[Xenon]

full cyber limbs are balanced. they have their advantages and drawbacks.
you get most bang for the buck on low physical attribute characters that don't have skills that depend on physical limit.

however....

cyber-feet does not affect your movement rate, limits or skill test that involve more than just your feet.
cyber-hand does not affect your attribute rating, limits or skill tests unless you only specifically use that hand

...so even a high physical attribute character that use a lot of skills that depend on physical limit can still grab 2 used cyber feet and a used left hand with 3 armor in each for less than 1 essence (all during chargen). This is armor that you don't even need strength to support, so he would still be free to layer additional armor from run n gun on top of this.

he would have to pay 4.5 essence (or power points) to do the same with bone lacing and dermal plating (or mystic armor)....

[Michael Chandra]

So... having all 4 cyber limbs still uses your natural attribute for physical limits..? So having 4 fully customized limbs is just a huge waste to get them...

You mean aside from having '9' Agi, '9' Strength and +8 Armor on a 3 Agi 3 Strength character, for ~380k and 4 essence? Where the alternative would be 6 Agi, 6 Strength, +4 soak and +4 armor, for 177k and 4.25 essence? So basically you spend more cash for taking Stun damage more easily, punching far heavier, hitting ~+15% more often with an average of 1 damage more from that as well (+additional hits), and it comes at the expense of a low Physical Limit and low movement rate.

I don't really see a reason why cyberlimbs should affect your limits: that's not what they're for. If you want to change your limits, you could just get stat-boosting 'ware.

I don't really see why Technomancers should exist... thats what deckers are for.

If you want sympathy, I suggest you do not ridicule people that disagree with you and don't exaggerate. Even if they do not impact your Limits and other Innate values, that doesn't mean Cyberlimbs are suddenly a huge waste. You get them for your Sprinting, your Gymnastics (Climbing&Swimming), your attacks, your melee damage, for being more solid and capable of taking more hits, you simply don't get some other advantages. Everything At A Price.

If you want your GM to houserule this, I suggest you come with some logical arguments, rather than (like now) with emotional ones without real support. Movement Rate can be reasoned for Cyberlegs and I have it on the houserule topic's list, but I have not seen you offer a decent argument as to why you should get to avoid the Limit penalty while still avoiding Augmented Maximum.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

So... having all 4 cyber limbs still uses your natural attribute for physical limits..? So having 4 fully customized limbs is just a huge waste to get them...

You mean aside from having '9' Agi, '9' Strength and +8 Armor on a 3 Agi 3 Strength character, for ~380k and 4 essence? Where the alternative would be 6 Agi, 6 Strength, +4 soak and +4 armor, for 177k and 4.25 essence? So basically you spend more cash for taking Stun damage more easily, punching far heavier, hitting ~+15% more often with an average of 1 damage more from that as well (+additional hits), and it comes at the expense of a low Physical Limit and low movement rate.

I don't really see a reason why cyberlimbs should affect your limits: that's not what they're for. If you want to change your limits, you could just get stat-boosting 'ware.

I don't really see why Technomancers should exist... thats what deckers are for.

If you want sympathy, I suggest you do not ridicule people that disagree with you and don't exaggerate. Even if they do not impact your Limits and other Innate values, that doesn't mean Cyberlimbs are suddenly a huge waste. You get them for your Sprinting, your Gymnastics (Climbing&Swimming), your attacks, your melee damage, for being more solid and capable of taking more hits, you simply don't get some other advantages. Everything At A Price.

If you want your GM to houserule this, I suggest you come with some logical arguments, rather than (like now) with emotional ones without real support. Movement Rate can be reasoned for Cyberlegs and I have it on the houserule topic's list, but I have not seen you offer a decent argument as to why you should get to avoid the Limit penalty while still avoiding Augmented Maximum.

it was a flippant response to a flippant response... being facetious is an excellent way to highlight inanity.....

Not looking for sympathy... was addressing the fact that the "Limit" system is a brand new system and maybe it wasn't 100% fully realized in all aspects. That's just a part of us being finite being incapable of perfect omniscience....  im not addressing the 2 feet/left hand armor cheese but a full blown cyberlimb exchange where at least half of the body has been replaced... hence why I posited 2 different ways of dealing with it and favoring one of them... that it be run similarly to the Damage track addition... meaning hands and feet count for nothing and partial limbs count for half... even then the increase to Limit doesn't start until 2 limbs and results in a whooping +3 for a four cyberlimbed character... but none of that was addressed just "build a different character" cause cyberlimbs dont work like that... I personally am a horrific rules lawyer and hate house ruling with a passion, so when I am considering it I kbow the system isn't fully functional... I love the concept and the application is great... hut even God needed two different Genesis stories....

[ZeConster]

I don't really see a reason why cyberlimbs should affect your limits: that's not what they're for. If you want to change your limits, you could just get stat-boosting 'ware.

I don't really see why Technomancers should exist... thats what deckers are for.

That's a dumb argument. Technomancers are different from deckers, and do things differently - which is precisely the point I was making about cyberlimbs.

it was a flippant response to a flippant response... being facetious is an excellent way to highlight inanity.....

I wasn't being flippant. I was pointing out that cyberlimbs are NOT the augmentations you get if you want better limits - their niche lies elsewhere. I strongly suggest you try to actually read people's posts before going off like that in the future.

[martinchaen]

I wasn't being flippant. I was pointing out that cyberlimbs are NOT the augmentations you get if you want better limits - their niche lies elsewhere. I strongly suggest you try to actually read people's posts before going off like that in the future.

Your reply came across as pretty flippant to me, so I can see why I_AM_ZHOUL!!! responded the way he did.


But anyway. Since I_AM_ZHOUL!!!'s had some suggestions, let's do something productive instead of slinging dirt, and let's take a look at the math.

B. Cyberlimb(s) add to your physical limit at a flat rate similar to Physical condition monitor as follows...
   a. 1 Cyberlimb   +0
   b. 2 Cyberlimbs +1
   c. 3 Cyberlimbs +2
   d. 4 Cyberlimbs +3

This suggestion is pretty easy to calculate, and in my opinion you end up with a fairly balanced setup. See attachment for details.

For example, a human character who dumpstats both AGI, BOD, and STR, and who has four cyberlimbs (both arms and legs) ends up with a Physical limit of 5. A single cyberarm, regardless of the attributes of the limb, changes nothing.

With all 6s in physical stats the first characters physical limit ends up at 11, while a character with 6 BOD and 8 in STR and AGI (from Muscle Replacement or Muscle Augmentation and Toner at Rating 2) will have a 10. Cyberlimbs still cost more, however, so I think it's fair that they also do more.

A. The cyberlimb(s) attribute rating is averaged into the base stat (strength) before calculation on a percentage basis (25%/50/% 75%/100%)

This suggestion becomes a fraggin' nightmare to calculate, because you now have to factor in the attribute of the limb and average the stats before calculating the limits. Not so bad when you create a single character; much more difficult when trying to illustrate how this affects multiple scenarios. As a result, I'll do three array calculations; one each with the cyberlimb attributes at 3, 6, and 9, with the respective Natural AGI, BOD, and STR at the same levels for simplicity. Also note that I'm rounding up wherever needed.

Since the data here is pretty immense, I've attached a screenshot of my findings so you can all make your own conclusions. I personally find this approach to be relatively balanced as well, but much more time consuming to keep track of.

As you can tell, a four limbed character with AGI 9 and STR 9 attributes ends up with the same 11 physical limit as with the second proposed method, but must now take a BOD of at least 4. Four STR 3 limbs will actually HURT your limit if you have higher natural stats, which I think adds flavour and more accurately represents "reality".

After all, if a top-tier athlete (STR 6 AGI 6) gets cheap replacements (STR3 AGI3), should he really be able to move as if he still had his natural attributes? In my opinion, HELL NO; according to RAW game mechanics, apparently so. As such, I agree with I_AM_ZHOUL!!! in that in my opinion this is an area where the developers might not have considered the bigger picture, because the game mechanics fail to adequately portray what I think of as "reality".

[Xenon]

if we are talking house rules....

• cyberlimbs now come, automatically and at no extra cost, customized to the same strength and agility rating as the owner's natural attribute ratings
• minimal cyberlimb strength and agility attribute ratings is equal to owners metatype minimal attribute rating + 2 (so 3 for humans, str 5 for orcs etc.)
• you can no longer customize strength or agility beyond your natural attribute ratings
• if the owner later raise his strength or agility ratings then cyberlimb's strength and agility can be retrofit customized an equal amount using the listed customization cost
• cyberlimbs can now be enhanced with up to 4 points of strength and/or agility
• hands and feet can now only be enhanced with a maximum of 1 point of armor
• partial limbs can now only be enhanced with a maximum of 2 points of armor

[Tarislar]

That's correct, though I'm not sure what do you mean by "similar to Muscle Augmentation cyberware" (technically "muscle augmentation" is bioware, and I'm not sure there is a limit for it equal to cyberlimbs' limit).

Sorry I typed "Augmentation" but what I was referring to was Muscle Replacement & Augmented Maximum in my head & it didn't come out clearly.

At GM's discretion. One can decide that lifting involves legs too.

Agreed, I was trying to come up with 2 different kinds of lifts which is why I later mentioned the car thing & moving it.

I would say those are two different test: for holding a rope and for holding a person. There's no sophisticated coordination of limbs.

Well my thought from this description was that the Str3 arm is going to be the "weak link" in this chain of rope>you>other IE, movie scene hanging from a Helo & that weaker arm will be the one that fails if the total weight was too much.



So the consensus seems to be that 1 Limb is useful for Pistols & such but you still need a decent base STR/AGi to get along for most tasks?

[Tarislar]

however....

with 3 armor in each for less than 1 essence (all during chargen). This is armor that you don't even need strength to support, so he would still be free to layer additional armor from run n gun on top of this.

he would have to pay 4.5 essence (or power points) to do the same with bone lacing and dermal plating (or mystic armor)....

This seems.......broken........ I like it 

This would make for a better option than the basic Left Arm in the example above ?

[Tarislar]

Cyberlimbs ignore augmented maximum

I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Are you saying AugMax doesn't apply because they are capped at Racial +3 for STR/AGI which is less than AugMax at Racial +4.

[Medicineman]

You can create a Char with a nat STR of 1 or 2 and cyberarms with STR6 and you can still add up to +3 (for a Capacity cost) to a max STR of 9.
The Normal augmented Max is your current Attr +4.
On the downside Cyberlimb STR is not calculated to you limits, its your natural STR

with an augmented Dance
Medicineman

[Tarislar]

The Normal augmented Max is your current Attr +4.

Doh, I see what your saying & now what I think he meant.
I was looking Racial Max but yes, Aug Max for above is 5 & yet Limbs could go to 6+3 completely ignoring the 5,   /smacks head.

[Xenon]

=)

[ZeConster]

I wasn't being flippant. I was pointing out that cyberlimbs are NOT the augmentations you get if you want better limits - their niche lies elsewhere. I strongly suggest you try to actually read people's posts before going off like that in the future.

Your reply came across as pretty flippant to me, so I can see why I_AM_ZHOUL!!! responded the way he did.
(...)
let's do something productive instead of slinging dirt

Everything I post comes across as flippant to you, so that doesn't mean anything. I simply posted that I feel cyberlimbs serve a different purpose than changing your physical limit, and then you and Zhoul decided to "sling dirt" - I, for one, don't see anything "productive" about you deciding to drag whatever grudge you seem to bear against me into discussions.

[martinchaen]

Everything I post comes across as flippant to you, so that doesn't mean anything. I simply posted that I feel cyberlimbs serve a different purpose than changing your physical limit, and then you and Zhoul decided to "sling dirt" - I, for one, don't see anything "productive" about you deciding to drag whatever grudge you seem to bear against me into discussions.

On the contrary, ZeConster; I think you make excellent points more often than not, but you've got to realize that what you intend to say and how it may be interpreted are not always the same things, particularly in text.

But consider the rest of my post, why don't you, instead of just focusing on two lines out of a very long post that took me quite some time to put together? Who's bearing a grudge now?

And with that, I'm out; I've made my contribution to I_AM_ZHOUL!!!'s suggestion.

[ZeConster]

Everything I post comes across as flippant to you, so that doesn't mean anything. I simply posted that I feel cyberlimbs serve a different purpose than changing your physical limit, and then you and Zhoul decided to "sling dirt" - I, for one, don't see anything "productive" about you deciding to drag whatever grudge you seem to bear against me into discussions.

On the contrary, ZeConster; I think you make excellent points more often than not, but you've got to realize that what you intend to say and how it may be interpreted are not always the same things, particularly in text.

I realize that just fine - in fact, I've had discussions about it with plenty of people who acted in an unintentionally abrasive manner. However, when I make an entirely reasonable remark without any hostile intent present and someone decides to make openly rude remarks towards me, then claims I started it when called on their behaviour, I don't think I'm at fault for someone getting too much in debate mode to take an objective look at my post.
Now, if I were to, say, chew someone out repeatedly because I think they're being hostile, even after they make a post politely explaining that was totally not the case; and then when they send me an angry PM about it, complain about them never giving me the benefit of the doubt; and then get angry and block them when they point out they did give me the benefit of the doubt but I did no such thing for them, then I might be at fault.

But consider the rest of my post, why don't you, instead of just focusing on two lines out of a very long post that took me quite some time to put together? Who's bearing a grudge now?

Considering I don't see any reason for cyberlimbs to alter limits, from mechanical nor balance purposes, I'm not sure what there is for me to consider: I didn't see any value for the discussion in adding a few paragraphs about how I disagree with your claim that it's balanced to boost your limits if you have multiple cyberlimbs (especially since you didn't talk about what happens if you take partial cyberlimbs, which is something crucial to consider in that case), so I refrained from making remarks about it. And of course, if I had included criticism of your actual arguments, that would have tainted the discussion by mixing it in with your beef with me.
So no, the one with a grudge is definitely you, since you apparently felt the need to imply that I was "focusing on two lines out of a very long post" in an attempt to discredit your post, even though those two lines were about an entirely seperate thing than the rest of your post.