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Cheap guns.

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JustADude

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« Reply #15 on: <10-23-12/1852:30> »
Also, there's something else I forgot to factor in: many gangers are orcs and trolls, who have high strength and thus innate recoil compensation. That would make cheaper guns more viable without upping their price.

A majority of the higher-tier, specialized gun monkies... er, street samurai... would also be Orks/Trolls, which creates the distinct possibility of them having Strength 10+, since you just need Base 5 + S.Thy + M.Aug 4, and even Alphaware M.Aug 4 won't break the bank.

That means even more "natural" RC, which makes the El Cheapo guns even more attractive.
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FuelDrop

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« Reply #16 on: <10-23-12/1950:07> »
Also, there's something else I forgot to factor in: many gangers are orcs and trolls, who have high strength and thus innate recoil compensation. That would make cheaper guns more viable without upping their price.

A majority of the higher-tier, specialized gun monkies... er, street samurai... would also be Orks/Trolls, which creates the distinct possibility of them having Strength 10+, since you just need Base 5 + S.Thy + M.Aug 4, and even Alphaware M.Aug 4 won't break the bank.

That means even more "natural" RC, which makes the El Cheapo guns even more attractive.
Nothing wrong with muscle replacement if you're a gunslinger on a budget. Granted it's essence heavy, but for a gang leader forking out 20 grand to buff out and improve your accuracy is totally worthwhile.
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Critias

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« Reply #17 on: <10-23-12/2152:55> »
I do imagine there's a bit of difference, though, between a major power, like the Ancients or First Nations, and a typical street gang.
Oh, hell yes.  The big gangs are more like PMC's themselves -- heck, literally, in fact, as some of the Ancients have been licensed as mercs and hire themselves out, legally, as paramilitary muscle.  You get into the higher tiers of some of the gangs, and you're talking more about low-tier mercenary outfits or something, really. 

Wakshaani

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« Reply #18 on: <10-25-12/1037:55> »
Oh lord yes. The big orgs, like the megas, have all kinds of training programs to churn out high-quality folks.

Unahim

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« Reply #19 on: <10-26-12/0514:38> »
Wait, I thought I remembered strength adding RC, but I couldn't find the rules for it anymore. Where's that again?

Redmercury

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« Reply #20 on: <10-26-12/0606:22> »
Arsenal, pg. 163.

Unahim

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« Reply #21 on: <10-26-12/2047:56> »
Thanks! Was looking in completely the wrong direction.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #22 on: <10-27-12/0928:26> »
From an experience point of view, I still feel like Strength is the wrong way to go for Recoil Compensation. What I've seen always points to more mass (Body) helping far far more than Strength. Obviously a higher strength character would have more mass than a weaker strength character of the same body, but it still seems odd that a body 2 strength 6 character handles a handcannon better than a body 4 strength 5 to me.

Then again, I think there should be a training quality that gives recoil compensation also. Something like Military Training 5/10: Each level of this quality gives you one recoil for Semi-Auto, Short Burst, and Long Burst attacks.

Leaving out full bursts, because no one trains full bursts anymore.

Noble Drake

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« Reply #23 on: <10-27-12/1642:37> »
From an experience point of view, I still feel like Strength is the wrong way to go for Recoil Compensation. What I've seen always points to more mass (Body) helping far far more than Strength. Obviously a higher strength character would have more mass than a weaker strength character of the same body, but it still seems odd that a body 2 strength 6 character handles a handcannon better than a body 4 strength 5 to me.

Then again, I think there should be a training quality that gives recoil compensation also. Something like Military Training 5/10: Each level of this quality gives you one recoil for Semi-Auto, Short Burst, and Long Burst attacks.

Leaving out full bursts, because no one trains full bursts anymore.
It was probably Strength that got the RC add-on because of something simple: Body is already important to every character, but Strength wasn't.

Back in 3rd edition where I first encountered the Strength recoil comp. rule, it was the only rule around (since I've never met anyone that cared to track every kilo of carried gear) that made gun toting mad-men even consider putting points into strength - before starting to use it, I saw a lot of troll & orc gunners with minimum strength, maxed out body, and maxed out quickness.

As for training based recoil compensation... isn't training (more dice in your dice pool) already pretty much the same thing?

Halancar

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« Reply #24 on: <10-29-12/1408:46> »
Coming back to the original discussion, you have to remember that your low-level ganger isn't really making a rational choice when he buys a gun, or at least not a rational choice based on the ability to kill people.

Your low-level ganger who, let's not forget, is almost certainly still a teenager full of hormones who grew up having to give way to anyone bigger than him or carrying a gun  (that's pretty much everyone), is looking to:
- have fun.
- get respect.

Shooting on full auto is great fun (yes, I know it's not a good way to hit something specific, but it is fun). Shooting on full auto will bring you the fear (and the ersatz respect that goes with it) of people who are afraid of getting shot. Showing off with a weapon capable of full auto will net you some of that fun without even having to shoot.

Oh, and least we forget, that low-level ganger is also on a budget, since he will be looking to buy a gun as soon as he can possibly afford it, and even if he can afford a better gun he'll still want to keep the extra for BTLs and drugs.

Reaver

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« Reply #25 on: <11-01-12/2350:25> »
From an experience point of view, I still feel like Strength is the wrong way to go for Recoil Compensation. What I've seen always points to more mass (Body) helping far far more than Strength. Obviously a higher strength character would have more mass than a weaker strength character of the same body, but it still seems odd that a body 2 strength 6 character handles a handcannon better than a body 4 strength 5 to me.

Then again, I think there should be a training quality that gives recoil compensation also. Something like Military Training 5/10: Each level of this quality gives you one recoil for Semi-Auto, Short Burst, and Long Burst attacks.

Leaving out full bursts, because no one trains full bursts anymore.

Thing with military training is they teach "firing discipline" which for most armies, means semi auto firing or what is known as 'double taps' ( firing 2 rounds quickly at center mass). Heck the US m16a3 assault rifle is only capable of 3 round bursts OR semi auto... Usually only their support weapons are fully auto... And those are used more in suppression fire technicques then to actually 'mow down' a group of people.

Just from firing my own weapons, I would have to say strength plays a better role the mass of the shooter. I'm a fairly active guy, weighing in at the 200lbs mark, and I work the in the electrical/instrumentation trade so my upper body strength is pretty good. My buddy is a high school teacher, tips the scales at the 340lbs mark and isn't active at all. At the range doing rapid tapping, I can place more lead in a smaller area then he can at a 75 yard target using the same weapon...  Course, neither one of us is firing at the rates of a shooter in SR... But I think it still applies.

How you are holding/bracing the weapon also makes a huge difference in accuracy and recoil comp as well... Keeping the rifle tight to the shoulder and a firm grip with 2 hands will give you much better control then 'underslinging' or hip firing. With pistols, a 2handed grip with the grip vertical to the ground will give you a more accurate shot and better recoil control... Which is totally different then the gangsta single hand sideways shooting most gutter punks employ. (cause, ya know, it looks kewl!).

Lastly, the design if the weapon plays a huge part in recoil.. If we limit the talk to just pistols, a revolver generally has LESS recoil then an semi-automatic smiply because part of the recoil of the semi-automatic is the ejection of the spent cartridge and the loading of the fresh round. In SR they allude to the fact that many weapons use 'caseless ammo' meaning that the propellant and the bullet are one item (as to it being the bullet, cartridge, propellant) thus eleminating the recoil caused by the slide loading the next round into the chamber (the slide would only be used to clear a misfire). Maybe that is taken into account in the RC codes for the weapons... I dunno
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ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #26 on: <11-02-12/0107:14> »
Coming back to the original discussion, you have to remember that your low-level ganger isn't really making a rational choice when he buys a gun, or at least not a rational choice based on the ability to kill people.

Some runners aren't either. This is a typical conversation with our Vor enforcer type.
"I want that one"
"But it sucks. You've got, like 3 rifles that do the same thing better."
"Yea, but this one is Russian[\i]."

PeterSmith

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« Reply #27 on: <11-02-12/0927:04> »
Maybe that is taken into account in the RC codes for the weapons... I dunno

I doubt it. The firearms section in SR4A states that weapons come in either cased or caseless ammo versions, with a preference towards caseless. If the ammo type mattered then we'd see two different RC values.
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