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Trying to figure out mystic adepts.

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RdMarquis

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« on: <03-01-13/0022:46> »
With not too much success, unfortunately. Seems like I keep running out of points. The following is what I have so far. He's based off my "regular" adept, who focuses on stealth and melee combat. How does everything look?

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 5
Public Awareness: 1
Human
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 9
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 2
REA: 3
STR: 2
CHA: 3
INT: 3
LOG: 5
WIL: 4
EDG: 2
MAG: 6

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                6
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         6
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         7
Matrix IP:                 2
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 2
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 2
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 4
Climbing                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 4
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Con                        : 0                      Pool: 2
Counterspelling            : 4 [Combat]             Pool: 7 (9)
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 4
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 4
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 4
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Dodge                      : 0                      Pool: 2
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 4
Etiquette                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Exotic Melee Weapon        : 4                      Pool: 11
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Flight                     : 0                      Pool: 1
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gymnastics                 : 4                      Pool: 10
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 4
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 11
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 2
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 2
Leadership                 : 0                      Pool: 2
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 2
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 6
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 2
Perception                 : 3                      Pool: 6
Pilot Ground Craft         : 0                      Pool: 2
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 2
Pistols                    : 1 [Semi-Automatics]    Pool: 6 (8)
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Running                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Spellcasting               : 6 [Health]             Pool: 9 (11)
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Swimming                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 4
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat             : 0                      Pool: 4

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Contacts ==
(4, 2)
(2, 2)
(2, 5)
(3, 6)

== Qualities ==
Bad Rep
Day Job (20 hrs/week)
Dependent (Nuisance)
Mentor Spirit (Dragon)
Mystic Adept
SINner (Standard) (Ares)
The Magician's Way

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Wuxing, Resist Drain with WIL + LOG (9))
Improved Invisibility      DV: (F÷2)+1
Increase [Attribute] (LOG) DV: (F÷2)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Influence                  DV: (F÷2)+1

== Powers ==
Improved Ability (Combat) (Exotic Melee Weapon ()) Rating: 2
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Infiltration) Rating: 2
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Gymnastics) Rating: 1
Mind Over Matter (AGI)

== Lifestyles ==
Riley's Apartment  1 months
   Comforts:      Low
   Entertainment: Low
   Necessities:   Low
   Neighborhood:  Low
   Security:      Low
   Qualities:     Crash Pad [-1LP]
                  Green Plan [-1LP]
                  Rough Neighborhood [-1LP]

== Armor ==
Urban Explorer Jumpsuit   6/6
   +Biomonitor
   +Ruthenium Polymer Coating

== Weapons ==
Ares Predator IV
   +Smartgun System
   Pool: 8 (10)   DV: 5P   AP: -1   RC: 0
Monofilament Whip
   Pool: 0   DV: 8P   AP: -4   RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 4   DV: 1S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Meta Link (0, 1, 1, 2)
   +Vector Xim
   +Suite: Basic User [Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2]
   +Trodes
   +AR Gloves
   +Sim Module (Cold)
Transys Avalon (4, 3, 3, 4)
   +Iris Orb
   +Suite: Pro User [Analyze 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4]
   +Trodes
   +Sim Module (Cold)
   +AR Gloves
   +Subvocal Microphone
   +Mapsoft (Current City) Rating 6

== Gear ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Heavy Pistols) x50
Autopicker Rating 6
Certified Credstick, Standard
Earbuds Rating 3
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
Fake License (Magic) Rating 4
Fake License (Foci) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Shane Matthews) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Mark Bradley) Rating 1
Goggles Rating 5
   +Smartlink
   +Image Link
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Vision Magnification
   +Flare Compensation
Medkit Rating 6
   +Medkit Supplies
Respirator Rating 5
Sustaining Focus (Health) (Bonded Foci) Rating 3
Sustaining Focus (Health) (Bonded Foci) Rating 3
Sustaining Focus (Illusion) (Bonded Foci) Rating 3
Water Purification Tablet x3

UmaroVI

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« Reply #1 on: <03-01-13/0030:04> »
I think you're on a reasonable track, at least. Some questions before I offer specific advice:

Are you familiar with Heightened Concentration? How does your GM (or you, if this is a thought experiment character) think it works?

How does your GM (or you) think maximum force of spells/spirits for Mystic Adepts works?

That is a lot of contacts and as you have noticed, Mystic Adepts are very tight on points. Are you willing to cut anything there?

Are you morally opposed to taking 'ware on this character?

Makki

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« Reply #2 on: <03-01-13/0311:09> »
Mystic Adepts only really work when focussing on either Adept + little magic or Magician + a little powers and no astral.
An even split of Magic doesn't work well.

bdyer

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« Reply #3 on: <03-01-13/0716:13> »
A couple of notes:

What is the 2nd sustaining health focus for?  A force 3 can sustain the Increased reflexes but to cast the logic spell the force of the spell must equal or exceed your current attribute so a force 3 won't work for your log enchancement

Why pistols skill? Your whip is extremely concealable and I think that's what you would use in any situation where concealablity is needed

Is your character going to be walking around with goggles on all the time?  Use contact lenses for the smart link then glasses for vision enh

Here's what I would do
Drop agi and char and str to 1
Increase reaction to 5 and bod to 4
Grab increase charisma for yourself or for the party face when in social situations
Drop 1 level of increased gym for Increase attribute (reaction) and 1 level for increase attibute(str) that should statisfy the few times you need str
Increase edge to 3
Drop increase exotic melee weapon adept power and grab heighten conc for at least a unlimited force sustaining foci (equiv)
 Make your monofilament whip a weapon focus force 1 or 2
Grab some more utility spells like levitate
Lighten on contacts and increase your gun skill to 3 or 4
Grab the quality made man for an uber contact and trade a .25 power point for susantance to counter the time for  it
Make sure to add personalized grip and maybe some other mods to ur whip
Don't forget some fetishes to get +2 to drain resistance
« Last Edit: <03-01-13/0833:31> by bdyer »

emsquared

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« Reply #4 on: <03-01-13/1100:30> »
The simple fact is the build you're going for (which appears to ultimately be an infiltration/melee character - i.e. a magical ninja - all spells and powers are geared around these two end roles) is a very (VERY) expensive one - any MystAd is expensive. To be very honest, I've never found what a Mystic Adept does, that either being just a Magician or just an Adept can't do better, but that's perhaps a matter for another thread. Let's try and get you the PC you want.

If you're trying to economize BP, you have a couple big inefficiencies in the burning of a lot of BP (15) hard-maxing your MAG, and as mentioned by others you def have way too many contacts for this build.

I want to address some of bdyer's recommendations, because I don't feel they line up with what you appear to want:
Keep your BOD right where it is at 3 - 4 is not an optimal number at chargen, you're not saving Karma with it, you're not getting any Phys Soak Boxes, you're just spending BP on being able to wear a little bit more armor, where you probably don't need to at chargen.

Since you're using MoM, don't mince around that fact, and do drop that AGI to 1 and never raise it again. I also would second dropping your STR to 1 since your weapon Dam is not STR based and you need every BP you can get, I also agree you should probably drop your CHA by at least 1 point (and get rid of Negotiation too), you can't afford an excursion into social skills at chargen. This will allow you to help out your WIL (Drain stat gooooood) and REA which you should put both at 5 (passive dodge gooooood - no, greeeeat!).
Do not pick up the Increase CHA spell, your group's Face shouldn't need your buff and your BP are too precious at chargen - you need to focus right now if you want to be viable in your roles (infiltration and melee) out of the gate.
I think dropping Increase Gymnastics and Increase Exotic Melee Weap is a good idea right now, but instead use your Power Points for Increased Reflexes (and of course drop the spell) - you are going to use Reflexes every single battle, going through the drain and sustaining it is not worth it, use your spells instead to buff your skills, don't pick up Increase STR you're simply not a STR char.
If you can afford it, absolutely get a Weapon Focus 2 (since there's no way you'll be able to afford a 4) - don't waste your time/Y with a rank 1 weapon focus that you'll just replace soon after chargen.
Utility spells are nice if you can afford them, but pick up non-essential spells dead last in this process.
I agree with bumping your Pistols skill  if possible, as you need to have a viable long-range attack - you presently have absolutely nothing. Melee combat doesn't happen every combat - in fact it's kind of rare, unless you seek it out kamikaze style, which is not your gig.
Do not increase your EDG to 3, your BP are too precious.
Made Man is 10 BP and Sustenance is esseentially 2.5 BP, so you'd be spending 12.5 BP for a 12 BP contact ... that math doesn't add up, if you want an uber contact, just spend 12 BP on building one that you don't have to give your time to.

Let's see where you're at after this...

bdyer

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« Reply #5 on: <03-01-13/1315:11> »
The simple fact is the build you're going for (which appears to ultimately be an infiltration/melee character - i.e. a magical ninja - all spells and powers are geared around these two end roles) is a very (VERY) expensive one - any MystAd is expensive. To be very honest, I've never found what a Mystic Adept does, that either being just a Magician or just an Adept can't do better, but that's perhaps a matter for another thread. Let's try and get you the PC you want.

If you're trying to economize BP, you have a couple big inefficiencies in the burning of a lot of BP (15) hard-maxing your MAG, and as mentioned by others you def have way too many contacts for this build.

This will allow you to help out your WIL (Drain stat gooooood).

Do not pick up the Increase CHA spell, your group's Face shouldn't need your buff and your BP are too precious at chargen - you need to focus right now if you want to be viable in your roles (infiltration and melee) out of the gate.
I think dropping Increase Gymnastics and Increase Exotic Melee Weap is a good idea right now, but instead use your Power Points for Increased Reflexes (and of course drop the spell) - you are going to use Reflexes every single battle, going through the drain and sustaining it is not worth it, use your spells instead to buff your skills, don't pick up Increase STR you're simply not a STR char.

Utility spells are nice if you can afford them, but pick up non-essential spells dead last in this process.
I agree with bumping your Pistols skill  if possible, as you need to have a viable long-range attack - you presently have absolutely nothing. Melee combat doesn't happen every combat - in fact it's kind of rare, unless you seek it out kamikaze style, which is not your gig.
Do not increase your EDG to 3, your BP are too precious.
Made Man is 10 BP and Sustenance is esseentially 2.5 BP, so you'd be spending 12.5 BP for a 12 BP contact ... that math doesn't add up, if you want an uber contact, just spend 12 BP on building one that you don't have to give your time to.

Let's see where you're at after this...

Unlike a Magican a mystic adept needs all the magic he can split into the 2 different roles i support hard capping a magic attribute for a myst ad but not for a Magican

He's already going to have 15 dice to resist drain so I think he's good there

Being able to have some ability to either assist in social situations or to do anything social is worth 3bp to bump from 1 social dice to 5.

The one thing a mystic adept has over a mundane inflrator is utility.  Knocked out a guard? Alter memory to think he fell asleep.  Need an air borne entry? Levitate. Be invisible. Utility spells are where you need to be.  Load up your tool box

I added the increase str since he boosted his str

Edge is absolutely awesome when you need it.  It's saved my butt many times

Why would you ever use 2.5 power points to accomplish what a 3 bp spell and 8 more bp for a sustaining focus?  The spell is a better option

I'm bias with made man I like the fluff

Good choice with the whip it gives good dmg for minimal investment
« Last Edit: <03-01-13/1332:10> by bdyer »

emsquared

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« Reply #6 on: <03-01-13/1348:52> »
Just trying to arm him with more information bdyer, another perspective, nothing personal.
Unlike a Magican a mystic adept needs all the magic he can split into the 2 different roles i support hard capping a magic attribute for a myst ad but not for a Magican
That's no reason to waste 15 BP and 20 Karma. 5 more spells at chargen, for instance, would serve him way better than 1 more die in his casting pool.
He's already going to have 15 dice to resist drain so I think he's good there
Drain is the single limiting factor for spellcasting and summoning, when you consider over-casting, you can never have enough. Ever.
Being able to have some ability to either assist in social situations or to do anything social is worth 3bp to bump from 1 social dice to 5.
We can agree to disagree. He can make his choice.
The one thing a mystic adept has over a mundane inflrator is utility.  Knocked out a guard? Alter memory to think he fell asleep.  Need an air borne entry? Levitate. Be invisible. Utility spells are where you need to be.  Load up your tool box
Utility spells are great, but they come after necessity spells (and foci and armor and other essential gear). That was all I said, dude.
Edge is absolutely awesome when you need it.  It's saved my butt many times
Spending 20 Karma on 15 Karma worth of EDG is not awesome. Nor is spending 10 BP on something he may only be able to use every other session when he could buy something(s) he can use every session, multiple times a session.
Why would you ever use 2.5 power points to accomplish what a 3 bp spell and 8 more bp for a sustaining focus?  The spell is a better option
A Way and Geas can cut that back to 1.25 PP (12.5 BP), compared to your 11BP and having it at a moments notice PLUS freeing up that sustaining focus for every battle PLUS not worrying about drain, IMHO, worth the 1.5 BP difference. Again, simply giving him another approach.
« Last Edit: <03-01-13/1355:13> by emsquared »

RdMarquis

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« Reply #7 on: <03-01-13/1436:53> »
Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll see what I can do with it when I have access to a character builder.

By the way, two of those contacts are actually Enemies. But I'm not adverse to cutting points from them if needed.

Is it possible to do this build without Mind over Matter? Seems like it would cost even more that way.

I think you're on a reasonable track, at least. Some questions before I offer specific advice:

Are you familiar with Heightened Concentration? How does your GM (or you, if this is a thought experiment character) think it works?

How does your GM (or you) think maximum force of spells/spirits for Mystic Adepts works?

That is a lot of contacts and as you have noticed, Mystic Adepts are very tight on points. Are you willing to cut anything there?

Are you morally opposed to taking 'ware on this character?

Just going by the book, I'd say the maximum force for spells is based off the actual Magic attribute.

I've never read the rules for Heightened Concentration myself, so I can't say (probably should get Digital Grimoire at some point, anyway).

And I'd be okay with taking augmentations, if it makes things easier.

emsquared

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« Reply #8 on: <03-01-13/1440:54> »
Is it possible to do this build without Mind over Matter? Seems like it would cost even more that way.
You could probably do it as an Elf, with CHA as your drain stat. Don't know if it'd be any cheaper though.

Assuming BOD is 3 with either Metatype:
As a Human you need a decent INT, high REA, LOG (which is also AGI) and WIL.
As an Elf you would need a decent INT, high AGI, REA, CHA and WIL. So, you are picking up an additional emphasis stat (AGI), but you're also gaining some freedom with Powers, or requiring 25 less BP if you just drop the hard-max MAG with the MoM.

It'd be close, try it both ways and see how they play out.
« Last Edit: <03-01-13/1454:22> by emsquared »

bdyer

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« Reply #9 on: <03-01-13/1458:32> »
Is it possible to do this build without Mind over Matter? Seems like it would cost even more that way.
You could probably do it as an Elf, with CHA as your drain stat. Don't know if it'd be any cheaper though.

You would lose being able to default on hardware (since your logic isn't as hi). Both of those are needed for b&e.  but you could MoM just consolidates your combat skills, drain skill, and hardware attribute into 1
« Last Edit: <03-01-13/1503:46> by bdyer »

emsquared

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« Reply #10 on: <03-01-13/1506:14> »
You would lose being able to default on hardware and lock picking (since your logic isn't as hi). Both of those are needed for b&e
No one can default on Hardware, no matter how high their LOG is. Lockpicking is easily replaced by a cheap gizmo. Hardware is handy for B&E but that's not the same thing as infiltration - granted a B&E skillset is handy for infiltration, it is not necessary - especially if you have Spells and are stealthy enough. For instance since he would have a high CHA, he could just become a social infiltrator - which personally I've found to be more effective than Hardware anyway.
« Last Edit: <03-01-13/1510:16> by emsquared »

UmaroVI

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« Reply #11 on: <03-01-13/1549:07> »
I had some free time, so here is a simple variant of this character.

A few notes:

4 bp and 20,125 ny left over. I would probably buy Mana Static, as it's Manipulation (so it goes with Adversary) and very useful.

You have to be very, VERY bare-bones to pull of a mystic adept at chargen without shooting yourself in the foot very hard down the road, which is what this is.

One of the good versions of Heightened Concentration would make this build better.

If you would like to suck a bit more now in exchange for being better later:

Drop the Rating 2 cerebral boosters and buy Rating 3 when you save up.

Start with only one sustaining focus (for Increase Reflexes) and buy better ones ASAP for Increase Intuition and Reaction.

[The negative qualities are placeholders]

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 4
Lift/Carry: 4 (15 kg/10 kg)
Memory: 14
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 1
REA: 1
STR: 1
CHA: 1
INT: 3
LOG: 7 (9)
WIL: 5
EDG: 2
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.16
Initiative:                4
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         6
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         3
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Automatics                 : 1                      Pool: 10
Counterspelling            : 4                      Pool: 10
Exotic Melee Weapon        : 4 [Monofilament Whip] Pool: 13
Hardware                   : 4                      Pool: 13
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 14
Perception                 : 1                      Pool: 7
Spellcasting               : 6                      Pool: 12
Summoning                  : 1                      Pool: 7

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Allergy (Common, Mild)
Allergy (Common, Mild)
Allergy (Common, Mild)
Allergy (Uncommon, Mild)
Mentor Spirit (Adversary)
Mystic Adept
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
The Magician's Way

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Wuxing, Resist Drain with WIL + LOG (14))
Alter Memory               DV: (F÷2)+2
Increase [Attribute] (REA) DV: (F÷2)-2
Increase [Attribute] (INT) DV: (F÷2)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Static                DV: (F÷2)+4
Sterilize                  DV: (F÷2)+2
Stunbolt                   DV: (F÷2)-1

== Powers ==
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Infiltration) Rating: 1
Mind Over Matter (AGI)
Quick Draw
Sorcerous Parry Rating: 2

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Attention Coprocessor Rating 3
Cerebral Booster Rating 2
Fingertip Compartment
Genetic Optimization (LOG)

== Weapons ==
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 8   DV: 1S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Gear ==
Power Focus (Bonded Foci) Rating 4
Sustaining Focus (Health) (Bonded Foci) Rating 3 x2

emsquared

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« Reply #12 on: <03-01-13/1620:05> »
Pretty sexy PC, Umaro. Can't help but cringe at the starting attributes, but man, this character can skyrocket once the Karma starts flowing. Very cool.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #13 on: <03-01-13/1727:57> »
It's not quite as bad as it looks, since the Reaction can be enhanced to 4 through a focus and the Agility is getting replaced, but yeah, it's rough. I might consider Int 2 Reaction 2, since realistically neither of those are getting bought up.

Another fun down the road trick is Sound Aura.

RdMarquis

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« Reply #14 on: <03-02-13/1348:36> »
Woah. Yeah, color me impressed. I'll definitely save this build for later. Thanks. Also, I'll see if I can put together an unaugmented character based on the advice so far.