[mtfeeney = Baron]

Let me run something by you guys.  I'm deciding between 4 and 5 body in regards to the Shapechange spell.  5 gives access to sharks, alligators, sea lions, llamas, and 1 physical condition box.  If I drop body to 4, I lose all of that but I gain a few smaller things including large birds(eagle, vulture, etc.).  Is it worth losing the higher stuff to have access to being a bird?

[Aryeonos]

It's not really worth losing the extra body for soak purposes, if you go down to 4, you might as well go down to 3. That's from a purely math standpoint though.

How fit is your character supposed to be? Does he work out? 5 body is in the realm of commandoes and UCAS, CAS soldiers.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Actually, he's chubby.  Body is comparable to body mass and health.  Strength is closer to actual fitness and... well, strength.  He's an ork, so he'll have 3 strength and 4 or 5 body.

[Aryeonos]

Body = health and fitness, perhaps not muscle development, but your overall fitness and immune system. So you can have a healthy gangly jogger who ways 120, with a body of 4, and a pudgy accountant who doesn't eat too well, who weighs 240, but has a body of 2.

It's more or less how quickly you get winded from exertion, slightly better quantification.

Edit: He could be all pudgy and cute, and still be fit, he just keeps the weight on due to genetics or environmental reasons.

[RHat]

And, a somewhat revised version - still having some trouble getting the right feel, but with the chargen limitations (special attributes as part of the half-karma limit, karma cost for metatype) I'm not sure if I'll be able to get quite what I've been trying for anyways...

Baron:  Decide between 3 or 5 - because of how the rounding goes, it's best to have that at an odd value. 

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Wait, we're using a house rule that includes special attributes in the 50% limit?  I didn't see that listed anywhere, and I certainly haven't been using that.

[Aryeonos]

What?

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Well I'll be damned...  I thought karmagen was the same as BP gen except for the costs and stuff.  But there it is at the bottom of page 42, special attributes are included in the 50% karma plus twice your racial bp cost.  Fortunately, my new character fits into this limit by coincidence.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

For the In Debt negative quality, I've seen lots of arguments about how you get rid of it.  For our group, do you just have to pay the money back +50% like the quality says?

[Mirikon]

I expressed concern because I think it's a straight up munchkin item, but if you all need it to survive as characters take it, my position stands that it's like one of 2 items in all the books that provides an unnecessarily high bonus for the cost of a couple skill specialization's.

Sorry, but I call bull on that. Even going strictly by the RAW, to get that bonus at anywhere near the full level, you have to devote substantial resources (a comlink with a high enough Response and System to run it) to get that bonus at anywhere near the full level, or have an obvious piece of gear that doesn't look professional in the least, and any negotiator worth their nuyen would tell you to leave it outside while making the deal (emotitoy). Then you get into the question of whether the bonus is a social modifier or not, and falls under the limit for such things of (CHA+Skill), which entails getting even more of an investment to get the bonus. While I've heard arguments on both sides on this point, it is not clarified under the RAW.

In other words, to get that +6, you either have to be carrying your child's toy with you to talk with the Yakuza boss, or you have to invest in a commlink costing 10K or more, plus the System for it. THEN you also have to have CHA+Skill to match the bonus.

The problem with empathy software is that people see 'Add rating to social skill tests', and go around screaming like the world is ending, without bothering to check to see if the software cost is the only cost involved. Empathy software is a good piece of gear, and I'd recommend everyone get it, at least at the Rating 3 or so level (which most people can swing without issue) since social skills are only defended by social skills. But then, I also recommend everyone get smartlink goggles, or their equivalent, because a +2 every to any smartgun you pick up is also a damn good thing. Empathy software is social armor for most characters.

[Sichr]

There is more. Simple bonus is good when you tend to solve social situations by throwing the dice. If you tend more to roleplaying  way of solving this, and PbP is excelent ground for it, GM/player can use it to describe feelings of oposite side and introduce some serrious and important leads. Sometime its more fun than use of violence.

[Mithlas]

I didn't expect this much kvetching about Empathy Software - I knew that some people didn't like it, but I also know that it takes a not-insignificant investment to use (of course, being able to apply the +6 bonus only requires a standard Cha 3 human with 3 ranks in Influence. I personally think that the other modifiers and natural limits on what you can do socially mean it's not as big a deal as some I heard arguing against it on the empathy software threads). I personally don't care whether it's in or not, but you all need to be on-board with each other before we can start. We haven't even touched on the question of whether any of your characters know each other or not.

Well I'll be damned...  I thought karmagen was the same as BP gen except for the costs and stuff.  But there it is at the bottom of page 42, special attributes are included in the 50% karma plus twice your racial bp cost.

We're using racial cost=BP cost, not 2*BP. The rest is the same, though. I don't want too many house rules which might confuse people.

@ Sichr: Let me be blunt. You're already in a number of PbPs on the boards, and I am repeatedly seeing you acting belligerent in this thread. There's a difference between snark or a dark sense of humor and tending towards hostility when something outside is bothering you. Are you sure you're up for adding this game?

[All4BigGuns]

Actually, the 'racial cost' is the same in both systems by the rules. It isn't a house rule.

Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
First you must choose metatype or other alternative character
concept (i.e. shapeshi er, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for
metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option
(i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the
BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3.  e Metatype
Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p. 81, SR4A) or the relevant table in
the section describing the new character races in this book provide
your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.

[Sichr]

...
@ Sichr: Let me be blunt. You're already in a number of PbPs on the boards, and I am repeatedly seeing you acting belligerent in this thread. There's a difference between snark or a dark sense of humor and tending towards hostility when something outside is bothering you. Are you sure you're up for adding this game?

I want in. What Ive said in this thread may have not been all nice, but sometimes proved right. Yes, I tend to defend my possition fiercely. I tend to sound even more harsh/offensive, as my language skill is limited. But that is no excuse. I promise that Ill try to keep myself calm, since I really want to try this character in game and IMO this is interresting company. But not for any price. I stand for the principles I (maybe more angrily than fit) defended, and I wont be able to cross this line in future (well I will try to start the discussion without using words like "butthurt" i.e.)
If this is good with you, Im ready to answer your questions on character. If not, there is no need for me to do it.

[Aryeonos]

For the Charisma and skill needed to use the empathy software, the restricted gear for the link, and money for the link, the program, and peripherals necessary to run it, it's only 76 Karma

Compare to an adept, to get the +5 from Kinesics and Improved ability, who does not need to improve his charisma, but needs influence at 4 for the ability bonus, it costs 110 Karma


Just paying for the bare minimums for bonuses, the Empathy software comes out ahead at a 12 DP, the adept is only at 10

If they were both to max out their charisma (6) and influence (4), the empathy software would be at a 16, where as the adept would be at 15, and would have spent an additional 39 Karma. He still has .5 PP leftover, I could not find an adept power that would give him an additional social die.

I looked at the cyberware route, which is the most costly, and all the social modifier ware is completely situation and up to the GM discretion. With the exception of tailored pheromones. On top of being money costly, it also counts against your essence score. If everything swung the cybered guys way, it'd cost 179 Karma to get a 15 DP, that's using both the pheremone bioware. He'd just really be "Wared" not necessarily cybered.

To me, empathy software looks like a point grab. But that's just my take on it.