NEWS

Consequences of Move By Wire

  • 143 Replies
  • 34752 Views

Mad Hamish

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 162
« Reply #75 on: <11-27-12/0107:00> »
TLE-x is a _possible_ consequence of MBW. It is not guaranteed in 4th edition.
It is not said that it is a high frequency rate side effect of MBW, just that they are more likely to cause it than other ware.

Sure you can add negative qualities to characters after character generation but it's drawing a long bow to suggest that everyone with MBW will get TLE-x in SR4.

Augmentation Addict, Biosystem Overstress, Buggy Ware, Cyberpsychosis, High Maintenance Implant, Implant Induced Immune Deficiency, Mystery Mod Noise etc could all happen to a character after creation, however they aren't automatically applied.

WellsIDidIt

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #76 on: <11-27-12/0300:04> »
What is the power of TLE-x?
TLE-x has a power of 5.
How do you resist that power?
By the standard disease/toxin/pathogen rules, you resist using you Body.

That said, there is some ambiguity in the TLE-x entry and the drug AEXD entry. The drug mentions adding 3 dice to your Body+Willpower test to "resist developing TLE-x." The TLE-x entry only mentions making a Body+Willpower test to avoid a seizure (meaning you already have TLE-x) and states that AEXD only works until onset of the disease.

This gives us a credible reason to allow resistance using Body+Willpower to help reduce the high power of the disease.

I either case (Body or Body+Willpower) a character that is taking his regular doses of AEXD gets a +3 to his resistance test.

How often do you resist that power?
Hazy at best on a first read. The drug must be taken every week. That doesn't necessarily mean that the disease must be resisted every week. The only other time referred to in either entry is "stressful situations" but making a player resist the disease onset in every stressful situation seems heavy handed for a combat aug. Between the two, I think most GMs would go with per week.
How much of that power do you have to resist to not get TLE-x?
As with all diseases, pathogens and toxins, you must resist all five of the power in order to not develop TLE-x. This means that on average you will need 15 dice. With the drug that means you need an average of 6 in both attributes (or 12 in body if your GM doesn't agree with the Body+Willpower ruling) to have an average chance of resisting the disease.
What happens when you don't resist enough of that power?
You gain TLE-x. Congratulations. Whenever you're in a stressful situation and the GM decides it's applicable, you make a Body+Willpower(3) Test to avoid flopping around like a fish.

So where does this leave us?
Quote
TLE-x is a _possible_ consequence of MBW. It is not guaranteed in 4th edition.
Not guaranteed no, but it is a possible and probably consequence of MBW going strictly by the rules.
Quote
It is not said that it is a high frequency rate side effect of MBW, just that they are more likely to cause it than other ware.
"(typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants)" TLE-x is typically gained from heavy cybernetic augmentation. It's "especially" gained from MBW. It is heavily implied that MBW is a leading cause of TLE-x. Ignore as you wish, but past fluff and current rules both imply this heavily.
Quote
Augmentation Addict, Biosystem Overstress, Buggy Ware, Cyberpsychosis, High Maintenance Implant, Implant Induced Immune Deficiency, Mystery Mod Noise etc could all happen to a character after creation, however they aren't automatically applied.
TLE-x isn't automatically applied. There is a resistance test. It's a heavy handed and unlikely to succeed at resistance test, but it is there. It's so likely to not be resisted that players should be warned ahead of time that it will, by probability, be developed in a MBW character.
Quote
I don't know of any groups who are willing to run with that, but now that it's been brought into the spotlight, I kinda do. Very Verhoeven.
Quote
I believe this is where most have been coming from.
If the group is not playing with pathogen or disease rules to begin with, then no, there is no chance of developing TLE-x since it uses those rules. The OP wanted to know about the consequences and how they occur. If he's using those rules, that's how it occurs.
Quote
That isn't the case. It is merely a GM who does not wish to stick a player with a debilitating condition such as that without first consulting with the player and getting their cooperation and permission to do so. This is a VERY good thing.
No one has suggested not talking to the player first. I believe he has stated, repeatedly, that talking to the player before implantation would be his method of choice. No one is saying that tossing the pathogen rules out is a horrible thing to do, we've just been pointing out that if they are used, TLE-x is a very probably outcome from MBW implants.

PeterSmith

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
« Reply #77 on: <11-27-12/1024:34> »
Okay, sorry, Pete.

First off, my name is Peter. Please use that.

You should read and quote - I know I did.

I did. You focused on the disease listing, I looked at both aspects of the condition: the disease and the Negative Quality.

Quote from: Augmentation, p.22
A fortunately rare problem among highly-cybered individuals, temporal lobe epilepsy with complications (TLE-x) is a chronic degenerative condition believed to be caused by neurological stress caused by excessive cyber implantation.

Quote from: Augmentation, p.132
... temporal lobe epilepsy with complications is a chronic and degenerative neurological disorder resulting from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants)

Typically excessive cyberware implants.  Especially move-by-wire implants.  So ... yeah, there is a slight difference between 'higher risk factor' and 'especially this factor'.

A rare disease is defined as one that affects between 1 in 1500 people and 1 in 2500 people. As we're talking about a disease tied to highly-cybered individuals, that population ratio is taken of that subset of metahumanity rather than all of humanity. I have no arguement that a large number of the people who suffer from TLE-x also have the Move-By-Wire system. However you cannot reverse that statement (a large number of people who have the Move-By-Wire system also suffer from TLE-x) and still have it be true. It's not a transitative statement.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

WellsIDidIt

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #78 on: <11-27-12/1055:11> »
Quote
A rare disease is defined as one that affects between 1 in 1500 people and 1 in 2500 people. As we're talking about a disease tied to highly-cybered individuals, that population ratio is taken of that subset of metahumanity rather than all of humanity. I have no arguement that a large number of the people who suffer from TLE-x also have the Move-By-Wire system. However you cannot reverse that statement (a large number of people who have the Move-By-Wire system also suffer from TLE-x) and still have it be true. It's not a transitative statement.
Look over it again. It's not saying that a large number of people with TLE-x have Move-by-Wire systems. It's saying that the typical cause is excessive implantation, especially move-by-wire. It doesn't state that's the only way to get it. In fact, by using "typically" it confirms that it can be caused by other means. Anything causing extended neurological and metabolic stress can cause TLE-x.

Also keep in mind, it's never stated to be a rare disease, it says it's a rare problem among highly-cybered individuals. How common are move-by-wire systems? They're cutting edge, expensive, reknown for having "issues", and everything they do can be achieved with other ware. Seems like a move-by-wired individual would be pretty rare to me, and has an augmentation that is specifically called out as the typical cause of TLE-x.

Now let me ask you this, when sitting at the clinic having some new cybernetics put in, who is the street doc most likely to refer AEXD too?

A) The guy getting move-by-wire (known to be a leading cause of TLE-x).
B) The guy getting Wired Reflexes 2
C) The guy getting a datajack and internal commlink

Why?

Kat9

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #79 on: <11-27-12/1237:13> »
Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #80 on: <11-27-12/1504:14> »
Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?

Probably best for this one to get locked.  And very, very quickly.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Twitchy D

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
  • Paranoia is a survival trait.
« Reply #81 on: <11-27-12/1544:10> »
It's probably for the best now... This poor thread's gone to the dark side of discussion and debate...

(plays Taps on a trumpet...)

Darth_DMicus

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 7
« Reply #82 on: <11-27-12/1855:31> »
So I want to chip in my two cents here....

Basically what I have read for the entire day ( spent about that long during work ) is that one person is pretty darn harsh on his players for one ( possibly more ) particular piece of 'ware versus others. Now I understand the community wanting to defend his players virtue, assume they have any left, and tackle the troll for a lack of a better term. But how he runs his games is how he runs his games. Who cares what rules he fudges, enforces, or beats his players with? If they are ok with it, so be it. If not, flick the GM off on the way out the door.

Personally I have kept up with the game since 2nd Ed and do remember the old 3rd ed Move by Wire systems. That one was much more powerful than this one in SR4, thus the imposed negative quality. But you will note that nothing "requires" you to take a negative quality or have "issues" with and I think the designers did that for game balance. So I can get a Cyber torso plus two cyber arms at 12 strength as a human and all I have to do is pay nuyen and essence? ( I know 12 is too much but the point stands ). All the other Cyber and Bioware allow you do some pretty insane things but this one should screw you since it used to in a older version even though they toned it down? I think Wyrm is just "stuck" on the old point. He probably did not like it then and does not like it now. Sometimes I hit the same rut with my guys. I look at some rules or spells ( we are finishing up a D&D game before we start this groups first  SR4 campaign ) and go HOLY #$%^$ that's too powerful! But since our personalities mesh pretty darn well ( though we all like to be right ) they will argue till they are blue in the face about balance and why it is balanced. This forces me to step back, re-evaluate what they bring to the table and make sure I did not overreact or am biased in some way. None of them force the group to "vote" on descisions but they all weigh in, trusting my judgement in the end.

The trick to the game is to make it fun for all, not just what the GM thinks is right. At least that is what I think.


lurkeroutthere

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
« Reply #83 on: <11-27-12/1909:34> »
]Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?

Frankly I don't understand that logic. Hey guys stop talking in this thread so it doesn't get locked!

"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

Kat9

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #84 on: <11-27-12/1925:40> »
]Really guys, can we please avoid another thread getting locked?

Frankly I don't understand that logic. Hey guys stop talking in this thread so it doesn't get locked!

I have no problem explaining at all. Its not "Hey guys stop talking on this thread," its "hey guys, I know you two have two different play styles, we've seen it expressed on several different threads. You two also get a bit heated when you two start posting and counter posting. Eventually it devolves into an argument and the threads get locked."

So I want to chip in my two cents here....

Basically what I have read for the entire day ( spent about that long during work ) is that one person is pretty darn harsh on his players for one ( possibly more ) particular piece of 'ware versus others. Now I understand the community wanting to defend his players virtue, assume they have any left, and tackle the troll for a lack of a better term. But how he runs his games is how he runs his games. Who cares what rules he fudges, enforces, or beats his players with? If they are ok with it, so be it. If not, flick the GM off on the way out the door.


That help explain it a bit better?
« Last Edit: <11-27-12/1928:00> by Kat9 »

Twitchy D

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
  • Paranoia is a survival trait.
« Reply #85 on: <11-27-12/1946:47> »
So it's more of a "Could you guys stop reminding the rest of us that you don't agree with each other and stop flooding the thread with posts that really won't help your stance in the first place?" post? Because if it's that sort of request, I completely agree with you.

Really, the whole thing boils down to "I think the DM should have control over (certain part of a game) over the player" and the logical reverse. Being repeated for about six or seven days. I really do not think that an arguement over a tabletop game really warrents seven days worth of back and forth debate for a rule that likely was made to be unspecific for the sake of the players needs. It's like having a fall out with a friend over how much Monopoly money you traded for his railroad on a drunken friday night playing boardgames: not really worth fighting over in the long run.

lurkeroutthere

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
« Reply #86 on: <11-27-12/2239:02> »
Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world I could banish all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussing or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.

Back on the discussion at hand I thought I'd just chime in and compliment PeterSmith on stating what I was trying to convey much more eloquently then i did. Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.

« Last Edit: <11-27-12/2246:32> by lurkeroutthere »
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #87 on: <11-27-12/2241:33> »
Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world is all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussng or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.

Back on the discussion at hand I thought I'd just chime in and compliment PeterSmith on stating what I was trying to convey much more eloquently then i did. Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.

Hey, Lurker, I think you and I were actually in agreement for this thread for a change. *blinks* Anyone know where the thermometer measuring Hell's temperature is? I think we need to see if it's frozen...
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Kat9

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #88 on: <11-27-12/2259:45> »
Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.

Nah, but I'd walk over and tell people if they were being a loud mouthed bag of dicks and disrupting other people's games just so they could enjoy hissing and spitting at each other.

That said, you got your wish boss, leaving the thread.

WellsIDidIt

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #89 on: <11-28-12/0015:39> »
Quote
Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.
TLE-x "typically results" from excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire. What causes the TLE-x problem? Excessive neurological and metabolic stress. What causes the excessive neurological and metabolic stress? Typically lots of cyberware, but especially those seizure devices known as MBW. Sure, MBW is not the cause of TLE-x, it's a cause of the conditions that cause TLE-x. Implanting it makes it easier to develop TLE-x. Just like smoking three packs a day makes it easier to get bronchitis and eventually lung cancer.

Call it a risk factor, cause, whatever you want. There are still rules, clearly in SR4, for developing it. Those rules specifically give a shout out to Move-by-Wire. Move-by-Wire is the only cyberware specifically mentioned by those rules. The emphasis seems pretty clear, even when ignoring fluff from past editions.

So it comes down to a matter of whether it fits the given GMs play style. That's it. Each GM makes their own style of play, every player has their own preferred style of play. If they're having fun, it's not wrong. Might be funny, odd, weird, etc. to others who play differently, but still not wrong. By the rules of the game though, MBW does have a connection with TLE-x, which does have rules for enforcing on players after character creation, and does have rules for being resisted and cured.

Again, street doc is marketing AEXD. Who is he going to hassle most? The move-by-wire patient, wired reflexes guy, or the dude with the datajack and internal link?