[Longshot23]

This does seem vaguely related to the idea of BTL-chips supposedly containing the recordings of spirit-possessed subjects (Clutch of Dragons, pg 87-88). I can see the differences between recording astral space and recording a possessed person (?) but I can also imagine there being a demand for astral recordings among the mundane glitterati.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, it isn't possible; the designers at the very start stated, and it's been a part of the bedrock presumption ever since, that Tech cannot sense or interface with any sort of Mana-based magical phenomenon, whether spell, manifesting astral presence, or astral space.  Once the magic starts creating physical events, then yes, tech can sense it and record it; but it cannot perceive or record perceptions of mana or the astral.

Right now, the argument for this is 'well, you see with your eyes, and it can record what you see, so if you see astral stuff, you can record astral stuff'.  This is fundamentally wrong - because you do not see mana events with your eyes.  You don't even sense them with your mind; you see them with, for want of a better term, with your soul.  The tech can record your thoughts, your emotions, your physical responses, your chemical levels, and all your physical senses; it's tapped directly into your brain, after all, and thus the argument runs.

But that tech, despite being directly interfaced with a living person, is a dead part of them - its implantation has had an impact on their spiritual self (i.e. Essence), and weakened their link with the spiritual/mystic part of the universe.  Because it is tech, even if you have a mind-blowing astral perception experience, and even though it will record your heightened neurotransmitter levels and emotional responses and everything else, the essential (pun intended) part of the experience is not something that the tech can tap into.

Which part of the tech goes into astral with the implanted mage when he leaves his body?  Because that's the part of the tech that's needed in order to record mana-based magical events.  But so far, they haven't been able to hook the tech into the soul ...

[martinchaen]

Wyrm
A simrig need not be an implant, so your comment on Essence is just plain wrong; trodes, a commlink with a sim-module, and the simrig itself is apparently all that's needed in terms of tech in order to record one's emotive and sensory experience data. Also, I do believe I stated in my later post that I was speaking of Astral Perception, not Astral Projection, though I will argue that some part of the projecting magician's "soul", if that's what you want to call it, stays behind, seeing as how the in-game mechanics allow for perception tests to be taken at -6 modifier to notice something that happens to one's body. I'd also point you to this quote from Arsenal regarding manatech:

As the Sixth World advances, more and more engineers and magicians have conspired to combine magic and technology in new ways. The results of these collaborations have been dubbed manatech. Recent breakthroughs have focused the majority of research on the products of Awakened critters and enchanting.

The description of the background count measuring device you mentioned earlier (referred to as an Ambient Magical Potentiometer, by the way), states pretty clearly that the tech is "currently in it's infancy", and that the technology is both "expensive and fragile, but it does work". This kind of information coupled with what we know about experiments such as Project Imago is a clear indication to me that someone, somewhere could be, and likely is, working on any number of new technologies we have yet to even dream of, and that's quite enough for me in this case.

Thanks again, though.

[EDIT]
Let's also not forget Arthur C. Clarke's third "law": Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Food for thought...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I would say that everything you're talking about exactly punctuates my statement.  The only thing outside the bounds (as it were) is Project Imago, but that's one of those woeful abortions created by Carl Sargent.  (Note: he's also who came out with the London Sourcebook, aka 'the game's power increases with each new sourcebook' and ''cause everything's better in England'.)  Since it got into the game, the developers are required to accept it, and it's nice to play with and refer to something that comes from the hoary archives, but since it goes against that basic element of Shadowrun (which none of the rest of 'manatech' does, Clarke's Third notwithstanding, since this is Shadowrun, and there is a stated separation of magic and technology) it's something that should never produce results.

Again, you can play it in your game the way you want, so feel free to have it work.  It's changing a core concept of the game, though.

[martinchaen]

Wyrm
Wait, what? How does anything I said "punctuate" your argument? What is your argument, really? At this point, you've lost me entirely...

Also, what the what? So, just because a source book is written by someone you seem to dislike* you're ready to discount an aspect of the game that has been around since the 1st fraggin' Edition? Don't get me wrong, I like you, but that is to my mind a rather absurd stance, and not remotely deserving of you.
* And I'll be honest, I had never even heard the name Carl Sargent because I really don't care who writes these books (sorry, past and current writers, but it's true; please do keep it up, though, and I'll keep buying them!

Also, also, Project Imago is decidedly not the "only thing" that is canonically outside the bounds of meshing Magic and Technology.

First of all, no one really understands what the hell Technomancy really is, though I do seem to recall that you're vehemently opposed to even the idea that it could somehow be related to magic, so let's just leave that one alone for now, I've got plenty of other references.

Cybermancy, for example, is very clearly described in Augmentation as "a multidisciplinary science that merges magical arts, advanced medical techniques, and sophisticated cybernetics". That one line defies your argument that Project Imago is the only thing outside the bounds, as it says so right there; "merges magical art, advanced medical techniques, and sophisticated cybernetics".

Furthermore, and also in Augmentation, the process of Revitalization is described as a way to restore lost Essence "by genetically remodeling DNA to repair damage to the aura or balance to the body’s systems" in order to perform some sort of "genetic Feng Shui"; again, clearly using known (or at least theorized in the modern world) scientific methods to achieve a desired result which in this case just happens to include "restoring" the "soul", as you yourself called it, of a human being. To me, that reads like a scientific method with mystical, if not magical, results, but as always, the specific details are shrouded in mystery.

In Storm Front, it is specifically mentioned that "a large part of " the formula for Blue-227, the biochemical weapon used as part of Aztech's Operation: Marauder to bring down Sirrurg, is magically based, which the observers (The Smiling Bandit and his unnamed colleague) find to be "a mystery, because it's not necessary for the overall formula". Again, just a tiny hint, but it's there, and just like the AMP, "it works".

I could go on, but these examples are just what I could come up with off the top of my head. The real mystery to me is this:

If you really believe that the current writers fully intend for there to not even be the slightest chance of overlap between magic and technology (please do correct me if this is not what you're trying to say), then how in the seven hells do you explain that a completely different set of writers than those who wrote the original Imago* chose to continue the in-game reference to not only Project Imago but Eliohann himself by allowing him to survive into the 2070s as an e-ghost** in the Matrix, with Celedyr seemingly equally happy to let him continue on with his crack-brained research into a dragon-machine interface? Even if I accepted that Carl Sargent's writing should be dismissed "just because you say so" (and that's what it sounds like to me), the current writers could very easily have dismissed this particular vein of the lore as simply a fluke, but they didn't.

To reiterate, instead of having manatech go the way of the dodo bird, the writers actively included the continuation and expansion of Project Imago into a 4th Edition adventure book, hinted at a magical base in the formula of Blue-227 which disabled a fraggin' dragon(!), introduced Revitalization***, (re-)re-introduced cybermancy, and showcased e-ghost or elints (or whatever the cause of CFD turns out to be) who are able to use the magical talents of their Awakened "hosts" to blow the Society of the Phoenix Rising New Years Eve party halfway to high heaven.

* Imago is copyrighted 1992 in the publication I have, at least, so I presume it was published around that time
**  He's confirmed to be the digital entity known as Cerberus at least as of Corporate Intrigue
***  At least I don't personally know of Revitalization existing as of 3rd Edition

But, since you've brought it up, and since I've been called upon this before, I'm going to follow CanRay's advice from a thread earlier this year:

as such, I believe that <insert belief here> is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.

As such, maybe talk to said writer!  I'm right here!

<znip>

CanRay! Would you mind weighing in on this one, please? From an official-like point of view and stuff; there's cookies in it for you...

Much obliged.

[CanRay]

as such, I believe that <insert belief here> is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.

As such, maybe talk to said writer!  I'm right here!

<znip>

CanRay! Would you mind weighing in on this one, please? From an official-like point of view and stuff; there's cookies in it for you...

Much obliged.

I can officially state at this time that I like cookies. 

[martinchaen]

* shakes fist at the insolent writer*
Damn dirty CanRay! What good are you? Get back to the typewriter if you're not going to contribute!

[SlowDeck]

as such, I believe that <insert belief here> is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.

As such, maybe talk to said writer!  I'm right here!

<znip>

CanRay! Would you mind weighing in on this one, please? From an official-like point of view and stuff; there's cookies in it for you...

Much obliged.

I can officially state at this time that I like cookies. 

Bwahahahahahaha!

Can you at least confirm that if you had to capacity to confirm or deny you would state the capacity to confirm or deny if asked about if you can confirm or deny it?

[martinchaen]

Fine... How about UN-officially, CanRay. What are your thoughts on the subject of this thread?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Here it is in a nutshell: non-physical magic (which includes the astral) affects living things, and living things alone.  Tech can affect living things.  However, a direct tech/magic interface is never going to happen, and this includes tech of any type, even implanted (and so being considered part of the body) being able to record mana-based events.

Every example you've given so far - cybermancy, Blue-227, revitalization, Eliohann as an e-ghost, elints at the Society of the Phoenix Rising, technomancers - has one thing in common: a biological base, for both magic and tech to work on.

• Cybermancy implants tech into the body, and uses magic to keep the soul attached to the technically-on-life-support 'living corpse'.
• Blue-227 is a biochemical weapon - which presumably requires magic to be applied to the biological portion in order to activate elements that will make it efficacious against a Great Dragon.
• Revitalization is exactly as you say - a biological procedure, tweaking the genetics of the individual to encourage a mana-friendly environment, if you will.  No, it doesn't exist in previous editions, but the effects of the removal of cyberware has always been a question mark that 4e answered - it leaves an essence hole, which revitalization allows you to fill back up.
• Eliohann's body is still alive, if on 'complete immersion' life support, so it's an open question as to whether or not he's actually an e-ghost.  Even if he is, the aforementioned e-ghost doesn't possess active magic.
• The elints occupying magical individuals is a operating system overwrite, if you will - changed the mental pattern, but didn't necessarily change the soul of the individual, and definitely didn't change the magic.  Elint seizure allows for the skills and memories to remain relatively intact - but having skills doesn't automatically mean having familiarity with how to use them at the same level of control.  And magic requires a lot of self-control.
• You would be wrong if you think I've ever been adverse to magic being involved with technomancers.  If it does, however, the magic would be enabling a technomancer brain to access the electronics - not accessing the electronics directly.  Think of it more like your hand - your brain (the magic) doesn't grip the glass (the technology), your brain (magic) directs your hand (technomancer brain) to grip the glass (technology).  It's a very fine line, but it's the closest anything comes to what we're discussing.

Having gone back and looked at Imago, which I hate because it railroads the characters at every step, Sargent at least states that the events of the run are a once-ever event, and are not to be taken as or referred to as a precedent for other such things occurring.  I don't like the London Sourcebook because it's one of those sourcebooks in which 'everything is better' - or more powerful, or whatever.  Sargent's work is, simply, bad work.  But like every developer, I do accept it as canon, because it is canon.  As is the statement of Imago being a 'once-ever' event.

So really?  All the points you're using are reinforcing my statement - there is no direct technology-magic interaction, save where the magic creates a physical effect.

[martinchaen]

Thank you for elaborating, Wyrm, that makes everything much more clear.

And to that, I have but a single response; biological computing. I really don't think it's all that difficult to come up with some sort of rationale for pushing the boundaries of the science and magic.

Isn't that part of the game, taking the universe and making it your own? For me at least, that's part of the fun.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Isn't that part of the game, taking the universe and making it your own? For me at least, that's part of the fun.

And I never said you shouldn't or can't - you by all means should do so.  I'm just reminding you, and always have been, not to confuse what's in your game, or the consequences of it, with what's in the canon.

[martinchaen]

And I'm just politely disagreeing with you on what canon may or may not allude to

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I dunno, man.  It's pretty tough to argue with five editions worth of out-of-character statements that say 'no direct magic-tech interface'.  Even if in-game they're doing as much research as they can, even if the Big D set out rewards for discovering a way in his will ... the game line was, and has always been, 'cameras can't see mana events, tech can't record astral perception, no magic-tech interfaces ever', so ... not a lot of wiggle room, in my view.

[SlowDeck]

It's pretty easy to see how they could do it, though.

One of the key points is that magic requires a biological component. And, unfortunately, Shadowrun opens a massive can of worms that I don't think the developers have realized the implications of.

One of the constant ideas in science-fiction and even in some cyberpunk is utilizing biological components to take over for components that are purely electronic or chemical today. One of the ideas I've seen bandied around is biological data chips; they're basically genetically-engineered brain tissue that exists inside plastic shell. The idea is that you can use those to transfer far greater sums of knowledge in certain areas than microchips will ever be capable of doing. Given the levels of genetic engineering and cybernetic enhancement in Shadowrun, they most likely have passed the threshold where such technology is possible.

Then again, it might not be possible even then to store the necessary experience, just due to the biological chip lacking an aura.