[Mirikon]

No, the pay should fit the risk and the job. And unless you're doing some of the crazy things Razhul mentioned, or globetrotting around the world, then most jobs aren't going to be like that. 10K, 1-3 times per month, is plenty for people to have a low-mid lifestyle (or more, if they choose to get a roommate) and still have plenty to save up for new shiny.

However, stealing cars is a perfectly acceptable 'side-line' for someone with the right skills.

[All4BigGuns]

The characters could be at Middle on lifestyle working legitimately and not "shooting people in the face for money". If they are barely making such a lifestyle or only have a little bit left over for advancement, then there is no reason for them to continue.

[Mirikon]

Yes, because most runners would make excellent wage-slaves. </sarcasm>

Seriously, though. Who goes into the shadows to make it rich? That may be a nice end goal, but unless you're a barrens rat with only a predator to your name, running isn't "big bucks". The people who are in the shadows are typically there because they were gangers or other criminals trying to step up, professionals who got kicked out of the sweet life for various reasons, second (or third) generation runners, or people who had their whole world turn upside down, and it dumped them straight into the shadows. For most people on the run, going back to their old life isn't much of an option, if it is an option at all.

[Angelone]

Runners are something special, the PCs even more so. The game revolves around them, who else is going to extract Dr. McGuffin from MCT and along the way stumble upon the technomancer experiments? The PCs or just some random group of NPCs? If it's the NPCs somethings up.
   
Mirikon, how much downtime do you have between runs? Do you have any as the characters lay low or are they always working? How many lifestyles or safehouses do they have? Those things are expensive and require money for upkeep. Adding sidejobs is nice but it should be for bonus money or toys not the main source of income for the runners, because once they start working at the mechanic shop or taco stand because it pays better than running they may as well be wage-slaves.

[Black]

Ok, so my game has been running now for two years, with a game every two weeks.  Runs have varied at lot, some making the team hundreds of thousands, some being more personal or cluster frags and actually coming out nil or negative.  In game time, the campaign has lasted six months and the runners have completed 12 jobs.  Most of them have 100,000 Nuyen sitting in there personal accounts.  Half also have close to hundred Kama unspent.

Occasional, like last night they may spend big to buy a new vehicle.  Not often though.

Lifestyles eat some Nuyen, but not much.  There hacker can forge workable new sins if required, they often boost cars for jobs, and they purchased so much ammo at character creation... Well, it will be awhile before they need new stuff.

But they still play, not because the characters need the Nuyen, not because they need the karma(ok, the magic users are big in karma, the street Sam has only ever boosted on skill group and that was that).

Because they are interested in there characters and where the story is heading for each of them.  Let's call it story progress.  It ain't Nuyen, it aint karma, but sometimes advancing your character isn't about new shinys or new powers, sometimes its about the character themselves.

[Angelone]

*slow clap*

[Mirikon]

Mirikon, how much downtime do you have between runs? Do you have any as the characters lay low or are they always working? How many lifestyles or safehouses do they have? Those things are expensive and require money for upkeep. Adding sidejobs is nice but it should be for bonus money or toys not the main source of income for the runners, because once they start working at the mechanic shop or taco stand because it pays better than running they may as well be wage-slaves.

Depends on the run, and how public things got. A quiet job, with no fatalities and/or minimal collateral damage? No reason to really lay low, in my opinion, especially if they took the time to cover their tracks as they went. Something that devolves into a royal clusterfrag, with running gunbattles on the evening news? Get out of town for a few weeks, and take some jobs in another sprawl until the heat dies down, and some other runner team screws up to take the attention off you.

That's part of the 'earning it' bit I was talking about. Pulling off an extraction or datasteal without leaving behind a trail of bodies means you not only can work more often, but you get better quality, and better paying, work. Why would a Johnson spend tens of thousands on a runner team that is going to screw up that badly, when you can go to the barrens and pay a local gang 100 nuyen and a case of beer each to do the same thing? If he did, my first thought is "suicide run". Professionals get to work more often, or get better quality work.

But honestly, lifestyles don't take up that much nuyen. Especially if you take the time to use the improved lifestyle system in Runner's Companion (and Safehouses). For instance, if you take a few negative qualities on the lifestyle, you can have a pad where the individual sections are all Luxury or High, and still come in at 10K a month (5500/month if you have a roommate). Even better? Putting in that extra work not only helps establish the character in your head, but it gives the DM extra things to work from. I've had characters that had four separate lifestyles ranging from 20 to 0 LP, and the whole thing came out to just about what he'd get if he did one Mission a month. Everything beyond that was pure profit. But that character was also a mage, so I didn't have to worry about any other nuyen expenditures unless I needed medical attention.

On the other hand, I had one character who lived the high life for sure, but because they were an Alias TM, they spent a bunch of time spoofing their lifestyle. I've had other characters that were living in what was essentially Middle-to-High across the board, and the lifestyle came out to 7 LP, and the lifestyle was paid off (and then some) with her Day Job, which meant runs were pure profit (well, what didn't go to paying off her loans).

So I'll repeat myself: Live within your means, or find ways to stretch your means.

[GiraffeShaman]

There is an upper limit which applies to most groups, but there is also a huge middle ground between monty haul and scraping by. A friend of mine  tried Gming us a couple times and allowed us to capture a military helicopter and later sell it for half price. (Modified to add, on the first shadowrun!)  I didn't say anything at the table in order not to be a backseat GM, but it was a huge goof, not just in the mechanics of letting us sell the damn thing, but in creating such a huge cash infusion to newbie runners. It feels great for the players at first, but quickly gets stupid if it continues.

No one here is saying having a great storyline isn't top priority, at least as far as I've read so far. However, you can have that, and in addition higher payouts can create their own excitement, and that excitement can continue if you don't go full Monty Haul. I like a good blend of high payouts and high risk. My players don't enjoy high risk games as much as I do, but are more likely to put up with it with high payouts.

The higher paying corporate jobs can just dry up if the party act like morons. The corps need the runners, assuming they haven't proven themselves to be fools. And the runners need the corps, if the corps pay enough.

[All4BigGuns]

Yeah, selling the modified military helicopter for half price could be considered "Monty Haul".

Paying 20k to 25k per runner per run is not at that level.

[firebug]

How come nobody mentions what Emsquared always posits in these sort of situations?  Your characters, as main characters, have skills.  Why the hell would a hacker do runs if they could easily get a job making way, way more by getting a job in a corp.  Or just working on their own doing entirely matrix-based crime that never would require them to lift a gun.  Maybe you'll argue "They'd need a legit SIN to get such a job".  Well, first off, that's entirely possible.  Second, let's discuss a Face.  You're telling me someone with 20 dice in every social skill would choose to work for chump change, living in a rundown apartment and fighting for their life when they could more easily get a high-paying job in a corporation by just talking their way up the ranks?  Maybe they don't want to work.  That's fine; they seduce some well-off suit and bam.

Your characters aren't doing manual labor for minimum wage.  They are doing dangerous, life-threatening jobs that require teamwork, skill, bravery, and secrecy.  They often work for people who have lots of money, as well, enough to consider paying strangers to do important jobs for them.  I don't expect characters to start off getting such important jobs (everyone starts small).  But it shouldn't take long.  Once your characters have proven to be above your average ganger, their jobs should become better, both because players shouldn't be stuck feeling like their character's skills are being wasted, and because I honestly believe that's how shadowrunners are. 

[Reaver]

How come nobody mentions what Emsquared always posits in these sort of situations?  Your characters, as main characters, have skills.  Why the hell would a hacker do runs if they could easily get a job making way, way more by getting a job in a corp.  Or just working on their own doing entirely matrix-based crime that never would require them to lift a gun.  Maybe you'll argue "They'd need a legit SIN to get such a job".  Well, first off, that's entirely possible.  Second, let's discuss a Face.  You're telling me someone with 20 dice in every social skill would choose to work for chump change, living in a rundown apartment and fighting for their life when they could more easily get a high-paying job in a corporation by just talking their way up the ranks?  Maybe they don't want to work.  That's fine; they seduce some well-off suit and bam.

They are wanted for murder?
They banged the CEO's teenaged son/daughter and he wants them dead?
They are anti-social psychopaths?
They got tired of working 18hrs a day for someone else to get rich off their great ideas/work
They are Barrens scum, no matter how much soap they use?
They aren't willing to tow the company line, or follow company protocols?
They would rather shoot people in the face for money then smile and say "please don't touch the display"??

Your characters aren't doing manual labor for minimum wage.  They are doing dangerous, life-threatening jobs that require teamwork, skill, bravery, and secrecy.  They often work for people who have lots of money, as well, enough to consider paying strangers to do important jobs for them.  I don't expect characters to start off getting such important jobs (everyone starts small).  But it shouldn't take long.  Once your characters have proven to be above your average ganger, their jobs should become better, both because players shouldn't be stuck feeling like their character's skills are being wasted, and because I honestly believe that's how shadowrunners are.

People to have lots of money are not in the habit of giving it away. They are usually the stingiest bastards you could ever meet! That's how they got their money after all... by screwing over everything and everyone for every dime they have.

Corporations are the same way. Except that they have "cost/profit projections" and "Analysis reports on projected earnings" and all that other crap that boils down to "the less you spend, the better you look to the 'man' above you".

Look at it this way; Ares gets wind of a new drone that Renraku is trying to develop that would put it in direct competition with their Steel Lynx drone. Ares crunches some numbers, and figures that if the drone is even only a modest success they stand to lose 5% of their sales. After Ares crunches the numbers, that 5% loss in sales means that they are going to lose $79,590 in profits (they save some due to less manufacturing, shipping, labour, etc). So they have several options. The First option is to decrease the costs of the Steel Lynx to below the projected MSRP of the new Renraku drone. This would result in a loss of only $32,845 IF their sales don't slip, and after several quarters, Renraku might be forced to shelf the drone as "non marketable".

Or, they could use their internal Hackers to hack into the Renraku design facility and sabotage the drone specs to drive up Renraku's costs, hoping to get them to abandon the drone as the costs for designing it mount. But if their hackers are discovered, they could be sued in the Corporate court for the additional costs incurred by Renraku.

Or, they could hire a team of shadowrunners to sabotage the drone specs and destroy any prototypes currently made. Of course, this option has some risks as well, as the Runners could download a copy of the specs for their own use before they sabotage the specs (thus leaving an option that Renraku could re-aquire the specs again). Or the shadowrunners could fail in their job and point the finger back to Ares. Or a host of other potential  problems.

Now, they are only going to hire the runners if they can get a team that will do the job for $79,590 or LESS. If they paid more then that, then Ares was better off not doing anything as it would cost them less to just do nothing.


Not every run that Shadowrunners are involved in is a multi-million dollar run. Some of them can be quite small for returns (as the one I just posted above) to the sponsoring entity or group. Some have no monetary value and are simply done to deny or delay an other entity some perceived advantage.

And then there is the simple fact that this team of runners is not the only game in town. There are dozens of teams in every major city out there, and if the "going rate" is $7,000 a head, then demanding $20,000 a head just gets the team a reputation as being hard to deal with and more jobs dry up. (thus they make even LESS money!)

[Reaver]

A lot has been said about lifestyles here: so lets actually look at what the SR4a has to say about lifestyles:

[SR4A pgs 270-271 (underlining and Bolding by me, edited in parts)]
Even though it may sometimes seem that many Shadowrun characters live in a bar or a rundown squat, each character actually has a unique lifestyle. Lifestyle measures the quality of a character’s daily life and her living expenses, including shelter, food, entertainment, clothing and so on. It does not cover technical resources, weapons, magical equipment, professional hirelings, or other major but not personal items. The player and the gamemaster can also decide on other interesting details of the character’s lifestyle, with almost infinite variations..... <stuff>[/b....] A character living a Middle or higher lifestyle can support guests at a rate of 10 percent above her own cost of living per guest. A host can also keep a guest at a lower lifestyle than her own by paying 10 percent of the cost of the guest’s lifestyle. Characters may only buy one lifestyle. This lifestyle truly reflects the runner’s standard living circumstances. Additional living amenities such as hotel stays, workshops, safehouses, and so on are handled as separate costs. Likewise, while lifestyle accounts for the costs of maintaining a vehicle (or paying for other methods of transportation), it does not account for the cost of a vehicle itself—that must be purchased separately.

Note that last sentence, for some of these lifestyles that just doesn't seem to make sense, and I personally usually allow for a free car (and usually not the car that the player's want!) with some lifestyles. It should be noted however that this "free" car is NOT one that a rigger can trick out... this is a simple "daily life" vehicle and that is all (so a Rigger still has to by a car that he wants to include sensors, and armor and drone racks in)

[SR4A pgs 270-271 (underlining and Bolding by me, edited in parts)]
LUXURY
This lifestyle offers the best of everything: ritzy digs, lots of high-tech toys, the best food and drink, you name it. The character has a house- hold staff , maid service, or sophisticated drones to do the chores. She gets by in her massive mansion, snazzy condo, or the penthouse suite in a top hotel. Home security is top-of-the-line, with well-trained guards, astral security, and quick response times. Her home entertainment system is better than that in public theaters and accessible from anywhere in the home. She’s on the VIP list at several exclusive restaurants and clubs, both real and virtual. This is the life for the high-stakes winners in the world of Shadowrun: high-level executives, government big shots, Yakuza bigwigs, and the few shadowrunners who pull off  the big scores (and live to spend their pay). Cost: 100,000¥ a month and up!

HIGH
A High lifestyle offers a roomy house or condo, good food, and the technology that makes life easy. The character may not have the same perks as the really big boys, but neither does she have as many people gunning for her. Her home is in a secure zone or protected by good, solid bribes to the local police contractor and gang boss. She has a housekeeping service or enough tech to take care of most chores. This is the life for the well-to-do on either side of the law: mid-level managers, senior Mob bosses, and the like. Cost: 10,000¥ a month

 MIDDLE
The Middle lifestyle offers a nice house or condo with lots of comforts. Characters with this lifestyle sometimes eat nutrisoy as well as higher priced natural food, but at least the autocook has a full suite of flavor faucets. This is the lifestyle of ordinary successful wage-earners or criminals. Cost: 5,000¥ a month

LOW
 With this lifestyle, the character has an apartment, and nobody is likely to bother her much if she keeps the door bolted. She can count on regular meals; the nutrisoy may not taste great, but at least it’s hot. Power and water are available during assigned rationing periods. Security depends on how regular the payments to the local street gang are. Factory workers, petty crooks, and other folks stuck in a rut, just starting out, or down on their luck tend to have Low lifestyles. Cost: 2,000¥ a month

SQUATTER
Life stinks for the squatter, and most of the time so does the character. She eats low-grade nutrisoy and yeast, adding flavors with an eyedropper. Her home is a squatted building, perhaps fixed up a bit, possibly even converted into barracks or divided into closet-sized rooms and shared with other squatters. Or maybe she just rents a coffin-sized sleep tank by the night. The only thing worse than the Squatter lifestyle is living on the streets. Cost: 500¥ a month

STREETS
 The character lives on the streets—or in the sewers, steam tunnels, condemned buildings, or whatever temporary flop she can get. Food is wherever the character finds it, bathing is a thing of the past, and the character’s only security is what she creates for herself. This lifestyle is the bottom of the ladder, inhabited by down-and-outers of all stripes. Cost: Hey pal, life ain’t all bad. It’s free

So the OPs characters are earning enough to have a middle lifestyle and squirrel away an extra $2000-$2500 every run (or pay for ammo, and other expenditures) which is just right for a successful criminal (which the players are.. right???) that's not to bad considering that the idea is that all those other people out there (the NPCs) work just to maintain this lifestyle and maybe squirrel away an extra couple hundred a month for that vacation, or a new car every couple of years. This is by no way a bad place for even seasoned runners to be, and is probably MUCH better then most Barrens brats could ever dream of having!

At "High" Lifestyles, the players are on the same footing as the 'movers and shakers' of the criminal underworld... meaning, the very people who are providing the runners with jobs! If you are living a better lifestyle as the Senor Mob Boss trying to hire you to shake up some bozos.... why aren't YOU playing the part of the Fixer? I mean really, this is where all Runners would LOVE to be, (and maybe they make it there for a short time) but the question remains that if you are living a High Lifestyle (Especially if you OWN one) why are you still in the game?? some other factor must be motivating you other then money,,, which renders the question of how high or low the pay is kind of moot doesn't it?

At a Luxury lifestyle.... yea, not going there, if your Runner is making regular payments on this lifestyle or expects to make regular payments, you are either looking for (or playing) a "monty-hall" campaign, are delusional, or very, Very, VERY seasoned (like in the 500 to 2000 karma range)

[firebug]

They are wanted for murder?
They banged the CEO's teenaged son/daughter and he wants them dead?
They are anti-social psychopaths?
They got tired of working 18hrs a day for someone else to get rich off their great ideas/work
They are Barrens scum, no matter how much soap they use?
They aren't willing to tow the company line, or follow company protocols?
They would rather shoot people in the face for money then smile and say "please don't touch the display"??

That is most certainly not automatically true for every shadowrunner; and is in fact assumed to not be true for most.  Your third point in particular makes no sense; you're saying they would prefer to work for even less money and do nothing with those "great ideas/work" while risking their life?  Or are you saying they could use those while running...  Thus making more money because of their exceptional ability (which was my point).

Not every run that Shadowrunners are involved in is a multi-million dollar run. Some of them can be quite small for returns (as the one I just posted above) to the sponsoring entity or group. Some have no monetary value and are simply done to deny or delay an other entity some perceived advantage.

And then there is the simple fact that this team of runners is not the only game in town. There are dozens of teams in every major city out there, and if the "going rate" is $7,000 a head, then demanding $20,000 a head just gets the team a reputation as being hard to deal with and more jobs dry up. (thus they make even LESS money!)

Things done to deny or delay another entity most definitely have a monetary value; coming from someone who just wrote about how it's all about profit, you should understand that the corp will think about how much money they could make by delaying another group and that will factor in to how much they will pay for it.  I counter your arguement about your team not being the only game in town with the fact that again, the PCs are supposed to be special.  I don't think they should start above everyone else, but they are supposed to rise above.  The impression I get, though, is that everyone seems to feel that they are stuck working for peanuts forever!

Explain to me why the game is full of such expensive things like any Deltaware implants, high-end combat drones?  Sure, NPCs can use them, but what about High and Luxury Lifestyles?  Those are only for player characters (by which I mean, you will never need to use Lifestyle stats for an NPC, you don't need to charge them per month or determine their lifestyle benefits as you do for PCs; just be logical about what they have) and I haven't seen anyone even consider them to be ever possible to achieve.  Paying for a High Lifestyle is 10,000¥ a month.  I absolutely doubt it was written with the idea in mind that a character who had this would give up being able to purchase anything else.  Luxury could have had its own section about being beyond stats for how impossible to reach it apparently is.

The list you quoted implies that runner should be able to reach those levels, though.

Also, 2500¥ a run is only enough for Middle if you're doing 3 runs a month, which is nuts.  It also only leaves you with about 2000¥ each month after other expenses.  That's a run every 10 days; how do you expect to get any downtime training done?  Buying a Fake SIN at rating 4 is 4000¥ and is a 12 Threshold test with an interval of 2 days.  Unless you're making the Face buy one for you, you may honestly fail to buy it in time.  Even if you do, the Face won't have time to buy everything for everyone.  And this is something you would begin play with; forget about trying to buy rarer things that you would actually want to save up for.  How about this?

To learn or improve a skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an Extended Intuition + skill Test, with a threshold equal to the new skill rating x 2 and an interval of 1 week (1 month for skill groups). A teacher can add bonus dice to this test (see Using Instruction, p. 134).

Assuming you have 5 Intuition and 3 skill, that's trying to get 6 hits with an 8 dice pool and an interval of 1 week.  Heaven forbid your character tries to spend Karma, you'll starve and go homeless trying to become better at your job!

I'm sorry for sounding rude; I'm very irritated by this.  You can start out on the bottom, but your characters shouldn't spend the majority of their careers next to penniless.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Don't apologize, you didn't sound rude at all.  You stated in a clear way why you see it the way you do. I agree with your view, too.

In my current group, we've earned MUCH more than the pocket change you guys have been discussing.  In one run, we had to steal a load of a chemical lubricant.  We not only stole it, we stole 2 loads of it... along with 2 tanker trucks.  The total from the run and sell of 2 trucks was a bit under 50k.  Did we say "Oh shit, now I can finally afford that piece of gear I wanted.  The game is so boring now."  Hell, I quickly spent it... and I'm the mage.  The guy that needs less nuyen than the more implant-oriented characters.  Seriously, if you gave me 5 million nuyen, I'd probably have it spent by the next session, assuming I made some amazing availability rolls... and then I'd have to wait for karma to catch up so I could bind some of those new foci.  You would have to throw billions of Nuyen and Karma at a player for the game to get to the point where you're basically playing Oblivion in Godmode, i.e. pointless to keep playing.

[Reaver]

RE: Firebug (sorry, done enough quoting for today )

First, the OP said that his players got $7500 each for a single run. So in a single Run, they paid for their lifestyle AND banked $2500. If they do 2 runs a month that's actually $10,000 banked after paying for their middle class lifestyle. Not a bad pull in for runners just starting out.

I am not suggesting that the runners earn peanuts forever (in fact in an earlier post I tell you how much *I* start paying my players, and give you an idea on how it progresses), but there is a huge difference in what a crew with a Street rep of 3 can expect to earn, and what a crew with a street rep of 0 can expect to earn. As their reputations are earned, their pay goes up. But it doesn't go from peanuts to diamonds in 2 or 3 game sessions.

To give you an idea my players started off doing runs for around $5000 each. Yes these were small time runs for the mob, or private citizens, and the like. As they made a name for themselves, both the pay and the risk increased. By the end of campaign they had amassed about 750 Karma and the average pay was in the $65,000 range PER RUNNER. with 'high reward' jobs capping out at around $150,000 each. But by this time, they could handle some serious threats with just a little crying and pillow biting. They EARNED there way to those paydays, and got the satisfaction of watching their characters go from hiding from the landlord to owning multiple lifestyles in multiple cities. (and by owning, I mean paid out in full... the X100 way)

Next:

The Point I was trying to make is that there are hundreds of reasons why people run the shadows and wasn't trying to pigeon hole a FEW. there are some legit reasons why people can not conform to the wageslave role to society that has nothing to do with money. For them, running the shadows is the difference between life and death. And Corp life isn't available to everyone, no matter how good you walk, talk, shoot, sling, or hack. Heck even today, how many 'wasted' lives do you see everyday? how many homeless people do you pass by on your way to work? How many prostitutes do you see risking their lives to sell their bodies for less then what a minimum wage job could pay them? How many incredibly bright inner city kids are working low paying jobs when they have the potential to do and be more? Not all Homeless have mental disorders. Not all prostitutes are junkies. Not all inner city kids are gang bangers. Sometimes in life, people are dealt really shitty cards and have to make do with what they were dealt. It's sad, but also very true. when you boil your character down to just a bunch of random numbers and say "Hey, this guy could be a CEO of Ares! he should get paid that amount or just go work for them!!" you are doing yourself a disservice. It's YOUR character, why IS he running the shadows making less then what could in an office?? that's your job to tell me, not my job to tell you

Everything in the Corp world has a price tag to it, but the point I was trying to make is that Corporations will do Shadowruns for a variety of reasons, and not all of those reasons will net them millions of dollars. When they deny an other corporation something (lets say land), there is also no guarantee that they themselves will turn a bigger profit, they are simply denying the other Corp the opportunity to expand. (and MAYBE, preventing a hit to their bottom line down the road.... ) Shadowruns are not just the preview of Corporations. Anyone and everyone from Big-wig executives to housing communes could have the need for deniable assets. And not all can offer to pay six figure salaries. Heck, the runners to be offered a job by some middling level manager at a sewage plant to tail his boss for 3 weeks and find out any "bad habits" he's got so the middling manager guy can use it to get a promotion! Now, if that promotion is going to net him a $10k payraise, can he REALLY afford to pay out $250000 for the runners??? Does he even have $250k? Has he even SEEN 250k??? Just cause you are working for a Corp player, doesn't mean there is unlimited funds available.... Some things are only owrth paying out so much for....

And there is the other side of the argument. When the Runners get a call to a job, it's usually from a fixer.. that Fixer has run through his list of people that he knows and tried to match up the crew he thinks has the right skills for what the Johnson is looking for. If the Runners continually turn down the offers he lines up for them, why would he continue to risk his own rep for them??


******

At the very heart of the matter is, PLAYERS want more for their characters based on a set numbers that they see. The GM has a value for pay VS risk that he is following based off the STORYLINE he has created. Since neither are seeing the same value, most arguments about "what the approperate" pay is for X runner is totally mute. In the end, the players have a choice, accept the baseline pay that the GM is offering, and trust in his story, or not play. The GM has a choice as well, he can alter his story to pay the runners more, or he can choose not to tell a story. Neither side wins unless they can come to some understanding in the middle....