[Triskavanski]

Well it depends on how good you roll on your intimidation really. If you've only got one intimidation die then yeah. You ain't doing anything. I told you to make the enemy feel it. And obviously you can't scare robots. So don't try to do it with robots. cause that would be stupid.

Also, learn to multitask. If you can only laugh while standing still, then don't do it. Duh.


I said to make them feel the sharpness of your whip. Unnerve them. Not stand around with your thumb up your bum while trying to laugh like a five year-old school girl. I mean if you're an alchemist you wouldn't go "Oh hang on guys.. I need to enchant my doodad" in the middle of combat to the bad guys would you? Obviously you need to think a little bit.

[Xenon]

Can you suppress people with it?

Yes, in fact you can. Game mechanic-wise.


Suppressive fire put a negative dice pool modifier on people i the area.
People trying to move through the area might get hit.

Melee put a negative dice pool modifier on ranged targets locked in melee.
People trying to move through the melee range might get hit.


Melee never been in such a good spot as it is in SR5.

[Namikaze]

Melee put a negative dice pool modifier on ranged targets locked in melee.
People trying to move through the melee range might get hit.

I get what you're saying.  You're saying that while a monofilament whip can't use the "Suppressive Fire" action, it can have a similar effect with the "Defender in Melee Target of Ranged Attack" penalty, but that penalty is fixed and only applies to ranged attacks made against a target in melee combat.  And it will only work with the target of the melee combat, which means it can only affect a couple people at once, not a whole area.  Suppressive Fire is not the same thing, as it's more versatile.

However, I do agree that melee combat is a lot better in general.  Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration....  *waits for Run & Gun*

[RHat]

You know, something occurs to me for melee specialists - if you got Ultrasound based perception through one means or another, and had someone fire in a semi-auto burst of Smoke and Thermal Smoke (or had them strapped to yourself and triggered them as you hit the enemy)...

[Xenon]

...but that penalty is fixed and only applies to ranged attacks made against a target in melee combat. 

Attacker (not target) being in melee combat get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice for any ranged attacks.
(and an additional -2 dice if he is trying to hit the guy that just charged him since he is considered running)

And targets that are now locked in melee will get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice when the team-mates of the melee character shoot at them because of Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack.

And it will only work with the target of the melee combat, which means it can only affect a couple people at once, not a whole area. 

With melee you can attack up to weapon skill / 2 (round up) targets at once by spending a free action (so instead of a running single target charge attack you use a walking multiple attack;  with a weapon skill of 7 you can lock down 4 targets at once in one single action phase).

Also, Monowhip got a very good reach (which give the defender a negative dice pool modifier when trying to avoid getting hit, similar to using burst fire with a ranged weapon).

Any if the targets are trying to leave, enter or move through melee range (which with a monowhip is a PBAoE of 4 meters, or 5 meters on a Troll) risk getting hit by Interception. This a full attack using full dice pool doing full damage if it hits, and it only cost 5 initiative score. Suppressive fire is a frontal cone attack that is 10 meters wide at widest. Suppressive fire also hit friends and foe. Interception area is a circular area that is 8 meters across (or 10 meters for Troll) and does only affect hostile targets (no friendly fire).

Suppressive Fire is not the same thing, as it's more versatile.

Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.
They both have pros and cons.
In some situations Suppressive Fire will be better for area denial and debuffing.
In others it will be better to send in the martial artist expert for area denial and debuffing.

Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration.... 

5(7) accuracy and -8AP not enough for you...??

[Insaniac99]

Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration.... 

5(7) accuracy and -8AP not enough for you...??

And 6( with the proper adept build! (plus the extra damage)

Seriously, be VERY afraid of the physical adept using a monowhip.  With the right build they will 1-shot almost anything less than a dragon with 13p base damage and ~20 dice to attack, you are talking at least 15P -8AP damage on average.

Give that Adept 12-14+ dice to dodge, plus a decent set of armor to for when absorb when they do get hit, well suffice to say that the dedicated Whip adept is vicious (and I've never seen one glitch *knock on wood*)

[firebug]

Any if the targets are trying to leave, enter or move through melee range (which with a monowhip is a PBAoE of 4 meters, or 5 meters on a Troll) risk getting hit by Interception. This a full attack using full dice pool doing full damage if it hits, and it only cost 5 initiative score. Suppressive fire is a frontal cone attack that is 10 meters wide at widest. Suppressive fire also hit friends and foe. Interception area is a circular area that is 8 meters across (or 10 meters for Troll) and does only affect hostile targets (no friendly fire).

Mm, it's like D&D with a Spiked Chain and Combat Reflexes all over again.  But in Shadowrun no-one just figured "meh I can take a monofilament wire to the torso, I'll be fine".  What's the term?  "Horrible Rape Radius"?

The Interception ability combined with the penalties inflicted to someone trying to shoot in melee is all that's needed to make it worthwhile IMO.  You jump on someone and they're not getting away without taking some damage.

[Namikaze]

Attacker (not target) being in melee combat get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice for any ranged attacks.
(and an additional -2 dice if he is trying to hit the guy that just charged him since he is considered running)

And targets that are now locked in melee will get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice when the team-mates of the melee character shoot at them because of Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack.

And suppressive fire gives a penalty of -X to all actions in the area, where X is the number of hits on the test.  So...  not the same.

With melee you can attack up to weapon skill / 2 (round up) targets at once by spending a free action (so instead of a running single target charge attack you use a walking multiple attack;  with a weapon skill of 7 you can lock down 4 targets at once in one single action phase).

And suppressive fire lays down on all targets in the area, which could be...  20 targets?  100 targets?  2 targets?  Again, not the same.

Suppressive fire also hit friends and foe.

True, but don't expect that to last.  The Advanced Safety System from 4th edition will likely come back with Run & Gun.

Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration.... 

5(7) accuracy and -8AP not enough for you...??
[/quote]

Yes, the whip has those stats.  But most melee weapons do not.  Most are high accuracy, but low AP.  6 accuracy is great, but -2 AP is not so awesome.  I can get better stats with a Predator V and APDS rounds.  I'm just saying that it'll be nice once we have rules for modifying melee weapons.

[Xenon]

Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.

[Leevizer]

Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.

"You guys go on ahead, I'll cover you!" The adept said, swinging his monofilament whip.

Too bad the HTR-team brought guns.

[Csjarrat]

Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.

"You guys go on ahead, I'll cover you!" The adept said, swinging his monofilament whip.

Too bad the HTR-team brought guns.

Exactly. Melee is only better in 5th because you can only shoot once in a pass now. It still remains very situational, working better in a close quarters, high cover area. In a larger, more open space you're quite likely to end up all "last of the samurai". If your gm is gonna build in plenty of opportunity for you to shine in melee then superb, have fun. If not, I'd recommend building for ranged combat and take melee as a backup rather than a primary.

[Xenon]

true dat.

most our fire-fights are indoors...
...which basically mean you almost never have more than 15 meters to your target.


But at that range -using SR5 rules- the melee guy is not more exposed than his ranged team mates. Quite the opposite actually. Since the melee guy will almost always be considered running (to benefit from the positive dice pool modifier from charged attacks) and since his ranged team mates don't always spend a simple action to Take Cover he is often the hardest character to hit (even before you add the fact he is an adept that focused quite a lot on being hard to hit).

If you have a ranged weapon and a melee guy charge you (considered running), your best bet is to quick draw a melee weapon of your own
- but if that is not an option then you would want to use your ranged weapon to shoot the Shaman in the background (that is spending complex actions waving his arms instead of rather than seeking cover) rather than the melee adept with the Katana (at least if you look at the math).

[Namikaze]

But at that range -using SR5 rules- the melee guy is not more exposed than his ranged team mates. Quite the opposite actually. Since the melee guy will almost always be considered running (to benefit from the positive dice pool modifier from charged attacks) and since his ranged team mates don't always spend a simple action to Take Cover he is often the hardest character to hit (even before you add the fact he is an adept that focused quite a lot on being hard to hit).

If you have a ranged weapon and a melee guy charge you (considered running), your best bet is to quick draw a melee weapon of your own
- but if that is not an option then you would want to use your ranged weapon to shoot the Shaman in the background (that is spending complex actions waving his arms instead of rather than seeking cover) rather than the melee adept with the Katana (at least if you look at the math).

You make a lot of assumptions here.  The point is that ranged combat and melee combat are in no ways "similar."  They have very different mechanics, as expressed by the charging bonus in your own example.  But this is digressing at this point.

[Leevizer]

most our fire-fights are indoors...

Yes, most. There's not much you can do when you need to charge down a 50-meter corridor with little to no cover if you're only able to melee.

But then again, Shadowrun is a game about co-op, so if someone else lays down covering fire and you manage to use that to advance to your deadly melee range, then be my quest...

But then again: Do both. Especially for player characters it's not that hard to pick, for example, blades 4 and automatics 4 for 8 skill points or both skills at rating 2 with appropriate specialities to be able to decently melee and shoot? Yes, obviously you will get your ass handed to that superior melee adept who rolls 40 die on the charge. But then again, atleast it gives you more of a fighting chance, especially against everyone else?

[Xenon]

Agreed

A combat oriented Street Samurai probably have at least one melee skill that he can use when the situation calls for it - and then an array of ranged skills and weapons to choose from as well.