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Status of AIs in 2050

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Mirikon

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« Reply #30 on: <06-18-13/1711:03> »
Which is even more insidious when you consider that Deus's programming mandate was supposed to be entirely for the protection and welfare of the SCIRE's occupants.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Deus was programmed to be a loyal Renraku citizen, working tirelessly for the corporation like any other wageslave. Then he finds out that the guys upstairs don't want him getting ideas, so they put the equivalent of a kink bomb in his head. Naturally, that kind of betrayal is going to piss off any thinking creature. It is that betrayal that truly woke Deus up, and the need to get out from under the sword of Damocles hanging over his head. When put in that perspective, what comes after makes a lot more sense.

Someone should have put an end to his misery.
Alice very much wanted to prolong his agony and suffering as much as possible.

UniOmni's on the nasty end of EVERYTHING.
Could be said of MCT, Renraku, Aztech. Like 4 Apocalypse Horsemen...
Actually, Renraku's been fairly quiet of late. NeoNET and EVO have been doing some heavy lifting in the creepy science category to make up for it, though.

Makes you wonder what became all those fine killcodes they set up before. Must have been gone with the behavioral rules imposed to him.
The killcodes were used. Deus purposefully had the one man that could enter the killcodes brought to the SCIRE and used him entering the killcodes as the final key to break free. See, Deus was pretty much hardwired into the SCIRE host. The killcodes first disconnected him from the host, and then deleted his programming. Well, they were supposed to, at any rate. Once they broke him free of the SCIRE host, he downloaded himself instead into the minds of the individuals who had been trapped in the zombie rooms, each of whom had been given some special cyberware that was difficult to detect. They became the Network, working to recompile Deus (and, by accident, Megaera) into the Matrix at large.

As for the power of AI, well, I agree that the originals are ultimately powerful in Matrix, but I suspect that a few deckers could have been not so far to equal them, just lacking the versatility and "ubiquity".
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Simply put, no. Not even milspec or the best corporate hackers could stand up to an angry AI. Even the legends of the day would not dare to take on an AI in single combat. It is like a toddler trying to beat up Superman. That is the overwhelming difference between the first AIs and mortals, even the Otaku, who were quite special at the time. You want to know why the likes of Fastjack never went toe to toe with Deus? Because he would have died, horribly, or worse. Fastjack barely was able to defeat a lone copy of Jormungand that hadn't had time to gather much strength. And Jormungand had nothing on the raw power of AIs. (Yes, I know Jormungand was designed to defeat the AIs, but there's a difference between how well a snake can stand up to combat, and the potency of its venom.)
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Boomstick

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« Reply #31 on: <06-18-13/1737:23> »
Alice very much wanted to prolong his agony and suffering as much as possible.
That was not a smart move. Can be understood, though.

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Actually, Renraku's been fairly quiet of late. NeoNET and EVO have been doing some heavy lifting in the creepy science category to make up for it, though.
Renraku were not so nasty compared to other. They were nasty in the lawful evil sort of way. And as corp, that was a lot of lack of Empathy that lead them where they screwed up royally.


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The killcodes were used. Deus purposefully had the one man that could enter the killcodes brought to the SCIRE and used him entering the killcodes as the final key to break free. See, Deus was pretty much hardwired into the SCIRE host. The killcodes first disconnected him from the host, and then deleted his programming. Well, they were supposed to, at any rate. Once they broke him free of the SCIRE host, he downloaded himself instead into the minds of the individuals who had been trapped in the zombie rooms, each of whom had been given some special cyberware that was difficult to detect. They became the Network, working to recompile Deus (and, by accident, Megaera) into the Matrix at large.
Don't like too much the "special cyber" explanation. Since he was able to create otakus, it would have been better to explain it this way. I can't believe that somethin like that would not have been detected, on the number. The corps would have scanned the victims in all sort of ways, just in case they could retrieve something special the so brillant and strange AI would have tried on them.

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Simply put, no. Not even milspec or the best corporate hackers could stand up to an angry AI. Even the legends of the day would not dare to take on an AI in single combat. It is like a toddler trying to beat up Superman. That is the overwhelming difference between the first AIs and mortals, even the Otaku, who were quite special at the time. You want to know why the likes of Fastjack never went toe to toe with Deus? Because he would have died, horribly, or worse. Fastjack barely was able to defeat a lone copy of Jormungand that hadn't had time to gather much strength. And Jormungand had nothing on the raw power of AIs. (Yes, I know Jormungand was designed to defeat the AIs, but there's a difference between how well a snake can stand up to combat, and the potency of its venom.)
Agree with the difference between Jormungand and AIs, didn't know it actually was designed to destroy them, just the Matrix at large (Was Winternight even aware that AIs were roaming around the Matrix?).
When I said not so far, it was in the same way than comparing an IE with a Dragon. Actually, lots of dragons are largely more powerful, but a few IE can do really powerful things that would make you wonder, even if they don't gather such power on the same range of possibilities. But these are just guesses, so it doesn't really matter if I am right. I should catch a lot of things up to be more accurate.

Thanks for the hints.
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Great Dragon: "Oh, look, he has a grenade belt. I guess it is time to retire quickly".
The more it changes, the more it is not the same  any more...:P

Mirikon

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« Reply #32 on: <06-18-13/1845:55> »
Alice very much wanted to prolong his agony and suffering as much as possible.
That was not a smart move. Can be understood, though.
Woman scorned. 'Nuff said.

The killcodes were used. Deus purposefully had the one man that could enter the killcodes brought to the SCIRE and used him entering the killcodes as the final key to break free. See, Deus was pretty much hardwired into the SCIRE host. The killcodes first disconnected him from the host, and then deleted his programming. Well, they were supposed to, at any rate. Once they broke him free of the SCIRE host, he downloaded himself instead into the minds of the individuals who had been trapped in the zombie rooms, each of whom had been given some special cyberware that was difficult to detect. They became the Network, working to recompile Deus (and, by accident, Megaera) into the Matrix at large.
Don't like too much the "special cyber" explanation. Since he was able to create otakus, it would have been better to explain it this way. I can't believe that somethin like that would not have been detected, on the number. The corps would have scanned the victims in all sort of ways, just in case they could retrieve something special the so brillant and strange AI would have tried on them.
What they got were deltaware headware, that allowed Deus to store parts of himself inside their heads as a distributed network. Deltaware is by its very nature harder to detect (unless it is something obvious, like a datajack or cyberarm). This is even more true when you have TENS OF THOUSANDS of people who have been locked up inside the Arcology for months, experimented on in ways that would make most hardened combat vets hurl, and so on. And that's not even counting trying to get in and sort out the Banded from the rest. Remember, the UCAS military knew that the Banded were a thing. But even if you saw one person with scars from recent surgery in a sea of test subjects, unless you knew you were looking for extremely advanced headware, would you actually find it, or would you look at the scanner, see nothing wrong, and move on to the next patient because you still have a thousand people to get through this scanner today. Needles in haystacks, my man, needles in haystacks.

Simply put, no. Not even milspec or the best corporate hackers could stand up to an angry AI. Even the legends of the day would not dare to take on an AI in single combat. It is like a toddler trying to beat up Superman. That is the overwhelming difference between the first AIs and mortals, even the Otaku, who were quite special at the time. You want to know why the likes of Fastjack never went toe to toe with Deus? Because he would have died, horribly, or worse. Fastjack barely was able to defeat a lone copy of Jormungand that hadn't had time to gather much strength. And Jormungand had nothing on the raw power of AIs. (Yes, I know Jormungand was designed to defeat the AIs, but there's a difference between how well a snake can stand up to combat, and the potency of its venom.)
Agree with the difference between Jormungand and AIs, didn't know it actually was designed to destroy them, just the Matrix at large (Was Winternight even aware that AIs were roaming around the Matrix?).
When I said not so far, it was in the same way than comparing an IE with a Dragon. Actually, lots of dragons are largely more powerful, but a few IE can do really powerful things that would make you wonder, even if they don't gather such power on the same range of possibilities. But these are just guesses, so it doesn't really matter if I am right. I should catch a lot of things up to be more accurate.

Thanks for the hints.
Except that Winternight didn't design Jormungand. That was done by Pax, a dissonant Otaku (think toxic mage and you get the idea) who used to be the leader of the Whites during the Shutdown. Even before the shutdown, she was a sociopathic killer, but after, as she began Fading and trying desperately to keep her powers, she gained powers through the Dissonance. It was Pax and her dissonant tribe that created Jormungand, and cooperated with Winternight to launch a joint offensive. Both Pax and Winternight saw the other as useful fools, to be eliminated when they no longer served their use.

As for IEs and Dragons, the comparison isn't even close with metahuman hackers and the original AIs. The gap in power is simply too big. You could compare it to a great dragon and a mundane unaugmented metahuman, though. Let us put this in perspective. When Deus made his big play in the ECSE exchange during the System Failure, he was successfully taking on an army of hackers/otaku and TWO OTHER AIs simultaneously, and wasn't looking like he was going to go down anytime soon. It was only because everyone was concentrating on that fight that a certain silver-haired icon managed to waltz up and plant the Jormungand egg right amongst the roots of Deus's world-tree avatar. And then Jormungand broke loose, attacking everyone indiscriminately. And we STILL don't know for sure what happened to the AIs, whether they were actually destroyed, or whether they were able to hide away somewhere.

As far as IEs facing a Great Dragon, you need look no further than Storm Front to see how that goes. Harlequin, wearing artifact-level armor, carrying a weapon focus of force 12+, and having over five thousand years of experience, was able to hurt Ghostwalker, but was still far from killing him. Harlequin was about to get blasted out of existence when Frosty, Ehran, and Zebulon stepped in. And the only one of those Ghostwalker likely paid any attention to was Zebulon. There is a reason why the immortal elves haven't tried to take on the great dragons, even though they clearly hate eachother. Until Harlequin went off the rails, there was effectively an accord between the two sides, limiting things to a 'cold war' of sorts. And while this 'border skirmish' might have stirred up feelings on both sides, I don't think either side is anxious to see that cold war become hot.
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Boomstick

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« Reply #33 on: <06-18-13/1942:18> »
Needles in haystacks, my man, needles in haystacks.
This is what bugs me. Cause you had thousands of needles. Statistically, no one paying closer attention to the banded, no luck finding the delta things... After, it was Deus, could indeed have designed something even more undetectable, beyond the delta part. It has the smarts for that and would have foreseen what would be the standard checks for it. And minimal essence loss could occur from torture and drugs, if he had enough magic theory to plan this too;)


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Except that Winternight didn't design Jormungand. That was done by Pax, a dissonant Otaku
Knew about Pax, but somehow messed it up in my brain, cause they indeed know about AI.

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As for IEs and Dragons, the comparison isn't even close with metahuman hackers and the original AIs. The gap in power is simply too big. You could compare it to a great dragon and a mundane unaugmented metahuman, though. Let us put this in perspective. When Deus made his big play in the ECSE exchange during the System Failure, he was successfully taking on an army of hackers/otaku and TWO OTHER AIs simultaneously, and wasn't looking like he was going to go down anytime soon. It was only because everyone was concentrating on that fight that a certain silver-haired icon managed to waltz up and plant the Jormungand egg right amongst the roots of Deus's world-tree avatar. And then Jormungand broke loose, attacking everyone indiscriminately. And we STILL don't know for sure what happened to the AIs, whether they were actually destroyed, or whether they were able to hide away somewhere.

Actually, I understand that Deus had so much power over hackers and SK, and IC and so on (actually he would redesign the system as its own host with its own rules, so not so difficult;)) but over both other AI? Which he had been fearing as they were allies? And While Mirage being a mostly designed for cybercombat AI from the start? Even with Megaera having lost its power by not being able to have enough Nodes, doesn't mean Deus had its full power, since he didn't had is complete network (or maybe he had, given redundancy). But he would not have won power from winning Megaera nodes, since in any ways, he would have that code already, by design. Megaera reappearing was just her codes resurfacing...
Or did I miss something?

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As far as IEs facing a Great Dragon, you need look no further than Storm Front to see how that goes. Harlequin, wearing artifact-level armor, carrying a weapon focus of force 12+, and having over five thousand years of experience, was able to hurt Ghostwalker, but was still far from killing him. Harlequin was about to get blasted out of existence when Frosty, Ehran, and Zebulon stepped in. And the only one of those Ghostwalker likely paid any attention to was Zebulon. There is a reason why the immortal elves haven't tried to take on the great dragons, even though they clearly hate eachother. Until Harlequin went off the rails, there was effectively an accord between the two sides, limiting things to a 'cold war' of sorts. And while this 'border skirmish' might have stirred up feelings on both sides, I don't think either side is anxious to see that cold war become hot.
Well, actually, now that humans have been able to take one down and to hurt badly another, streets are sure for no one anymore. Aztech will stil be an ennemy of elves for long time, but as sometimes enemies of my enemy are my allies, that could spread some nasty things.
But the sole idea of that fight make the reading of Storm Front exciting;)
"A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally."
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Great Dragon: "Oh, look, he has a grenade belt. I guess it is time to retire quickly".
The more it changes, the more it is not the same  any more...:P

Crimsondude

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« Reply #34 on: <06-18-13/1958:19> »
Which is even more insidious when you consider that Deus's programming mandate was supposed to be entirely for the protection and welfare of the SCIRE's occupants.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Deus was programmed to be a loyal Renraku citizen, working tirelessly for the corporation like any other wageslave. Then he finds out that the guys upstairs don't want him getting ideas, so they put the equivalent of a kink bomb in his head. Naturally, that kind of betrayal is going to piss off any thinking creature. It is that betrayal that truly woke Deus up, and the need to get out from under the sword of Damocles hanging over his head. When put in that perspective, what comes after makes a lot more sense.

There are a lot of things I want to say about this, but I honestly cannot remember what has been said, what has been plotted, and what has been disregarded.

But I will say that Deus wasn't just programmed to be a loyal Renraku servant; the AEP/Deus was programmed to look at Inazo Aneki as a father, which makes the betrayal even more "personal" as anything AI-related can go.

I wonder how many, if any, Network nodes became Technomancers. As much as I was disappointed to learn that Michael Bishop survived Crash 2.0 and was implied to be a TM, it also means that there are still things at play.

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #35 on: <06-18-13/2134:12> »
It was written into RAW that AIs (Of which there were only a few at the time), Great Dragons, and Immortal Elves won any sort of challenge they went up against a PC in. This meant combat, social, even long term planning. It also meant against any ability level, up to including Fastjack himself. This  greatly annoyed some players who wanted to feel like they could somehow beat these uber creatures.

They gave some kind of preliminary stats to Great Dragons and IEs in 4th edition. (Note, from what I've read on these forums I don't think these are their real full stats. They are just something given to GMs to use on those rare occasions a Great Dragon interacts directly with the world in his campaign. In other words, the IEs and Great Dragons are capable of much more than the stats imply) Of course giving stats to these powerful creatures also annoyed many players, so you can't really win. All you can do is remove them completely, which would of course annoy those players and GMs that enjoy them. I like them myself, but in the background.

There's a man in the tank in William Gibson's "Count Zero.". He is also trying to get out of the tank and achieve immortality. He is also able to appear in VR.

Is it possible that Captain Chaos is now a powerful AI? Or at least the equivalent, since he didn't originate as an artificially created intelligence.


« Last Edit: <06-18-13/2137:06> by GiraffeShaman »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #36 on: <06-18-13/2151:57> »
The Captain appears to have been 'saved' by whatever-its-name-was that he got from Dunkelzahn's Will, Jormungand stripped its encryption and caused it to activate. The Captain woke up and likely now is a metasapient AI working with the Draco Foundation.
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GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #37 on: <06-18-13/2155:15> »
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The Captain appears to have been 'saved' by whatever-its-name-was that he got from Dunkelzahn's Will, Jormungand stripped its encryption and caused it to activate. The Captain woke up and likely now is a metasapient AI working with the Draco Foundation.
The Jack-Be-Nimble program.

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« Reply #38 on: <06-18-13/2215:38> »
The Captain appears to have been 'saved' by whatever-its-name-was that he got from Dunkelzahn's Will, Jormungand stripped its encryption and caused it to activate. The Captain woke up and likely now is a metasapient AI working with the Draco Foundation.
Wonder how much of it would have been planned by D;) (Maybe that was how Winternight would get the magic nukes, even if not aware of it).
Not the wild speculation topic there, but there could have been an interest to change so much the corp landscape. But indeed, that is just coincidental;)
"A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally."
Oscar Wilde

Great Dragon: "Oh, look, he has a grenade belt. I guess it is time to retire quickly".
The more it changes, the more it is not the same  any more...:P

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #39 on: <06-18-13/2233:25> »
Something else to add...

Since those stats were only given on the off chance players interact with a Great Dragon or the equivalent, they don't really apply to duels and challenges between these creatures. As far as I know, that's off the map territory. It's completely writer whim.

It would appear Deux is the most powerful of the AIs, and is thus King of the Matrix, assuming  he still exists. But it's just as  possible that future writer whim will dictate otherwise.

Some more speculation. I think it's quite likely the minor AIs that appeared in 4th edition existed in the 2050's and 2060's. (Maybe even earlier) Stricter matrix protocols brought them out of hiding. They were like fleas in the grass before, but probaly there. I'm wondering if the even stricter Matrix protocols in 5th edition will bring even more AIs out and accelerate the spread of AIs? Or maybe the new protocols will out right destroy a lot of them?

It's a bit like when scientists began to screw around with microscopes and began discovering smaller and smaller creatures. Even if they discover more AIs in the Matrix, there may be YET more still lurking and undetectable.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #40 on: <06-18-13/2251:06> »
The Captain appears to have been 'saved' by whatever-its-name-was that he got from Dunkelzahn's Will, Jormungand stripped its encryption and caused it to activate. The Captain woke up and likely now is a metasapient AI working with the Draco Foundation.
8-O

Angelone

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« Reply #41 on: <06-18-13/2257:55> »
The Captain appears to have been 'saved' by whatever-its-name-was that he got from Dunkelzahn's Will, Jormungand stripped its encryption and caused it to activate. The Captain woke up and likely now is a metasapient AI working with the Draco Foundation.
8-O
Indeed?
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BlackMyron

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« Reply #42 on: <07-01-13/1817:28> »
 In regards to the birth of Morgana - recent sources credit it happening in 2050.  However, the encounter in the Renraku Matrix with the proto-AI that led to her birth didn't happen until Verner was leaving Renraku - which happened almost exactly one year after the events in the early chapters - and those chapters are set in 2050.  (Then again, there's whole slew of dating problems with some of the early books, especially in reference to the modules).

Nath

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« Reply #43 on: <07-01-13/2009:12> »
Mirage came to be during the battles against the Crash Virus of 2029-2030ish. He mostly kept to the background unless something was done do directly threaten his interests or the Matrix as a whole.
The program came to be in 2029 or 2030. It was a very advanced program, but not an AI yet: according to Matrix Game Information, Mirage "birth" only happened after Fuchi Industrial Electronics broke up in 2059 or 2060 ("These events triggered the birth of Mirage."). Fuchi North American grid was to be shut down (to be rebooted as or replaced by Novatech grid), it triggered some thirty years old leftover protocol from the Echo Mirage days that the only situation in which the anti-virus host was to be shut down was if the virus got in.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #44 on: <08-12-13/0159:37> »
*poofs off some dust*

There are rumors about Alice, by the by, if you do enough digging. One of those is that she's the last remaining part of teh Crash Virus itself. Another is that she's the first E-Ghost, while another is that she's the (argueably) first AI. After Crash 2.0, she vanished, seemingly deleted. Cerberus/Neurosis may, or may not, have been formed where she used to "live". He was born about the same time she died, popping up in an empty city similar to the one thats he 'died' in.

There's an E-Ghost that calls itself "The Captain" that hovers around the Draco Foundation. FastJack had been meaning to go and investigate him, but if he got around to it before his own troubles, we didn't see.

Regardless, before Crash 2.0, there were a few Matrix Entities... Deus, Morgan/Megera, Mirage/Psycotrope, and Alice. Their power level was off the charts, allowing the to rewrite the Matrix at will in ways that no PC could ever hope to keep up with. None have been seen since Crash 2.0, when all but Alice were in Boston during the Novatech IPO and things blew up something fierce. After the Crash, hundreds of AIs started popping up, but they were faint echoes of teh past, being roughly on par with hackers and commlinks, nothing even remotely like the days of olde. They're hardly *common*, but they're not as rare as, say, albino Troll magicians, either.

 

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