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Helmets and Masks

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elrikthebastard

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« on: <08-04-14/1636:38> »
Afternoon!

SR5

Helmets and Face Masks. They add up on encumbrance. But in the real world they tend to go hand in hand... Any advice?


MijRai

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« Reply #1 on: <08-04-14/1747:33> »
Eh, in my experience, a helmet is far more inconvenient than body armor.  I could wear a flak with SAPIs all day, but those few extra ungainly pounds on my head were a pain in the neck (figuratively and literally).  Even with good straps, they're a pain.  And those masks can interfere with breathing if you're pushing yourself (never had to do a mask run, thankfully enough). 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

elrikthebastard

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« Reply #2 on: <08-04-14/1801:28> »
Thanks MijRai,

I've not seen rules for the inconvenience of the helmet or face mask in the game. I will say that the face mask I wore kept my face from being turned blue.

You see the Military or Security forces wearing Helmets and face masks, and then Shadowrun adds weird rules to them...

Triskavanski

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« Reply #3 on: <08-04-14/1931:30> »
Mostly the encumbrance is a catchall for the inconvenience of wearing them.

You however don't see many soliders running around with Balli masks, but tend to have more gas masks on. And gas masks don't add encumbrance. 
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

elrikthebastard

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« Reply #4 on: <08-04-14/2049:25> »
Thanks Triskavanski

The news has been showing military groups using it more and more. I doubt a long ranging patrol wants to wear face mask, but you get into the tight and dirty you want to keep your face and head. I also think that in 2075, the construction of the Ballistic Mask as we know it has changed. Better materials, install of sensors, you can put a respirator into one, vision enhancements, 180 visual range, limitless in my mind. How do you keep that pretty face when the fight gets close and nasty, the rolls don't always go your way.

I was thinking more along the line of this,
http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Revision_Military_Batlskin_Modular_Head_Protection_System_MHPS_Ballsitic_Visor_and_Mandible_Guard_Maxillofacial_Protection_System_21.jpg


Reaver

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« Reply #5 on: <08-04-14/2258:45> »
Its also more of a "balance" issue then real life.

Its a game of choices... for headware it's the choice of more armor? Or better vision? Or gas protection?

All are good choices, but when you start to allow everything, elements that matter become mute.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

elrikthebastard

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« Reply #6 on: <08-04-14/2330:06> »
Thanks Reaver

I realize there are rules for a reason. I just feel that sometimes the game is trying to micromanage us. These helms and face gear are not that heavy, and if you are trained with them they can be worn with ease. To top is all of, with AR you can dominate the situation cleanly and clearly. I am not enjoying this game as much as I had hoped.

Thank you everyone.

Ishmell

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« Reply #7 on: <08-15-14/1244:55> »
Thanks Reaver

I realize there are rules for a reason. I just feel that sometimes the game is trying to micromanage us. These helms and face gear are not that heavy, and if you are trained with them they can be worn with ease. To top is all of, with AR you can dominate the situation cleanly and clearly. I am not enjoying this game as much as I had hoped.

Thank you everyone.

Everyone's a critic....
Majored in mechanics at law school.

firebug

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« Reply #8 on: <08-15-14/1411:10> »
If by encumbrance you mean the "bonuses to armor beyond your STR begin to impose penalties" then that is 100% game balance.  Realism has to take a back seat to making the game playable--  There's big discussions on this in the forum if you disagree.  It's already based around an abstraction anyways.  "+2 armor" is meaningless in real life.

If you're talking about actual "carrying capacity" type encumbrance...  That almost never comes up, and is totally ignorable if the GM thinks you're doing a reasonable thing.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Glyph

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« Reply #9 on: <08-16-14/0519:02> »
You suffer a penalty for every two full points of armor over Strength.  Even someone with a Strength of 1 can wear a helmet without penalty.  I don't have the stats for a ballistic mask, but assuming it also gives +2, it would be three points over a Strength of 1.  So even someone with a Strength of 1 or 2 would only suffer a -1 penalty (still enough to make wearing both not worth it), and someone with a Strength of 3 would not suffer any penalties at all.  So the encumbrance penalties for armor aren't that bad.

elrikthebastard

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« Reply #10 on: <08-16-14/1508:49> »
@Ishmell
Yes. When I spend money on something and have been playing off and on for 20 years, I feel a certain entitlement. =-)
I don't feel so entitles to run over to facebook and puke over their board. That is just a AHole thing to do.

Thanks Glyph and Firebug.

I think I will ignore the encumbrance for the moment. Exhaustion not with standing.

I just like to ask, sometimes people come up with better, more elegant ideas then I do. Only one way to learn.

Thanks again everyone!





martinchaen

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« Reply #11 on: <08-16-14/1653:47> »
elrikthebastard
Just as a practical, real-world comparison exercise, try the following: put on a motorcycle helmet and wear it for a whole day. Alternatively, do a 100m dash, or a 1mile run while wearing it.

The next day, strap on a set of football pads and put on the helmet again, and finally grab a ballistic shield (or, if you don't have one, a nice big piece of ply-wood or similar), and repeat the exercises above.

It's not that these items weigh particularly much, it's the way in which they affect you. Trying to do gymnastics with a motorcycle helmet or while wearing football pads is another great example of how such items limit your mobility.

Just be aware that allowing + armor items without encumbrance can lead to some pretty significant AV increases.

elrikthebastard

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« Reply #12 on: <08-16-14/2134:10> »
Thanks Martinchaen,

Yea, I'm not an idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lov4qdSdaI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg - this made me laugh
http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/05/17/knights-armor-was-much-much-lighter-than-you-think/ - used this for a game I was running.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2456852/Iron-Man-army-US-military-developing-armor-allows-special-ops-commandos-walk-stream-bullets-dark-heal-wounds-monitor-vital-signs.html - WHOOT MilSpec!
http://dkxarmor.com/#page-about-dkx-solutions - super light, light the future of armour or something.
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/06/17/dkx-armor-plates/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BlueSheepdog+%28BlueSheepdog+-+Police+Training+and+Officer+Safety%29 - testing the protective value of this armour.
http://uwm.tv/ - this is pretty interesting, and the build is based upon the work of a local guy to my home town.

The mix of links goes beyond my original topic, but some of it is pretty cool.

Our characters, at least I hope, are in significantly better shape then me. In my case, that is not hard.

Military Helmets average 12 pounds.
Flight Helmets are 19 Pounds
My Helm is 14 pounds

I have warn a helm for days on end. I have fought in a helm days on end. With full armour. At the time my kit weighed 60 odd pounds before the helm. That included cross country running, woods battles, and I wear glasses.

I do not dispute that players in an abundance of armour will have problems. Never said I was going to make it easy or simple for them. Just that I had issue with the Encumbrance of the game rules. If no one else does then that is fine. I am a big old man, and I can take my toys and go and play in my own sand box.

Comparing the gear and tech from  2014 to 2075 is silly.  Doesn't mean we will get to wear that super cool helm as we do their Olympic routine for a good score from the Russian Judge. I would love to see that, the balance all over the place.

I had worked out a way to buy lesser armoured helms. +1 instead of +2. Dropped the price by 50 yen.  One less slot.

Thanks

E
 





martinchaen

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« Reply #13 on: <08-16-14/2245:16> »
Yea, I'm not an idiot.
Never said you were, just provided a caution.

I'd also like to point out that comparing real-world tech to Shadowrun tech is perfectly viable in many cases. Real world calibers, for instance, compare very favourably to the damage values of the various Shadowrun rifles and machine gun equivalents, and a motorcycle helmet can be expected to still do what a motorcycle helmet of today does, with the possible exception of having HUDs with all kinds of technogadgets (though those are coming, slowly but surely).

As for characters being in better shape than what you are; again, that's an easy comparison to make. Take the scale presented in the book, where STR 1 through 6 represents generally weak through world-class athlete level strength. Where do you fit on the scale? A STR 1 character can easily wear a helmet all day every day and not even be affected by it (takes AV +3 to affect a STR character as per the core rules). To put that into perspective, a STR 1 character can wear Full Body Armor with helmet (+2 AV) with no penalty. It's only when he straps on Mil-Spec armor or similar (where the helmet is +3 AV) that he suffers a very minimal penalty of -1. If he additionally tries to wield a shield and straps on other multiple layers (+3 from PPP kit, for instance, and a riot shield), however, then the penalties start piling up (+3 +6 + 3 for a total of +12, for a total negative AGI and REA modifier of (1+2=3+2=5+2=7+2=9+2=11) 5). Again, it's not that all this stuff is heavy to my mind, it's that if you're not a particularly strong character it'll slow you down. This is represented by the reduction applying to your AGI and REA as opposed to your STR.

I'd also like to, again, point out that I don't necessarily think weight is a good representation of what encumbrance is supposed to represent, it's how much the item affects your movement ability. A big old riot shield, for instance, conveying a +6 AV, would severely restrict the abilities of a STR 1 character, unlike even the weakest Troll (who in real world terms would be comparable to some of the strongest athletes in the world). As someone who races motorcycles I'm intimately (unfortunately) aware of how much a full-face helmet limits your field of view as well as the mobility of your neck, both on the bike and off.

Ultimately, of course it's up to you what to do in your game; again, I never implied otherwise. I just wanted to make sure you'd considered the implications of such a choice, as characters can easily layer on 5+ AV (7+ if you allow Ballistic Masks to be used with Helmets), which means less damage is dealt in combat, and more damage is converted to Stun damage which in turn has it's own ripple effects.

Cheers,
Martin
« Last Edit: <08-16-14/2254:45> by martinchaen »

elrikthebastard

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« Reply #14 on: <08-17-14/0157:15> »
Thanks again Martin.

The tone struck me. Sorry if I over reacted.

The riot shield I have no issue with. Those things are bloody heavy.

I know more about snowmobile helmets... close enough, and yes, your constantly turning your head, looking up and down. And your field is this window.

Maybe I need to change gears here. Heavy duty glasses with a lower protective part.


My players want something like this.
http://www.kiestu.com/videopage/on/njDnbT_t9gg.html
Can you say Video Gamish?
http://www.ea.com/army-of-two-devils-cartel

I want something more in line with this. Only bullet proof.
http://www.365airsoftshop.com/metal-half-face-mask-bk-p-75.html