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Custom Designing Firearms

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Carpool

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« on: <07-23-14/1828:55> »
Given the fact that desktop manufacturing and 3d printing is a reality in the Shadowrun universe, what do you think the costs, processes and limitations should be fr characters to custom design and manufacture weapons?

MijRai

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« Reply #1 on: <07-23-14/1841:30> »
Well, are you talking a lead-spitter, or a functional, practical modern weapon?

Because practically anyone could make the first with a little time.  If you want a high-quality, accurate, reliable weapon, however...  You'd need knowledge on ballistics, modern materials (for the stress it can handle), basic mechanics (various mechanisms), etc.  Probably anywhere from 3 on up in the relevant Academic and Professional skills would give you the knowledge, in my estimation. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Carpool

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« Reply #2 on: <07-23-14/2049:16> »
The latter is what i'm lookign for.

Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: <07-23-14/2321:59> »
Honestly?

For a host of reasons, I wouldn't allow it.

To keep it short, sweet and to the point:

Game balance gets thrown out of wack once you start allowing players to custom build something. The costs of the materials needed would be in the thousands (if not hundreds of thousands)
To make a completely unique,  one of a kind item.....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Marcus

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« Reply #4 on: <07-23-14/2347:49> »
No. Custom Firearms always end poorly for game balance.
Besides every loves the half dozen gun books. They are some of the most fun material. 
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #5 on: <07-24-14/0055:43> »
Design your firearm.  Me, I like the 3rd edition rules for doing so.  Then give your design to the GM.  Allow the GM to decide whether this is a design a corporation would have come up with, and if so, perhaps he might apply some of the mass production discounts suggested in one-or-another of the Shadowrun Supplemental editions - somewhere in the teens, as I recall.  Remembering, of course, that if he does so, the opposition may well have the weapon as well.

Once that's done, however, the GM can decide a) whether you'll get the gun at all, b) how tough it's going to be to find an armorer skilled enough to fit all that crap into your tiny little gun, and c) how much he's going to charge.  Expect b) to be pretty high, and expect c) to be pretty damn high too.  If you're building a pistol with advanced this and enhanced that and invisible the other along with caseless those and superhyperdensiplast these, expect to pay somewhere around ten times what you'd pay for a standard handgun.

And expect to automatically get the 'Distinctive Style' negative quality without any corresponding advantage.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #6 on: <07-24-14/0111:24> »
As much as I am loathe to give your players any ideas on making their own weapons, I'd allow it to happen on a small scale.  Basically, I'd give the player a couple of options and neither is what they're looking for, I'm sure of it.

First one is to make a gun that will glitch on 1s and 2s - double the liklihood of having a problem with it, because it's using cheap materials like those produced with a desktop 3D printer.  Additionally, I'd argue that on a glitch the gun breaks.  For good.  AND it only has a 2 shot capacity (use the stats of the Walter Palm Pistol).

Second option is to get a gunsmith to manufacture a custom gun.  There are gunsmiths all over the place that will do this for a price - but they usually retain the rights to produce more of that gun if they so desire.  AND these are always based on existing models.  So he could take an Ares Predator IV and get some custom work done to it to improve it's cycle rate, suddenly making it capable of burst fire.  Or extend the barrel to make it have more range.  There's a couple of things that you could do to existing guns to tweak them, but Run & Gun doesn't really cover that material as well as it was covered in Arsenal.

Let's assume you allowed the player to make a brand new weapon, from design to completion.  Make the player pass the knowledge skill checks (remember that active skills act as knowledge skills now).  Make the player seek out a manufacturer that is willing to do this contract work.  Make the manufacturer take the design as part of the payment - note the word "part" as this will not be cheap under any circumstances.  Fill the weapon with tracking RFID tags built into the material of the weapon, on the basis that the manufacturer is just covering his own butt for liability.  And finally, if you're going to make a custom weapon, make it balanced with the existing weapons.  If they're going to make a pistol, make it balanced with the other pistols.  This should not be a "better" gun so much as one that fits his/her specific needs.  If they want a pistol that does Ruger Super Warhawk damage, with an Ares Predator magazine, and a base Accuracy of 7...  no.  That's way out of balance.  The thing is, most of the variety that one would want is covered by the stats of an existing weapon.  If they want to take those stats, and just have it be a "snowflake" gun (that is, one of a kind) then apply the Custom Look bonus from 4th edition.  It gives a bonus to social tests involving the weapon, but also makes it very distinctive.

With all this reference to Arsenal, it's probably worth mentioning that Arsenal covers this topic to some extent.  Basically they give some basic rules for modifying existing weapons pretty heavily, and treat desktop forges as a bonus to the quality of tools used.  Additionally, getting the feedstock is tough - Availability of 10R, and higher for feedstock that isn't riddled with RFID trackers.

So that's the long version.  Short version?  Don't let it happen unless the player really wants it to happen and is willing to pay the price.  Ultimately, it's just not worth it to most people.
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Marcus

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« Reply #7 on: <07-24-14/0146:51> »
The purest will pack predators. Classics never die.

The Handcannon crew will thrust their turgid Super Warhawks into their pants, and strut down the street, leaving everyone in wonder how their jean possible stand up.

The Maxxers, will carry the custom concealed quick draw, silenced, caseless, recoil over compensated Savalette's locked and cocked, with extended clip loaded out with ADPS explosive capsule rounds, which themselves are packed with DMSO/NARCOJET/TRUTH Serum, Which leaves their victims out cold. but also has them giving up their deepest darkest secrets at the same time! Don't ask how it works, they might just tell you!

There's the fourth option, those special snowflakes who just can't commit, these poor souls will agonize for days over weapon type, over brand name, over burst vs semi, over com-link or not to com-link, over if the forum poster linked the gun or not. in the end they will eventually settle on one the 4 other viable hand guns, currently stated out.

Now that we have gotten rid of that D@mn Fubuki, this is how its been for many great editions of this game and I just don't see any good reason to have it change.

 (Yeah I'm sorry for writing this but once I started it was too funny to stop.)
 
« Last Edit: <07-24-14/0152:40> by Marcus »
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #8 on: <07-24-14/1146:11> »
I'd let them do it, on the following grounds.

That they take a profile already listed in either the Core Book or Run and Gun. They may select a number of features at no penalty, however the more you try and add on, the more I can play with the design, from making it F from R, to decreasing the recoil compensation etc.

I'd probably tie that to the skill of the person designing it, it's not just a skill in shooting, but in ballistics, materials, understanding the physics behind it.

I might be encouraged to give them a bonus if they can sketch it, or point me towards a real life design they like the look of.

The rest of it, it can quickly become each team member has their own hand cannon of doom and what do I get to create to deal with it. I don't want that to happen. I'd rather a team of people who use the gear they have, adapt what they don't and play it smart, not violent.
When in doubt, C4.

adzling

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« Reply #9 on: <07-28-14/0045:58> »
sometimes you just gotta strut

Marcus

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« Reply #10 on: <07-28-14/0113:36> »
sometimes you just gotta strut

Well I guess that's probably true,
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JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #11 on: <07-28-14/0205:58> »
SR3 has the Cannon Companion, which detailed custom weapons pretty well.

Anyone with a real engineering degree could design a firearm on their own time, but product testing is the prohibitively expensive part.  I had the idea to revamp those rules to 5th, with built-in gremlins flaws that need to be bought off though design choices or extended tests.

Houserule something, and I'd be interested in whatever you come up with.

eviltikiman

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« Reply #12 on: <07-28-14/1848:02> »
Im having this EXACT problem right now with one of my players who is making a new character that was intended as a dual wielding Orcish Max Payne . They wanted to make a heavy pistol that had acc5,dv10,-3ap,SA,rc0,8clip,aval12f,1350nuyen"- further rules being it required a str of 4+ to use, had a +4 to conceal, their ultimate reasoning that pistols have no "end game" value. They also believed that Shotguns and burst fire were worthless. As I have talked them down from the pistol, they have basically remade their  previous character who used a LMG (Krime wave since they see it as king of LMG, and is another thing they want to dual wield).

Id love to have a guide to creating firearms and such because 1.I would love to make a weird gun, and 2.because they are enthusiastic about the game.

Namikaze

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« Reply #13 on: <07-28-14/1914:13> »
Im having this EXACT problem right now with one of my players who is making a new character that was intended as a dual wielding Orcish Max Payne . They wanted to make a heavy pistol that had acc5,dv10,-3ap,SA,rc0,8clip,aval12f,1350nuyen"- further rules being it required a str of 4+ to use, had a +4 to conceal, their ultimate reasoning that pistols have no "end game" value. They also believed that Shotguns and burst fire were worthless. As I have talked them down from the pistol, they have basically remade their  previous character who used a LMG (Krime wave since they see it as king of LMG, and is another thing they want to dual wield).

Id love to have a guide to creating firearms and such because 1.I would love to make a weird gun, and 2.because they are enthusiastic about the game.

I think letting your player dual-wield LMGs is asking for trouble.  Double his uncompensated recoil for BOTH weapons, and it will stack with both weapons.  He's smarter to take a single LMG and kit it with APDS ammo and a bunch of doodads.
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eviltikiman

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« Reply #14 on: <07-28-14/2027:18> »
Their argument for the dual LMGs was in regards to wanting to use two gyro mounts to reduce the recoil by 6 for both on top of their near maxed strength. The only way I can imagine doing it Without gyro mounts would be to have 2 maxed out cyber arms and use the Redline rule from 4e that could double the STR at the cost of damage.
 If you use a gyro mount, do you still need 2 hands?