumstances surrounding and involving their characters. I believe that by definition the Game Master is in charge of placing those characters into the world they're playing in, challenging them, throwing them curve balls, and sometimes doing so in unexpected ways.
Again, MBW does not 'require the negative trait'. The Negative Trait only enters into it if the player wants to have it at game start. TLE-x is, according to RAW and RAI, a common risk associated with the implanting of Move-By-Wire. It's right there; I've even quoted the entire disease to y'all. TLE-x "... result(s) from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants) ..." What more do you want? Players don't even get the forewarning over almost any of the other diseases they can be nailed with in Shadowrun. This one actually comes written on the warning label.
Now, presuming he's going to include TLE-x in his game at all, it is the GM's obligation to point out this risk and how to minimize it to the player considering the Move-By-Wire implant. A player says 'yes' to the risk by accepting the information, and still going ahead with the implant; he or she is accepting the risk by doing so, no matter how much you ignore the very simple logic. It's like this, see:
GM: "If A, then possibility of C if you do not do B."
Player: "I take A. I do not do B. Therefore, possibility of C."
OR
GM: "If A, then possibility of C if you do not do B."
Player: "I take A. I do B. Therefore, low or no possibility of C."
Nor is developing TLE-x an automatic death sentence the way it's being made out to be; it's a disease that, once developed, can manifest in high-stress situations. I've twice gone over how that occurs. Yes, combat is a high-stress situation, but when you get down to it, the test for even a Body 4/Will 3 samurai isn't impossible.
Look, either you have your eyes closed to what's been written about Move-By-Wire and/or you don't challenge your players without their prior authorization, or else you're aware and you're willing to make a good story and challenge them if they do something stupid - like not take their in-character medicine. Unlike the negative impact previously associated with things like platelet factories and adrenal pumps, the potential negative impact of MBW is still in the game. You can use it, in which case you need to warn the player about the risks and consequences (see logic above), or you don't use it, and it never enters into your game.
Really, it's all right there in front of us. You guys can play without TLE-x; I have no problem with that, that's a GM world decision. Even if you do use TLE-x, you guys can run your games challenging your players only with their permission, or only along obvious routes; that is your decision as well. You cannot state that the above incredibly simple logic is faulty, or that its execution would be, if that's the way it's being played - i.e. TLE-x is being used, and that it's a disease or condition like any other, able to be acquired by anyone being exposed to the trigger conditions. Do you ask your players if they want to be exposed to malaria? Or do you mention that their next run is taking them into mosquito-laden swamps in South America where malaria is still a problem, and if they don't say 'hey, can I get a shot before we leave for that?', do you go ahead and have them roll two dice once a game-day to indicate whether or not they've been infected?
Yes, it's a choice of game style. But there's a difference between the GM saying 'mother, may I' to his players, or giving them all the knowledge they need to make a smart choice and then letting the dice fall where they may to determine consequences for making stupid ones. Maybe they get lucky and never acquire malaria, or the flu, or TLE-x, even through repeated or constant exposure. But I sure as hell wouldn't ask them permission to make the rolls for the chance that they're hit with something they actively decided to ignore the warning on.
Also as long as we're quoting stuff as ironclad proof let me toss this out there.It's fortunately rare in highly-cybered individuals. Riddle me this lurker, how common are Move-by-Wire individuals? Being expensive high grade cyberware that was only a decade ago commonly known for causing this exact issue, I'm going to guess fairly rare yes? Much rarer than most other combat DNI augs like Wired Reflexes, Cyberlimbs (not always combat related but often for runners), ect. So, how does your quote disprove any of what Wyrm has said? Just because it's rare overall does not mean it isn't common in people with a rare augmentation. Doubly so when the disease mentions said rare augmentation as a case "especially" at risk.
Basically you've proven your doing what you accuse us of. I'm also done with this discussion as a whole because it doesn't serve much further purpose.You try to accuse him of twisting things? Sheesh. Can you not be bothered to look at his quote, if not, it's Augmentation, pg. 132.
No they aren't saying 'yes' just by getting the implant. The only time that they would be saying 'yes' to that is if they took the negative quality in character generation, or if during game play the GM came out and blatantly asked if they were willing to have their character develop the ailment and then said 'yes' at that point.If you're told something will happen when you do X, and you do X, then you are accepting that something will happen. It's simple cause and effect. You implant, you're at risk; you don't implant, you're not at risk. The GM does not have to ask permission of the players to tell them they are at risk. If they don't like his style, they're always free to leave and find someone else to play under. If they whine, piss, and moan that he isn't giving them everything exactly as they envisioned it, he's free to ask them to leave and find someone else to play under.
Therefore please presume unless specificly noted otherwise, as I did in the very early posts of this thread that I am speaking in current edition.Canon and Background persists through editions. Mechanics change, yes, but that does not make what has happened before any less relevant in discussion. It only makes past mechanics irrelevant. He's pointed out the SR4 mechanics. Please presume unless otherwise noted that rules quotes are and have been from this edition.
Seems we're shifting into some kind of concensus then ("No matter if you support the idea or not, communication is key.") which is a pretty nice change from the usual. We should strive for this more often!Good advice. And since the conversation seems to have come to as much consensus as it seems likely to ever do, I suggest that this thread be closed or simply left for other people later on.
The big problem I have with Wyrm's approach is it sounds lie he's decided that TLEx is a foregone outcome of getting move by wire. Then he rolls dice until he can internally justifies it to himself. Then he has it happen "at the worst possible moment" now he clarified it so that it's not outright "GM's trying to kill my character" it's just "GM's trying to gimp my character because I was stupid enough to not play a street sam his way". Wyrm...infers that TLE is a foregone conclusion. I submit to him and everyone involved that my feelings are much like JaD's, that TLE is a rare occurance and shouldn't be coming up all that often.I agree that, like many other qualities, TLE-x shouldn't be a definite. It's not a guarantee. It's an option, wyrm is correct in that. However, just as not every hacker (because by background they've all probably run across IC) must have Scorched, not every SURGE character must have deformity, not every street sam with move by wire must have TLE-x. Most of us seem to have agreed that a good GM will say "this is an option, do you want it" or "this is a possibility, would you accept having this come up as a random but likely/eventual occurrence at a later point".
I agree that, like many other qualities, TLE-x shouldn't be a definite. It's not a guarantee. It's an option, wyrm is correct in that. However, just as not every hacker (because by background they've all probably run across IC) must have Scorched, not every SURGE character must have deformity, not every street sam with move by wire must have TLE-x. Most of us seem to have agreed that a good GM will say "this is an option, do you want it" or "this is a possibility, would you accept having this come up as a random but likely/eventual occurrence at a later point".
If you're going to apply it to characters as a definite, wyrm, would you give them the points for it? Or would you charge them karma to get rid of a quality they never gained points from acquiring? Although I'm sure this risks unnecessarily dragging out a conversation that's already passed its conclusion, I wish to ask wyrm: let's say you're GMing with a player who wants move by wire. You explain your 'this is something your character will get in the future' - using the same definite language you've been using thus far in the debate. The player responds "the presense of an optional negative quality says to me that this isn't something that should necessarily come with move by wire". How would you then respond?
Something that just occurred to me...
Wyrm, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly (The cause-effect examples, specifically), you're working under the assumption that the drug regimine will completely or nearly-completely prevent the onset of TLE-x, and that you first gain TLE-x then start making the tests, correct?
The way I read it is that, once your GM decides you're "at risk," you have to begin to immediately make TLE-x tests while under stress and the first time you fail one you've "developed it." And, unfortunately, all the drugs do, if you'll take a look at their entry, is add a +3 DP modifier to the "stress test" to see if you contracted it.
I think lack of efficacy in the AEXD treatment is what really makes me hesitate to bring this into play, more than anything else.
The player responds "the presense of an optional negative quality says to me that this isn't something that should necessarily come with move by wire".
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
Bonus: 10 BP
A fortunately rare problem among highly-cybered individuals, temporal lobe epilepsy with complications (TLE-x) is a chronic degenerative condition believed to be caused by neurological stress caused by excessive cyber implantation. (Note: This is where Lurker stopped. Naturally, the critical game-play notes are afterwards.) Characters who take this quality start play with the TLE-x disease described on p. 132. If the character ever undergoes corrective gene therapy or brain surgery to correct the condition, the quality must be bought off at the cost of 20 Karma (see p. 265, SR4).
So in answer to you, JustADude, going by the rules and going by the theme as written previously, you implant MBW, you're susceptible - automatically. Roll every week if your GM is grumpy, every month if he's cool, every 3-6 if he's really nice. Or maybe you just ICly run that often. From past canon, and from current implications, if you choose to implant a piece of cyberware that puts your brain into a permanent seizure, you can't really complain if it just goes ahead with them on its own, can it?
I, however, would allow for a grace period. I would allow the drug to do just as you said - completely or near-completely prevent the onset of TLE-x. The way I would do it is that, looking at past MBW (26 weeks at the best level), you get just that. Let's make it nice and rounded for everything - 24 weeks free. Well, almost - 24 weeks divided by the level of MBW you have. So 24 weeks for level 1, 12 weeks for level 2, and only 8 weeks for level 3. That's the number of times you can miss your weekly dose without ill effect. Your brain has a certain threshhold, and it doesn't heal very well - if at all. Especially not when the MBW is STILL right there, shaking things up.
What's annoying to me is that everything that's been pulled up to use against my 'imposing' of TLE-x further proves that Move-By-Wire all but inevitably incurs TLE-x.
It isn't a problem with better tech, JustADude; it's a problem with the basic concept of the gear.
Look at it this way. I drive an old Model-T Ford into a garage. Rappa-trappa, rappa-trappa. I close the garage door and run that sucker for a few hours. Lots of carbon monoxide buildup, right? I stay in there, I'm gonna suffocate. So I go out and get a 1976 Oldsmobile Delta 88. Thub thub thub thub thub. I close the garage door and run that sucker for a few hours. Much better gas mileage, will go further and faster - but if I stay in there, I'm still gonna die. So I go out and get a top-of-the-line $2,100,000 GT by Citroen, two bloody cars of the type in the world, and I drive THAT sucker inside my garage. Purrr purrr purr purrr. I close the garage door and run it for a few hours.
Guess what's gonna happen.
The problem isn't with the ware, it's what the ware is making the meat DO. No matter the quality of it, it's putting the brain into a continual epileptic state - it's running the car inside the garage while I'm sitting inside it. It may be a craptastic car, it may be a fantastic car, but it's still pumping CO2 into my lungs.
How about a Tesla Roadster?
The entry for Move-By-Wire does not say you will end up getting TLE-x.
The entry for Temporal Lobe Epilepsy says that the condition is rare for highly-cybered individuals. While the entry does specify that Move-By-Wire systems have a higher risk factor, it does not state that it has a high risk factor. A slight difference in the spelling of the two words, but a significant difference in the impact of the two words.
... temporal lobe epilepsy with complications is a chronic and degenerative neurological disorder resulting from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants)Typically excessive cyberware implants. Especially move-by-wire implants. So ... yeah, there is a slight difference between 'higher risk factor' and 'especially this factor'. You run a typical high risk of heart attack if you take in a lot of cholesterol. You're especially vulnerable if you squirt some fat globules straight into your veins.
When in appropriately stressful circumstances, the gamemaster may call the TLE-x victim to make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. If the test fails, the character suffers a seizure, and the “disease” effects above kick in.
I have AlSO said at every bloody step of the way that if you want to play that way at your table, FINE - but that TLE-x being a side-effect (dodgeable, avoidable, reduce-5-Power-able) of Move-by-Wire implantation is part of Shadowrun, 4th Edition, 20th Anniversary Revised and Updated canon. Bitch about me hitting my players with kinder versions of the rules all you like, but you sure as hell can - or rather, no longer have any faint shroud of proof, reasonable or unreasonable, that TLE-x is not a MBW side-effect the way you've claimed it has been.
Bah. I'm done with you.
Groups are free to use any or all of the advanced rules in this chapter as they see to add further depth to various aspects of medical treatment and implantation.I believe this is where most have been coming from.
Unfortunately, Novocrane, everything that I posted about the way I would do it ...You meant this, of course, but it fails to come across most of the time.
Advance to 4e. There are WHOOOOLLE bucketloads of tech improvements in the last 12 years (M&M: 2061), but the basic way that Move-By-Wire exists has not changed. More controlled, sure, and there are drugs to help the brain control itself. From what I can deduce, this is the way you're actually supposed to run this:If you're playing a game where severe wounds can mangle limbs, destroy essence and otherwise make combat short(er) and filled with nasty(er) after-effects, then there are rules to support MBW being a system that will leave you a physical and mental wreck. It's not the default for SR4, though.
TLE-x is a _possible_ consequence of MBW. It is not guaranteed in 4th edition.Not guaranteed no, but it is a possible and probably consequence of MBW going strictly by the rules.
It is not said that it is a high frequency rate side effect of MBW, just that they are more likely to cause it than other ware."(typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants)" TLE-x is typically gained from heavy cybernetic augmentation. It's "especially" gained from MBW. It is heavily implied that MBW is a leading cause of TLE-x. Ignore as you wish, but past fluff and current rules both imply this heavily.
Augmentation Addict, Biosystem Overstress, Buggy Ware, Cyberpsychosis, High Maintenance Implant, Implant Induced Immune Deficiency, Mystery Mod Noise etc could all happen to a character after creation, however they aren't automatically applied.TLE-x isn't automatically applied. There is a resistance test. It's a heavy handed and unlikely to succeed at resistance test, but it is there. It's so likely to not be resisted that players should be warned ahead of time that it will, by probability, be developed in a MBW character.
I don't know of any groups who are willing to run with that, but now that it's been brought into the spotlight, I kinda do. Very Verhoeven.
I believe this is where most have been coming from.If the group is not playing with pathogen or disease rules to begin with, then no, there is no chance of developing TLE-x since it uses those rules. The OP wanted to know about the consequences and how they occur. If he's using those rules, that's how it occurs.
That isn't the case. It is merely a GM who does not wish to stick a player with a debilitating condition such as that without first consulting with the player and getting their cooperation and permission to do so. This is a VERY good thing.No one has suggested not talking to the player first. I believe he has stated, repeatedly, that talking to the player before implantation would be his method of choice. No one is saying that tossing the pathogen rules out is a horrible thing to do, we've just been pointing out that if they are used, TLE-x is a very probably outcome from MBW implants.
Okay, sorry, Pete.
You should read and quote - I know I did.
A fortunately rare problem among highly-cybered individuals, temporal lobe epilepsy with complications (TLE-x) is a chronic degenerative condition believed to be caused by neurological stress caused by excessive cyber implantation.
... temporal lobe epilepsy with complications is a chronic and degenerative neurological disorder resulting from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants)
Typically excessive cyberware implants. Especially move-by-wire implants. So ... yeah, there is a slight difference between 'higher risk factor' and 'especially this factor'.
A rare disease is defined as one that affects between 1 in 1500 people and 1 in 2500 people. As we're talking about a disease tied to highly-cybered individuals, that population ratio is taken of that subset of metahumanity rather than all of humanity. I have no arguement that a large number of the people who suffer from TLE-x also have the Move-By-Wire system. However you cannot reverse that statement (a large number of people who have the Move-By-Wire system also suffer from TLE-x) and still have it be true. It's not a transitative statement.Look over it again. It's not saying that a large number of people with TLE-x have Move-by-Wire systems. It's saying that the typical cause is excessive implantation, especially move-by-wire. It doesn't state that's the only way to get it. In fact, by using "typically" it confirms that it can be caused by other means. Anything causing extended neurological and metabolic stress can cause TLE-x.
Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?
]Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?
]Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?
Frankly I don't understand that logic. Hey guys stop talking in this thread so it doesn't get locked!
So I want to chip in my two cents here....
Basically what I have read for the entire day ( spent about that long during work ) is that one person is pretty darn harsh on his players for one ( possibly more ) particular piece of 'ware versus others. Now I understand the community wanting to defend his players virtue, assume they have any left, and tackle the troll for a lack of a better term. But how he runs his games is how he runs his games. Who cares what rules he fudges, enforces, or beats his players with? If they are ok with it, so be it. If not, flick the GM off on the way out the door.
Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world is all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussng or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.
Back on the discussion at hand I thought I'd just chime in and compliment PeterSmith on stating what I was trying to convey much more eloquently then i did. Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.
Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.
Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.TLE-x "typically results" from excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire. What causes the TLE-x problem? Excessive neurological and metabolic stress. What causes the excessive neurological and metabolic stress? Typically lots of cyberware, but especially those seizure devices known as MBW. Sure, MBW is not the cause of TLE-x, it's a cause of the conditions that cause TLE-x. Implanting it makes it easier to develop TLE-x. Just like smoking three packs a day makes it easier to get bronchitis and eventually lung cancer.
That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".If they've been told about the risk and take the implant, that is explicit permission.
Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world I could banish all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussing or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.
Hey, Lurker, I think you and I were actually in agreement for this thread for a change. *blinks* Anyone know where the thermometer measuring Hell's temperature is? I think we need to see if it's frozen...
Back on the discussion at hand I thought I'd just chime in and compliment PeterSmith on stating what I was trying to convey much more eloquently then i did. Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.
Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world I could banish all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussing or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.Hey, Lurker, I think you and I were actually in agreement for this thread for a change. *blinks* Anyone know where the thermometer measuring Hell's temperature is? I think we need to see if it's frozen...
Well, at least there is some agreement on something, even if it is completely irrelevant from the topic at hand. However, I see less posts involving small agreements about little things, and more posts involving what I like to imagine is a bunch of people sitting across a table screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT CAUSE OF BLAH DE BLAH." And the funny thing about these topics are that they enevitably drag everyone into the thread to see who the hell is screaming about whatever. Even if they don't care about the topic in the first place, they might stick around just to see what happens next, like what I'm doing right now, as if it was a horrific car crash. So, yes, I guess you could say I'm a thread vulture. Maybe the thread would be better without my comments and opinions that don't give anything to the topic at hand, particularly right now. But I suppose that I should let you two know this; if my comments about how this thread has become just another gripefest between people who cannot live and let live allows other, quieter, more agreeable posters to get fed up with the fighting, seize this thread and get this topic back into a POSITIVE DIRECTION in order to have people try to reach an agreement in order to not deal with the loud, uncopromising extremes, then I'll be happy to be productive and helpful, or even leave. Generally, I find that it makes for less gripefests all around the board, and allows the new posters a chance to ask questions, rather then get shoved out onto the sidelines or leaving due to fear of accedentally starting a flamewar. Speaking of that, I'm wondering where wildeyes went while this was going on. I hope we didn't scare him off...
Rest assured, lurkeroutthere and All4BigGuns, I will not post on this topic again. I figure I should give you guys that much. I'm still going to watch, because frankly, I feel like looking, and I see no reason to stop. Just keep it in mind.
Well, at least there is some agreement on something, even if it is completely irrelevant from the topic at hand. However, I see less posts involving small agreements about little things, and more posts involving what I like to imagine is a bunch of people sitting across a table screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT CAUSE OF BLAH DE BLAH." And the funny thing about these topics are that they inevitably drag everyone into the thread to see who the hell is screaming about whatever.
Rest assured, lurkeroutthere and All4BigGuns, I will not post on this topic again. I figure I should give you guys that much. I'm still going to watch, because frankly, I feel like looking, and I see no reason to stop. Just keep it in mind.
Look all you want, participate all you want, but don't nominate yourself debate proctor or impromptu moderator.
That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".If they've been told about the risk and take the implant, that is explicit permission.
That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".If they've been told about the risk and take the implant, that is explicit permission.
I suppose that when you nail it down, I agree with both of these statements - because they're not mutually exclusive. At my table, MBW has (still has) TLE-x has a highly-likely side-effect, etc. etc.. Any player who wants to take MBW will get told about that side-effect, just like any player who wants to play a hacker running hot is going to be told about Black IC and what it can do to the inside of your head. They will be asked, "Are you sure?" when they decide to implant (or jack in). They do so. When, down the line, they run into TLE-x or Black IC for whatever reason, they will do what they have always done: groan, fight it (if it's Black IC) and, either way, ask how to solve the problem that's cropped up in their lives, i.e. brain damage. And the solution will be there, as it is.
I don't have a problem - have never had a problem - with either Lurker or A4BG asking the player's permission; that's the way they play it. When it comes down to it, that's the way I play it, just with some lag time between 'asking permission/giving them the warning' and 'they get the disease'. My issues have been with their argument that MBW is not the leading cause of TLE-x. Wells' metaphor of lung cancer and 3 packs a day is a good one for my purposes; your grandmother may not ever actually get lung cancer from her 3-packs smoking, but that's by-god unlikely.
... and yes, Hell has frozen over; I agree with A4BG and Lurker regarding Twitchy-D and Kat9's whinging. There's been no cussing, no insults, nothing - and they aren't the hall monitor. That's why we have FastJack, and he hasn't even come around with the megaphone to warn us yet, mostly because we've been debating about the actual books, and not, y'know - insulting each other. Which would be the metaphor for shouting and cursing and everything. Sorry, Twitchy, Kat.
Worloch, the reason why when TLE-X mentions "Especially Move by wire" is because of how the system works.Yeah, I can see the "fluff" link - the point I was trying to bring across with my post was more along the lines of, as a new player, I don't have any 'baggage'. I'm not carrying around several editions worth of fluff and mechanics - what I see is what I see, without a context that may or may not be intended by the writers.
It, essentially, puts you into an epileptic seizure controlled by the ware. Personally, I have always believed the
problem is more issues with the ware that gradually increase over time. As an epileptic myself, who is aware during
seizures, there is nothing scarier then being aware while you cannot control your body. This is very much how I see
TLE-x caused by Move by Wire to be...
The biggest issue I have seen in this thread is: Is TLE-X caused by Move-by-wire inevitable or is it a Boogeyman of the
ware? Personally, I have always considered it inevitable on older versions(previous editions) of the MBW, but it has
gotten less likely as the ware has refined itself so that, today, MBW does have it as a risk, and it is the LEADING
cause of the problem. However, it is no-where near inevitable. In fact, the odds of a PC getting it are almost
nil because they are PCs, and thus are automatically exceptional. Now, if you take MbW and Unlucky and/or Sensitive Neural
Structure? You are going to get a talking to about the risk of TLE-X, and told I will be making an Body+Edge check every
month for their character. However, if they do not have that sort trait combination with it? It is a fluff risk.
This is one reason why I feel that players SHOULD be aware of as many of the rules as possible. But according to a straight reading of the rules, Move-By-Wire (a rare piece of cyberware) is a, if not the, leading cause of TLE-x (a rare disease/condition).
Do you inflict it on them for other Cyberware? What is your threshold?I do, at a much slower rate. If they have over 3 essence worth of DNI controlled ware (what I consider to be excessive cyberware based on the everyday norm), I have them check1/year. Every part of a point over adds to the number of times per year i make them roll. So with up to 4 points it would be 2/year (1/6 months) at up to 5 points 3/year (1/4 months) and up to 6 points 4/year (1/3 months). Keep in mind, that's only DNI controlled cyberware.
The main point still remains that as debilitating it is to the character, the player should be completely 100% on board with developing it--and no taking the implant despite such a 'warning' is still not giving permission or being on board no matter how much Wyrm wants to think it is.
taking the implant despite such a 'warning' is still not giving permission or being on board no matter how much Wyrm wants to think it is.Yes, it is. If you're told that the implant does that, then you accept it when you take the implant. It's no different than being on board with the bonus to IP, Reaction, Dodge or the Skillwires it gives.
So, every single time your character is in a firefight you have to give the GM permission to shoot at your character?
If it involves changing the character then yes explicit permission should be required (and the addition of a quality like that one is a drastic change to the character).Which is given, when the player agrees to play the game. Bottom line. That's the entire point of having rules to the game. The GM has no more obligation to ask the player for additional permission than the player has to ask GM for additional permission to use the agreed rules of the game.
Or the GM is using the disease rule in the book. I guess the Grognards wrote Augmentation. Disagree with that all you want, but it's there, and saying I'm using this is all the warning a player needs. If the player plays that means the player agrees to play by those rules, permission has been granted.
It has nothing to do with screwing the player, it's a play style choice. You don't like any play style that doesn't coddle the players, we all get that by now, that doesn't make people wrong for using other play styles. The rules are there to be used. If the player isn't willing to explore suffering TLE-x, they shouldn't take excessive cyberware or MbW systems, is a perfectly valid play style as well. Some players like to overcome overwhelming challenge instead of being coddled.
We can and must assume that there is some advanced medical
tech involved in cyberware given how, other wise, every street sam would be taking a pill cocktail to avoid
their body rejecting all the ware.
And how the frak do you get "coddling" from expecting the players to be able to maintain complete control over their characters rather than having to worry about them getting changed on a whim by a piss-poor GM?Asking permission to use already agreed upon rules to affect a character. That's how. Everything in the game is in complete control of the character/player. Don't want to get infected? Don't take the job in ghoul territory. Took the job and got bit? Face infection. Wait...what...GM is supposed to ask permission to impose infection rules on character that got bit after venturing into ghoul territory.
And of course, my point is that though the links are fragmented it is mechanically in place, and that though the PCs may be 'special', they aren't immune, and that TLE-x is more than just a 'fluff' piece that no PC needs to worry about unless he's bored and wants to add a potentially-debilitating anyeurism to his character's life. Yes, the samurai with delta-grade wired reflexes, skillwires, and whatever other DNI cyberware he can cram into his body is going to run the risk. This is one reason why I feel that players SHOULD be aware of as many of the rules as possible. But according to a straight reading of the rules, Move-By-Wire (a rare piece of cyberware) is a, if not the, leading cause of TLE-x (a rare disease/condition).Don't think because I said 'fluff' that I think it is unimportant. I use that term to distinguish setting materials that are more nebulous in nature versus game mechanics that are more static and discreet - 'crunch'.
It's different at each table, I'm certain.
And thank you to Wells, whom I have quoted here responding to me, stating basically exactly what I pointed out above. He has interpreted the fluffy bits "excessive cyberwear" as being ">3 essence worth of DNI ware", and put together a system that works for him based on the rules, and hopefully, has communicated this to his players, as there is absolutely no way they would know this from just reading the books - This has to come from communication from the GM.QuoteDo you inflict it on them for other Cyberware? What is your threshold?I do, at a much slower rate. If they have over 3 essence worth of DNI controlled ware (what I consider to be excessive cyberware based on the everyday norm), I have them check1/year. Every part of a point over adds to the number of times per year i make them roll. So with up to 4 points it would be 2/year (1/6 months) at up to 5 points 3/year (1/4 months) and up to 6 points 4/year (1/3 months). Keep in mind, that's only DNI controlled cyberware.
When I have them check, I have them make an edge test with a threshold equal to the number of times per year they have to check (-1 if they're on AEXD). If they fail, they begin having to fight TLE-x once per month using the normal rules for fighting it.
I agree completely, Mirikon, and that's my policy. Unfortunately, All4BigGuns especially believes that not only should they be warned before they take the totem/cyberwear/whatever, but that explicit permission should be obtained by the Game Master to inflict a condition he's already warned about just before he inflicts it. And, in fact, he'd walk away from a table where that wasn't taking place, and apparently is astonished that other players wouldn't as well, and claims that they should.
*shrugs* At this point, well - ludicrous speed has been reached.
If the GM is wanting to take control of my character like that, hells yeah, I'll walk away from that game (that's not to say I won't go for another game later though). The whole point is that the player should have total control over their character, and a GM deciding to put the risk in to arbitrarily add a Negative Quality the player did not choose which has no mechanics to determine when to make checks or how often to make checks other than GM decision is little more than a barely veiled attempt at a power trip and say "Dance my little puppets! Dance!".
I find it more than a little ridiculous how you and your few, but very vocal, supporters seem to equate not wanting something that is covered by a quality added to a character without consent with saying that the claim is permission is needed to be shot at or catching the diseases printed that have clear and printed mechanical onset times and roll intervals. The point is that there is a quality for TLE-x and no clearly laid out onset time or roll interval for it, thus as JAD stated, it's all in GM Fiat as to when. This is repugnant. I am merely saying that for that specific case it should simply be take the quality and have it, don't take it and don't worry about it.Please point out where in the books it gives you the time interval for A) how often a character gets shot, and B) how often a character gets exposed to malaria.
I find it more than a little ridiculous how you and your few, but very vocal, supporters seem to equate not wanting something that is covered by a quality added to a character without consent with saying that the claim is permission is needed to be shot at or catching the diseases printed that have clear and printed mechanical onset times and roll intervals. The point is that there is a quality for TLE-x and no clearly laid out onset time or roll interval for it, thus as JAD stated, it's all in GM Fiat as to when. This is repugnant. I am merely saying that for that specific case it should simply be take the quality and have it, don't take it and don't worry about it.
Basically, what it comes down to is that I feel that the GM should be held to an even more stringent standard of following the rules as written than even the players. And before you ask, yes I do in fact hold myself to that standard whenever I run. If the players can't do something (example: just "ruling" that such-and-such happens) then neither can I as GM. It's only fair.
Whatever. I will only say ONE final thing. It is supported by FLUFF not by RULES. Point to a place where it definitively states onset times and intervals for rolls against for that disease. Oh! You can't, because as someone pointed out already, it only lists "Special" with no explanation as to what special is, so no it is not supported by Rules.
Which means the GM looks at the fluff of it and decides how, at his table, it will be handled.
Myself: I consider that it needs some other factor applied then just the 'ware mentioned. However, what that
other factor is will vary by character story. It is something that, frankly, I will rarely even make the player have
to roll for, because it would rarely show up at my table. However, I do consider MbW to be an increased risk
factor for it. Not that MbW causes it. But that it is an increased risk factor.
Personally, though, All4BigGuns, I think your issue is not that there is something that is not spelled out explicitly
how often rolls need to be made. I think it is because you have had experiences with Bad GMs who delight in
torturing the PCs and players, rather then looking at things from the perspective of "what makes a good story?"
You are PARTIALLY right that a GM *SHOULD* discuss something like that with the player. It is one of those things
that touches on matters that can be personal for a player. I know, for example, that I never put MbW on a character
I plan to play....because the concept of the ware weirds me out as an epileptic myself. However, if a GM told me
that I was going to contract TLE-X in game, I would work with him on developing the trigger list. Why? Because I am
here for the story of my character, and having a believable trigger list a) helps the GM and b) helps me keep the story
straight. At the same time, I fully understand that not every player can handle the same things I can. As a GM, it is
my job to be able to know where a player's limits are and NOT cross that line. As a player, my job is to work WITH the
GM to tell a better story. As a player and GM, I must fully acknowledge and accept that In-Character Decisions have
In-Character Consequences. If you insult or mock your fixer, then the GM does NOT need your permission to have the
Fixer screw you over. If you take wares and the GM warns you at chargen that you are putting yourself at risk for TLE-X,
and you choose to take no actions to minimize your risk, then the GM does not need to get your permission to give you
TLE-X. HOWEVER, the GM has the responsibility to measure up if you could deal with having that, and working with you
on the onset, triggers, and methods of suppressing the triggering.
Okay, with what you're saying that's fine (with the caveat of not crossing that line with a player that isn't comfortable with such things). My problem was that Wyrm was seemingly saying that it should be done to everyone without hesitation or consideration for the player's comfort level.
[Words]
And actually, I have pretty much everyone behind me on this one, because I've explained myself, people realize that 'hey, he isn't just slapping people out of the blue, and y'know, this isn't something I'd need to spend karma on to get rid of because it's not a Quality.'
[A lot more words]
Whatever. I will only say ONE final thing. It is supported by FLUFF not by RULES. Point to a place where it definitively states onset times and intervals for rolls against for that disease. Oh! You can't, because as someone pointed out already, it only lists "Special" with no explanation as to what special is, so no it is not supported by Rules.
If a character develops TLE-x, she does not manifest symptoms immediately; instead, she becomes subject to acute epilepticThere is no onset or interval. You fail your test, you develop TLE-x and are then subject to the effects anytime you have to resist seizures and fail that roll as well.
seizures in stressful situations. When in appropriately stressful circumstances, the gamemaster may call the TLE-x victim to make
a Body + Willpower (3) Test. If the test fails, the character suffers a seizure, and the “disease” effects above kick in.
Speedapplies to TLE-x despite:
A pathogen’s Speed represents the incubation period between initial exposure and the first Disease Resistance Test. It also represents its period of effect—how long before the effects kick in again, and another Disease Resistance Test must be made.
The number in parentheses is the minimum number of Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have been made.
Technically not a pathogenand
follows much the same rules
Currently, there are a plethora of qualities to represent neural damage, buggy 'ware, or people whose systems have been thown out of whack, one way or another, by their extensive augmentations. If a character does not take one of those qualities, then I would not apply any of those penalties. Unless your game has the optional rules for buggy second-hand 'ware, cyberware damage, and so on. If so, I hope you also use the optional rules for things like magic loss and acquiring geasa during play, to keep it fair for everyone.
And if, in-game, you implant something second-hand or buggy, you believe you shouldn't get the penalty? Yes, I play with magic loss and geasa; that's also part and parcel of the big SR world, and has been since I started playing 1e1p. I actually do not usually play out how much damage accrues to cybernetics due to combat, etc.; the specific issue with MBW is (and has been) so significant that it does get highlighted and used as being the downside to this incredibly fash piece of 'ware.Currently, there are a plethora of qualities to represent neural damage, buggy 'ware, or people whose systems have been thown out of whack, one way or another, by their extensive augmentations. If a character does not take one of those qualities, then I would not apply any of those penalties. Unless your game has the optional rules for buggy second-hand 'ware, cyberware damage, and so on. If so, I hope you also use the optional rules for things like magic loss and acquiring geasa during play, to keep it fair for everyone.
This. A thousand times this. I'm so tired of cyber getting dumped on at times while bioware and magic seeming to get a pass.
even though he innately agrees to 'GM-defined crunchy bit' when he implants the MBWI think a lot of this goes into "your table may vary", and most of us have already acknowledged this, especially with an acknowledgement of the necessity of communication and the general assumption of Shadowrun (even most RPGs in general) being cooperative experiences between all the players and GM. Here specifically I think that you're putting words into other people's mouths. You've said that the way you GM it is that TLE-x is part and parcel of your game - if it's your table, your call, that in and of itself is fine. It's not necessity for all tables to use that stance; flexibility of the system is an intelligent part of any RPG system which allows a variety of styles and stories to be told.