[Lucean]

Ever occurred to you that maybe the whole point of cyberlimbs does not give limit in the first place is so you don't (ab)use them to dump stat strength

Yes it did occur to me... but seeing as how that means a retcon of the 25 years of the previous 4 editions, maybe a slight inattention to a very niche build could be just as likely (and if we're being honest and applying Occams Razor, the true answer.) Also, they have already nerfed cyberlimbs in comparison to the previous editions and I'm not talking about the cost which was applied pretty liberals to all ware. But the fact that they not only capped the enhancement rating at 3 instead of 7 making a cybertorso the dumbest and most useless piece of gear in the book but by stripping the BODY attribute out completely!!! So at no point am I suggesting anything that would effect things like the 2 feet/1 hand armor cheese or the Decker agi 9 gunarm... but only provide a reasonable boost to pretty niche characters. You know... so they could do a lot of the things that they have always been able to do... like all the stuff BESIDES combat... since gear overrides natural limits anyways

You mean like retconning the mages who stunballed entire enemy-groups with one cast into simsense-addicts, where this power is still at their disposal?
The rules have been written. If you don't like them, change them, but don't expect your houserules to affect anything more than a few tables.
You have the power, use it to change what you don't like, instead of arguing.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

What "Limits" were there in 4th..? Oh yeah.... none. What about about the 3 previous editions..? Nope not there either. I'm not even saying that they should be used to calculate the Limit now... just a straight limit bonus on the scale of 1=+0/ 2=+1/ 3=+2/ 4=+3 with similar restrictions as the Damage Condition Monitor bonus, meaning hands/feet don't count and Partial Limbs only count as half... that seems pretty fair to me, but don't say that cyberlimbs have ever functioned in any of the previous editions like they do now, they couldn't have cause there was NEVER a Limit on your hits before. Especially considering that you can only go up to natural maximum +3 as opposed to natural maximum +7 (with a cyber torso) in 4th edition... which is fine considering they nerfed all the cyber/bio in 5th by making everything non stacking with everything else. But please refrain from grossly inaccurate claims about what was in defense of what is... I'm fine with you having a RAW is RAI as your logic, just be aware that is the same logic that allows the 2 feet/1 hand +9 armor nonsense.... so I find the logic while being 100% accurate to be completely fallacious in the face of examples like that...

You do realize that not only did I not say there were limits in 4th, I in fact literally said 5th edition added limits, which makes your entire rant meritless, right? Now who's making "grossly inaccurate claims"?

That makes sense.... you didn't understand what you were saying, so my response was confusing again. By your statement about what cyberlimbs have done in the past is highly inaccurate, not only did they boost Strength and Agility but also Body... they did substantially more than they do now. 4 Cyberlimbs in 4th edition would give you a body attribute for tests, Body was the average of the 4 cyberlimbs body + natural body. That's not even close to what your describing.... getting 4 limbs at 9 gives a minimum body of 5 for tests for a human, while a body of 6 got it up to 8. Cybertorso would take that into the sky but is only feasible on a CyberZombie cause you needed those guaranteed IP. So, they didn't work at all in anyway you describe about them.... it cost 29,700 for a fully customized limb with stats of 9/9/8 and +2 armor (the best you could do at chargen, its 33,800 for a full 9/9/9 and +4 armor once you can go above 12 availability) in comparison to how they are currently. Your are correct that they are a very different beast then they have been previously but it sure wasn't in a power creep... they got nerfed at least as hard as everything else did, and in reality worse since they not only cost more like most of the rest of the ware (all of that ware price increase is greatly offset my the grade multipler being drastically reduced) they had a third attribute stripped out of their function.

So... at no point have I said that they should be used to calculate the Limit but merely add a bonus to be able to stay competitive in any physical activity thats not combat... their combat function is still highly functional. Cause who cares about dodging with that kind of armor soak..? Heck in mil-spec armor you could cold stroll through most of anything without even noticing....

You mean like retconning the mages who stunballed entire enemy-groups with one cast into simsense-addicts, where this power is still at their disposal?
The rules have been written. If you don't like them, change them, but don't expect your houserules to affect anything more than a few tables.
You have the power, use it to change what you don't like, instead of arguing.

I'll be honest... I'm kinda confused on what you are implying and what's the context. I think that you are talking about Foci Addiction..? Which was in 4th but was merely clarified since the crunchy part wasn't nearly as clear as in 5th. But I could be wrong... and I think it is unique (at least I can't think of another game that solves it in the same manner) in how 5th edition has dealt with Magic being way more powerful than other things. It's just a fact that goes all the way back to the very beginning of RPGs that Magic is just better especially as characters get higher level.  5th edition solved it by just making everything lethal as f*ck!!! Armor is about the same in overall (easier for low bodied characters to have a decent armor score, while making armor stacking not as easy) but weapons do way more damage. So, the removal of Body from cyberlimbs is a fair balance to the armor soak and damage box it receives. But I fail to see how a mage who is casting Stunball is treated as a Simsense Addict. Now a mage using a Force 6 Power Focus casting Stunball is... and big whoop-dee-do!!!!!! That's the least important roll you'll make all night, Willpower+Logic and need 2 hits to pass.... TERRIFYING!!!!! You might glitch (pretty unlikely) that roll but baby jesus himself would need to come down from heaven to make a magician fail it. I come on, the smallest that die pool is gonna be is 8-9 and thats for a shaman, a mage is gonna have higher since it's his drain attribute. See... why I'm confused...? The only thing that makes sense that you could be referring to is of very little importance, since the threshold is always 2 even the amount of Force of Active Foci is gonna effect is how often you gotta make an easy roll (that if worst came to worst, would maybe eat up one edge point every once in a while when you're making the test every single week.) And how is that relevant to how cyberlimbs have been nerfed for outside combat uses...?

[ZeConster]

That makes sense.... you didn't understand what you were saying, so my response was confusing again.

Seriously, dude, what's with all the insults? You go off on a rant based on a total misunderstanding of my post, and when I point it out, you tell me that I don't understand my own words? There is nothing confusing about you deciding that since I disagree with you, you're allowed to act like an asshole.

Even the "different beast" remark is a misunderstanding on your end: I mean that cyberlimbs are different beasts from other augmentations (because they don't directly make your own body stronger: those things you list are indirect effects based on part of your 'body' being cyberlimbs instead), not that they're different beasts in 5th compared to 4th.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Aha... I found it. You keep using this word... "different." There has never been a difference, there's been different avenues to get to the same result but never to get to two separate results.  It's the exact same as claiming that a Throughbred horse is a different beast from a Quarter Horse. Yes, one is a "Hot Blood" and the other a "Warm Blood" but they are still both horses. The mechanical difference between them is non existent, since they are in fact the same animal though their appearance has differences. So... does that mean that the Headware ultrasound sensor which has zero differences between the sensor single/array which has twice the capacity and 12x the cost (or you can get 5 more sensors for an extra 4 capacity at 1/6 the cost) of one implanted in a cyberlimb is working as intended...? All im saying is that the new system is very cool and seems very balanced... but there are a few glaring errors that got missed. I think how cyberlimbs are related to movement and limits is one of those.

[Michael Chandra]

I see zero excuses for the insults and deliberate misrepresentations of your posts, bro, so just let him be. He's just going to keep twisting your posts and presenting his posts in a different way every time he's correctly called out on them. Just put him on your ignore list like I did.

[Lucean]

You mean like retconning the mages who stunballed entire enemy-groups with one cast into simsense-addicts, where this power is still at their disposal?
The rules have been written. If you don't like them, change them, but don't expect your houserules to affect anything more than a few tables.
You have the power, use it to change what you don't like, instead of arguing.

I'll be honest... I'm kinda confused on what you are implying and what's the context. I think that you are talking about Foci Addiction..? Which was in 4th but was merely clarified since the crunchy part wasn't nearly as clear as in 5th. But I could be wrong... and I think it is unique (at least I can't think of another game that solves it in the same manner) in how 5th edition has dealt with Magic being way more powerful than other things. It's just a fact that goes all the way back to the very beginning of RPGs that Magic is just better especially as characters get higher level.  5th edition solved it by just making everything lethal as f*ck!!! Armor is about the same in overall (easier for low bodied characters to have a decent armor score, while making armor stacking not as easy) but weapons do way more damage. So, the removal of Body from cyberlimbs is a fair balance to the armor soak and damage box it receives. But I fail to see how a mage who is casting Stunball is treated as a Simsense Addict. Now a mage using a Force 6 Power Focus casting Stunball is... and big whoop-dee-do!!!!!! That's the least important roll you'll make all night, Willpower+Logic and need 2 hits to pass.... TERRIFYING!!!!! You might glitch (pretty unlikely) that roll but baby jesus himself would need to come down from heaven to make a magician fail it. I come on, the smallest that die pool is gonna be is 8-9 and thats for a shaman, a mage is gonna have higher since it's his drain attribute. See... why I'm confused...? The only thing that makes sense that you could be referring to is of very little importance, since the threshold is always 2 even the amount of Force of Active Foci is gonna effect is how often you gotta make an easy roll (that if worst came to worst, would maybe eat up one edge point every once in a while when you're making the test every single week.) And how is that relevant to how cyberlimbs have been nerfed for outside combat uses...?

I'll forgive you. I referred to the power of a F10-12 Stunball, which could easily take out hordes of enemies. And since this is no longer possible, I assumed that mages who revelled in that power would put themselves into Simsense, where they can do this all the time again and again.
But I apologize, it seems as if that analogy was too complex to grasp while trying to be as antagonizing as you could be.

[Xenon]

was pages since something productive came out of this thread. not tracking anymore.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

How is it a misrepresentation when there has never been a mechanical difference in how one got to the die roll to say "there has never been a mechanical difference in how one got to the die roll." Now if he was claiming that there was SUPPOSED to be a difference over the 4 editions that spans a quarter of a century, then fine. But that's not the logical underpinnings of the statements. It has all been that it has always been different when in fact it never was. I am impolite by stating it bluntly but it isn't an insult. When you say they are and have been different when in fact they have never been different, that untrue. If you believe in something that is untrue, that is not enough to make it true. The only thing that makes them different is Physical Limit (besides the before mentioned nerfs to the cyberlimb functions) now than ever before. That is generally only an out of combat effect, since their in combat function is almost entirely undiminished in scale when you place it within the context of all the changes to everything. All it does is make a Physical combat god out of them (I mean what soldier who is serving in active front line combat wouldn't want to be able to walk through an anti personnel weaponry like it didn't exist, and take high powered anti armor weaponry to even notice..?) So, if the point is that it's possible to have a character thats immune to pretty much every except Anti-Vehicle Missles (plus some other Sniper rifles and Cannons with the same set up) using doing Stun and a Panther XXL using APDS rounds on a called shot to the Vitals with maximum net hits possible to do physical damage (and even that's prevented with Orthoskin 1 to keep it at Stun) add a Pain Editor to that and you have to run out of ammo before you cant kill them faster than they can hurt you.

Of course that gear setup is wildly inappropriate to anything besides an active war zone and has nothing to do what normal shadowrunning involves... but that would be a valid point, that since it is POSSIBLE in a highly inappropriate context (meaning Knight Errant or whoever does throw enough bodies at you to run you out of ammo and bring you down) than they should be gimped in all roles besides combat. That could be a reasonable counter...

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

You mean like retconning the mages who stunballed entire enemy-groups with one cast into simsense-addicts, where this power is still at their disposal?
The rules have been written. If you don't like them, change them, but don't expect your houserules to affect anything more than a few tables.
You have the power, use it to change what you don't like, instead of arguing.

I'll be honest... I'm kinda confused on what you are implying and what's the context. I think that you are talking about Foci Addiction..? Which was in 4th but was merely clarified since the crunchy part wasn't nearly as clear as in 5th. But I could be wrong... and I think it is unique (at least I can't think of another game that solves it in the same manner) in how 5th edition has dealt with Magic being way more powerful than other things. It's just a fact that goes all the way back to the very beginning of RPGs that Magic is just better especially as characters get higher level.  5th edition solved it by just making everything lethal as f*ck!!! Armor is about the same in overall (easier for low bodied characters to have a decent armor score, while making armor stacking not as easy) but weapons do way more damage. So, the removal of Body from cyberlimbs is a fair balance to the armor soak and damage box it receives. But I fail to see how a mage who is casting Stunball is treated as a Simsense Addict. Now a mage using a Force 6 Power Focus casting Stunball is... and big whoop-dee-do!!!!!! That's the least important roll you'll make all night, Willpower+Logic and need 2 hits to pass.... TERRIFYING!!!!! You might glitch (pretty unlikely) that roll but baby jesus himself would need to come down from heaven to make a magician fail it. I come on, the smallest that die pool is gonna be is 8-9 and thats for a shaman, a mage is gonna have higher since it's his drain attribute. See... why I'm confused...? The only thing that makes sense that you could be referring to is of very little importance, since the threshold is always 2 even the amount of Force of Active Foci is gonna effect is how often you gotta make an easy roll (that if worst came to worst, would maybe eat up one edge point every once in a while when you're making the test every single week.) And how is that relevant to how cyberlimbs have been nerfed for outside combat uses...?

I'll forgive you. I referred to the power of a F10-12 Stunball, which could easily take out hordes of enemies. And since this is no longer possible, I assumed that mages who revelled in that power would put themselves into Simsense, where they can do this all the time again and again.
But I apologize, it seems as if that analogy was too complex to grasp while trying to be as antagonizing as you could be.

Thank you... a Force 10-12 Stunball is still pretty nasty since anything over 3 hits can be applied to damage while still having -12AP on the damage resistance test. It's not as simple but still entirely possible if the mage was that hard up to relive the "glory days." It was the Addict word that threw me off since they would rarely become an addict... they'd just be users just like on their Foci with little to no repercussions for it.

[Namikaze]

was pages since something productive came out of this thread. not tracking anymore.

Ditto.  It's become a bickering flamewar.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Well... I knew he could be a Combat God, but I got to figuring just how obnoxious he could get... I was able to get it up to 47 armor total with a body of 8(11). So a human with the right gear, ware, and drugs  (availability is the only thing stopping this at CharGen not cost) is a base Damage Resistance test of 58 Dice + 12 automatic successes. if nothing else THANK YOU for the sheer amount of amusement I've gotten out of thinking of the GM Fiat it would take to hurt this guy... either somebody holding a laser designator for a Cruise Missile from a Navy ship or one of those flying crowbars Ares put in orbit were the best I could think of... though the thought of a Tank trying to shoot a person with its main gun is also funny to picture...

Best I could do was 45 on Damage/AP using a Ares Thunderstuck Guass Rifle(the Barret Model 122 came in second at 41 Damage/AP) with APDS, Bullseye Double Tap on a Called Shot to the Vitals while getting max net hits of 8 using a smartlink.... which does 0 Stun Damage (it was .33 damage but i rounded down not up... was that the correct call?) on average to him.... so, 1 stun every 3 turns take 141 perfect complex actions to fill his Physical Damage Condition Monitor and make him start to die... but still not dead yet

(An elven adept could get it up to .66 Stun on average with a Die pool of 36 for the cost of 7.75PP, exceptional Attribute/Kamikaze/Attribute Boost(4) agility 8(13), Aptitude Cannon 13(20) (+2 Gauss Rifle), Smartlink +1... that way could easily max net hit of 8(9) accuracy and drop him in 72 Complex Actions, but would need to dump accumulated recoil...)

Piece... I'm out!!!!

P.S. Can anyone do better on a human..?
Stats
Heavy Milspec Armor + Helmet 23 Armor(hardened)
Body 8 (Expectional Attribute- Body/Kamikaze)
Orthoskin +3 Armor
Titanium Bone Lacing +3 Armor +3 body
Cyberlimbs x4 for +12 Armor (technically by RAW which is the main point we've been discussing, you could use hands and feet and then everything can be Standard grade without the need to go beta/delta)
Cybertorso/skull +6 Armor
Pain Editor

Personally, I think Magic Resistance 4 with Willpower 5(7) from a speedball of Cram/Nitro (i think is also better use than Kamikaze) would be a better use of Qualities that Exceptional Attribute Body but that wasn't the Gimmick....

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Ok... really done now since I figured the max damage and how long it takes to drop him...

[ZeConster]

if nothing else THANK YOU for the sheer amount of amusement I've gotten out of thinking of the GM Fiat it would take to hurt this guy... either somebody holding a laser designator for a Cruise Missile from a Navy ship or one of those flying crowbars Ares put in orbit were the best I could think of... though the thought of a Tank trying to shoot a person with its main gun is also funny to picture...

Wouldn't a bunch of F6 Spirits of Man with Manabolt do the trick, though? Even with a Pain Editor, 12 dice versus Willpower (which is harder to boost than Body) means the Stun --> Physical overflow will start ticking pretty quickly. With 5 Willpower versus 12 spellcasting dice and a Force of 6, you'd have ~2.34 damage on average before the Stun Track fills, and ~0.95 Stun-->Physical damage on average after. Meanwhile, the spirits would take an average of 0.24 Stun Drain per spell cast.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

if nothing else THANK YOU for the sheer amount of amusement I've gotten out of thinking of the GM Fiat it would take to hurt this guy... either somebody holding a laser designator for a Cruise Missile from a Navy ship or one of those flying crowbars Ares put in orbit were the best I could think of... though the thought of a Tank trying to shoot a person with its main gun is also funny to picture...

Wouldn't a bunch of F6 Spirits of Man with Manabolt do the trick, though? Even with a Pain Editor, 12 dice versus Willpower (which is harder to boost than Body) means the Stun --> Physical overflow will start ticking pretty quickly. With 5 Willpower versus 12 spellcasting dice and a Force of 6, you'd have ~2.34 damage on average before the Stun Track fills, and ~0.95 Stun-->Physical damage on average after. Meanwhile, the spirits would take an average of 0.24 Stun Drain per spell cast.

Combat God... not Omnipotent God, shit a Decker/Technomancer would cut through him like nothing if he hacked the Daisy Chain of Commlinks without setting off DemiGods (hacking commlinks counts for hits, right..?) and killed the cyberlimbs but even then... as I said, Willpower 5(7) + Magic Resistance (4) is a better build since that one is a pure Gimmick one... so 11 Die against 12 really slows that down, and what do you think he's going to be doing during that time...? Twiddling Winks..? I'm guessing that he has a Thunderstuck Guass or at least a Panther XXL... those Spirits really need to be a higher Force and Overcast to get the most out of Hardened Armor... but like said, he's not a Matrix God or an Astral God... he's a Combat God

[JimmyCrisis]

Easy houserule:  if you have a cybertorso, you can use the average of your limb strength (cyber and natural) for calculating [physical].  Now maybe the cybertorso is worth purchasing?