[phydaux42]

How much karma and money do you guys give out after a session or series of sessions?

[bannockburn]

For every run (= complete adventure)

1 for each session played (this is an instantaneous reward after each session, but my players told me to wrap it into the end result)

1 for survival
1-2 per objective completed (depending on difficulty and or / number of objectives)
1 for risk (if applicable)
1 for smart play (if applicable)

Individual rewards:
1-2 for roleplaying
1 for coolness
1 for bravery against all odds
1 for humor (not often awarded)

I pretty much use the table on p. 269 SR4A.

I usually award money in relation to the average karma reward the players may receive, minus session and individual karma.
Let's say, it's a risky run (1 karma), with a main (2 karma) and a secondary objective (1 karma) and the characters survive (1 karma) and pull it off.
That's a reward base of 4 karma to go from, but the actual karmic reward would lie around 7-9 karma per player (let's say it took 2 sessions to complete this run).
I multiply the base reward with 2,500 Nuyen, because that's what a karma point gives you if you use karma generation when building a character.
So the base monetary reward is 10,000 Nuyen for each character. This base can be (and usually is) adjusted up and downwards. If it's a hooding run, I subtract 10%. If it's risky, the runners need to go to another country, need to deal with a dragon, etc. pp. (basically every complication), this gives 10% additional money, cumulative.
Also, there's a base addition of 10% per average street cred score.

An example:
The characters are experienced runners. They have earned around 100 karma each and have an average street cred of 10.
They are offered a run, where they need to travel abroad (1st complication), in a secure submarine (2nd complication), so they can't take their usual equipment, because space is at a premium (3rd complication). The average expected karmic reward for this fairly complicated run is 7.
7 x 2,500 = 17,500 Nuyen base pay. This is now multiplied with 130%, which means they are offered 40,250 Nuyen each. Because I don't like such numbers, the actual offer coming from the Johnson is 35,000 Nuyen. Why? Because he lowballs and expects negotiations. He is willing to pay up to 25% more than his expected amount, so the runners can negotiate him up to 50k Nuyen each. Negotiation successes are based off the initial and the max offer. The difference between 50k and 35k is 15k, so each net hit in the opposed test earns the runners an additional 1,500 Nuyen.

If the players are smart and fulfill all the objectives, and the run takes 5 sessions, they can earn up to 17 karma each, but the money stays the same (if they don't find some paydata or loot stuff).

Savvy?

[GiraffeShaman]

Money wise, you want to base it on what PCs make per month, since that is when lifestyle payments happen. Some GMs only allow 1 shadowrun per month, the explanation being that the PCs must spend some time resting and hiding. If your runners are doing multiple runs per month, that must be kept in mind.

After subjtracting run costs, such as bullets, the PCs should at least make low lifestyle costs. This is bare bones minimum and it's rare a GM pays less than this. Keep in mind that they could fail the missions or have to do one for free for a contact, which means this is most likely not enough for a longterm healthy campaign. A fairily common standard is that the PCs should make enough for middle lifestyle per month + a payment toward some longterm goal. How much as a payment for a longterm goal? To find that out, talk to the players. You'll probaly find out things like the Sam is saving up for Titanium Bone Lacing or some expensive gun. You'll find the mage is saving up for some foci. Once you know these goals, focus on how long you want til they achieve it. String it out a bit. But also keep in mind that failed runs and failures may slow this down anyway.

Karma rewards are pretty subjective. The guides in the book aren't set in stone. I find that individual rewards can cause problems, particularly in the roleplay area. No one likes hearing that you preferred the next player's roleplay over theirs or that the next player over was more clever than them. Thus I always reward by team. I base the reward on mission success and level of success. I generally give from 3 to 10 per run, per member, based on mission danger and level of success. Mission failure results in only one karma for survival. I use this to make sure the runners are very mission focused, as this is the main way to advance.

If you want to reward roleplaying, reward it with roleplaying scenes. Mechanical rewards can cause hard feelings. Also no GM is perfect and what constitutes "good roleplay' can vary widely.

[emsquared]

How to reward your PCs depends on a couple of things, IMO. What type of play-style does the table have and enjoy, and how often do you play. If you're playing a weekly game, you should reward less than if your group only meets once a month. Or if they're playing a bunch of street-level gangers, they shouldn't be making as much as (or getting the same jobs as) well-oiled, experienced operative teams will. I would even go so far as to say, reward a little more if your group tends toward the pink-mohawk side of things - because let's face it, they're not probably gonna last as long as the black-trench coat group.

Ultimately, reward them enough so that it is fun - so that they have a clear sense of progression.  There's no mystery to this, just be aware of what their goals are, what stuff costs (in Karma and nuyen), and what you're giving them and what you need to give them to have them achieve their and your goals. So don't be lazy and try and find some magic formula that someone else gives you. At the end of each run, you want them to be able to say, "oh yeah, this is why we're doing all this planning and taking all these risks". Because regardless of the type of campaign you play, the lives of runners tend to be brutal and short. And if you want the group to stick with the game, they need to have fun while they're alive. Which means you as GM must know how much it costs for Awakened to Initiate and for your Sammy to get his Alpha 'wares and your Hacker to get his rating 10 programs and wiz new 'link, etc. etc.

For a new GM and a new group, don't be too afraid that you're "over-rewarding" them. If it's; "oh gee, is 10 K ea. too much? maybe I should only give them 5K?", stop it. Just give them the higher end of what you think it should be. And absolutely give Karma and nuyen in equal measure (1 : 2,500 early on, more like 1:5K later, IMO). If at some point you feel "I've created monsters!!", you're the GM, it's not hard to take them out of their element for the next run or two, get the sammies away from their toys and the awakened in a high-background count area, or just solidly scale back rewards from then on, also if it's your first campaign, don't be afraid to just up and retire it (hopefully everyone will be on the same page), everyone take the lessons they've learned and move on - craft a better experience next time.

Also, I would advise against basing their pay on their Lifestyle. Not only is this illogical (your pay determines your lifestyle, not vice versa), it won't give them much of a sense of progression. Especially for your first experience with the game, let them get wiz gear and cool powers and have good skills and just have fun. See what the game has to offer, learn from it, then worry about micro-managing progression later.

[firebug]

Just a quick two sense on what the others have been telling you.  I'm a new GM too, so I've been wondering myself.  What emsquared says is really the best way I've found to handle it.  Mainly the "err on the high end of things" part.  If they seem to progress too quickly, you can always cut back, but if they go too slowly they risk growing bored or worse, being under-prepared for what they face.

One thing I usually do when I write an run is give it a bit of a meta in the risk/reward situation by setting up events that can both give more Karma in exchange for a point of Noteriety.  For instance, if I write a part where the group is cornered by Lone Star, I might decide to give the players an extra point of Karma if they manage to off all of them, but also give them some noteriety (even if there's no witnesses, word gets out about a whole group of cops getting gunned down at once).  It makes sense to me as a sort of "combat exp" like in D&D; they caused some unnecessary violence, but their skills will improve from it...  While their reputation becomes a bit darker.  I handle a lot of more "optional objectives" this way.

[Reaver]

Karma has been covered pretty well by the top few posters...


AS to money, well there are no hard and fast rules that say "they get $$$ for 'XXX' mission, and $$ for 'YYY' mission". It all depends on just how you want the game to progress, how "Gritty" your game is, and a few other factors......


PERSONALLY, I look at a few intangables when I come up with payments.

First, who is the run for??? A Johnson from a megacorp has more liquid capital to throw at a runner team then a Johnson from a Redmond Barrens neighbourhood watch. Johnsons that are not sponsored by a Mega need runners too... and if you set the bar too high, you create a paradox in your world. For example, you create a great story about some middling executive that has a wayward child get into a bind with the local mafia due to a drug debt.... But you have been paying the runners $25,000 each per run!!! now, some how this middling executive has to pay out the same amount ($100k if 4 players) or somehow pull on your player's heart strings to get them to take a run you have invested so much time to create!

Second, what is their Reputation like? Runners with a piss-poor rep, or a rep for being a pain in the ass to deal with don't have people throwing wads of cash their way.... in fact, it's just the opposite! If your runners have a high Noteriety, or/and a low Reputation, the runs they get should have relatively  small payout regardless of the dangers involved (after all, no one cares when Asshats get splattered, or people no one knows!! Again, if you have players with poor reps and you have been paying them out big bucks, then they are only going to expect MORE money as they build on a good rep....

Third, what is the composition of the team, and how fast do I want them to "level up"?? Technos and Awakened are heavily reliant on Karma for progression, so large payouts to these types of characters usually get spent on A) intangibles like Lifestyle, B) secondary buffs like Armor and gear, or C) useless crap. Augmented characters, Riggers, and Hackers progress in power faster through money then they do with Karma, After all Cyber/Bio ware gives a huge boost to just about anything for just some Neuyen and a little RP (IF you roleplay finding a street doc that is... most GM just hand wave it away with the augmentation) So, how quickly do I want that streetsam in Beta ware? (or Deltaware!! How fast do I want that gunbunny to have a gauss rifle? HOw fast do I want that rigger to have milspec drones? Or that Hacker running Milspec commlinks? Am I prepared for these purchases in the level and scope of the missions I am currently offering? Am I willing to watch hours of MY work blown apart in minutes cause the entire team outguns the run I put together to challenge them?


******
Yeppers, Money is a tricky thing in SR and if you ask 10 people on these forums "what is the right amount" you will get 12 different answers. the only thing I can offer you is this little piece of advice:

"The character's bellies should be full, but they should have to save up for a major purchases with out having to count pennies to make their ends meet."

[GiraffeShaman]

One thing I usually do when I write an run is give it a bit of a meta in the risk/reward situation by setting up events that can both give more Karma in exchange for a point of Noteriety.  For instance, if I write a part where the group is cornered by Lone Star, I might decide to give the players an extra point of Karma if they manage to off all of them, but also give them some noteriety (even if there's no witnesses, word gets out about a whole group of cops getting gunned down at once).  It makes sense to me as a sort of "combat exp" like in D&D; they caused some unnecessary violence, but their skills will improve from it...  While their reputation becomes a bit darker.  I handle a lot of more "optional objectives" this way.

This is a good example of "reward what you want to see in your game." The best use of karma is to keep the players on task. That usually means keeping them in the direction of unfolding your storyline, but it can really be anything you decide will make for a fun game. Btw the Genesis game gave something like 1 karma per ten kills. Thus ghoul hunting was a viable option, especially with a bit of negotiation skill.

On the opposite side of things, you can give bonus karma for not killing anyone, or keeping the kills low and non flashy. (For example, give bonus karma if the team makes an assassination look like a medication overdose)

[Reaver]

No offense Giraffe, but I HATE comparisons to how video games do anything they are built and designed to the lowest common denominator of players, and often run contradictory to the rules of the actual tabletop game they are based off

Should also note that the average mission in that game paid $300 a mission too (but no one points out THAT fact, just the X kills = Y karma. And shops ALL carry a wide selection of weapons... Including assault cannons!!)

[markelphoenix]

It's actually 1/16th of a Karma per kill, and 2/16th of a Karma for successfully manipulating a Matrix node in the Genesis game. Runs would range from 40 Nuyen to 6500 Nuyen, depending on difficult. They would also range from 1 - 6 Karma per run.

[Nobody]

I have my players give each other points for some categories. Humor/drama, smart/brave, sometimes good RP. Each player has a point to give out for each type. So someone who pulls a brilliant plan can easily get 2-4 karma for it if the whole group gives him their point. The upshot is that the more a player engages the group, the more karma they get, which I find keeps problem gaming styles from taking to solid a root.

As to monetary remuneration, much depends on how much Mr. Johnson want the run done. Emsquared's benchmark is good. I'd add that most Johnsons will try to lowball you, pending a Negotiation test.

[GiraffeShaman]

No offense Giraffe, but I HATE comparisons to how video games do anything  they are built and designed to the lowest common denominator of players, and often run contradictory to the rules of the actual tabletop game they are based off

Should also note that the average mission in that game paid $300 a mission too (but no one points out THAT fact, just the X kills = Y karma. And shops ALL carry a wide selection of weapons... Including assault cannons!!)

I was just responding to a player who mentioned that they want to reward karma for kills. It's not how I run my games. But the common thread is that you use karma to reward behavior you want in your own games. What that behavior is varies by GM and might even in some extreme cases mean bonuses for corpse defilings and selling enemies to Tanamous.

Oh, and actually the Genesis shadowrun did weapons sales pretty damn good for a 16 bit video game. Almost ridiculously well, considering the record of other games. The most illegal crap was sold in the crime mall in the Puyallup Barrens. When you go to a legit store like the store in the Renraku Arcology they only sell the tamer stuff. They do let you run around in full combat armor though, which is kinda ridiculous. You do buy it from the Yakuza though, not in a shop. I don't think there's an assault cannon either. Just up to assault rifles. I think there may be one on the Super Nintendo game, but that was always kind of the wacky one.

BTW you could make ridiculous loads of nuyen selling data you steal on the Matrix. Actually, I tend to spend about half my time playing in that subgame. It's addictive.

[StarManta]

I know this doesn't help you just now, but SR5 has a fairly formulaic way to suggest the per-player payout for a run based on the enemy, the largest opposing dice pool, and some other factors.

[Nal0n]

Ever thought about it from the other side?
What does a Runner have to make per month to cover his costs?

(Looking at my Elf Weapons Specialist here ... he has 132 Karma now)

Lifestyle
- Two Appartments (1 Middle-ish 1 Low-ish)
- Two Bolt Holes
- One Safehouse
- One Little Warehouse for his Armorer Facility
That is about 14k / month

IDs / SINs
- One Rating 6 SIN with 6 Licenses Must be expected to be burnt during a run
That's another 10k

Ammunition / expendable items / medical supplies
- Ammunition costs up to 45 NuYen per Bullet, do the math (and that is Handguns only, no Heavy Weapons). Depending on the run that can get real expensive real fast.
- Grenades and Explosives
- Medical Patches
- MedKit refills
- Bills from the Street Doc (if it goes really wrong)
Estimated that would normally be 3k+

Equipment
- Damage to / loss of: Weapons, Armor, Vehicles, Drones, Foci has to be factored in. Depending on Profession this can add up quickly too.
- Upkeep for hacked programs (2k / month)

Contacts
I calculate a hundred NuYen per rating per month at least for keeping the contacts happy.
In this case that would be 4000 NuYen per month

going out / getting new clothes / drugs etc.
Another 1000 at least. Why should I be running if I cannot have some fun now and then?

Then there is new Equipment to buy etc.

I cannot see how he can go with less than 50k to 60k per month. And that should also factor into what he asks for specific jobs and what the Johnson should pay him.

[Michael Chandra]

Clothes and going out are included in your lifestyle.

If you're burning a full-rating SIN each run you're doing something wrong. I'd expect a rating-4 to be burned twice a year and a rating-6 'real' ID once a year, that's less than 2k per month average.

2 Apartments, 2 personal bolt holes and a warehouse? And you're including a safehouse, which is expensive as hell at payment per week, in there? You're using an awful lot of cash there.

>3k per run on supplies is pretty much insane unless you've long since become a Prime Runner.

Hacked programs shouldn't require 2k per month for a normal runner, since upkeep is at 10% of the rating difference price. Even a Hacking program is only 100 at that point. 2k is what the team's Hacker would pay.

The expenses you put down are fitting for a paranoid high-level Prime Runner, not a normal runner. A normal runner would be at 5k~8k depending on how paranoid, prepared and sharing with the team they are.

[Ricochet]

Ever thought about it from the other side?
What does a Runner have to make per month to cover his costs?

(Looking at my Elf Weapons Specialist here ... he has 132 Karma now)

Lifestyle
- Two Appartments (1 Middle-ish 1 Low-ish)
- Two Bolt Holes
- One Safehouse
- One Little Warehouse for his Armorer Facility
That is about 14k / month

IDs / SINs
- One Rating 6 SIN with 6 Licenses Must be expected to be burnt during a run
That's another 10k

Ammunition / expendable items / medical supplies
- Ammunition costs up to 45 NuYen per Bullet, do the math (and that is Handguns only, no Heavy Weapons). Depending on the run that can get real expensive real fast.
- Grenades and Explosives
- Medical Patches
- MedKit refills
- Bills from the Street Doc (if it goes really wrong)
Estimated that would normally be 3k+

Equipment
- Damage to / loss of: Weapons, Armor, Vehicles, Drones, Foci has to be factored in. Depending on Profession this can add up quickly too.
- Upkeep for hacked programs (2k / month)

Contacts
I calculate a hundred NuYen per rating per month at least for keeping the contacts happy.
In this case that would be 4000 NuYen per month

going out / getting new clothes / drugs etc.
Another 1000 at least. Why should I be running if I cannot have some fun now and then?

Then there is new Equipment to buy etc.

I cannot see how he can go with less than 50k to 60k per month. And that should also factor into what he asks for specific jobs and what the Johnson should pay him.

Unless this is a prime runner at the top of his game...I see this as someone who will burn out of the industry quickly.  Learning to live on a budget is a necessity.