[Namikaze]

The dice bonuses to Initiative are limited to 5d6, flat-out.  That's why I said that they're a different sort of thing.

Let's give some examples:

Runner Ace has 3s in all his stats.  Since we're only worrying about Reaction, Intuition, and Initiative I'll only use those stats in these examples.  His stats are:

Reaction 3
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 + 1d6

Ace decides to get some Wired Reflexes installed, at rating 3.

His new stats are:

Reaction 3 (6)
Intuition 3
Initiative 3 (9) + 1d6 (4d6)

Now, Ace decides he's going to take some Kamikaze as well (he's feeling particularly suicidal).  Now Ace's stats look like this:

Reaction 3 (6)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (9) + 1d6 (5d6)

Why didn't he get the extra d6 from Kamikaze?  Because he cannot go higher than 5d6.

Once he's down from the Kamikaze, he decides to get Reaction Enhancers installed at rating 3.  What are his stats now?

Reaction 3 (6/9)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (9/12) + 1d6 (4d6)

Most of the time, he's going to be running around without the bonuses of Reaction Enhancers.  But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack.  If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.


Let's look at a different scenario entirely, the one that was presented by the OP.

Runner Bob is a physical adept with the Improved Reflexes power at rank 2.  Let's say his stats look like this:

Reaction 3 (5)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 ( + 1d6 (3d6)

Now Bob decides to get a Suprathyroid Gland installed.  Once the gland is installed, he gets a +1 to Agility, Body, Reaction, and Strength.  This means his stats now look like this:

Reaction 3 (6)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (9) + 1d6 (3d6)


Let's try with just magical enhancements.

Runner Cleo has 3s in all stats.  Cleo decides to cast Increase Reflexes on herself.  She gets 4 hits, which gives her 4 extra Initiative and 2d6 extra Initiative Dice.  Her stats now look like this:

Reaction 3
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (10) + 1d6 (3d6)

The next turn, Cleo casts Increase Reaction on herself, getting 4 hits in the process.  This means her stats now look like this:

Reaction 3 (7)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (14) + 1d6 (3d6)

The turn following, Cleo casts Increase Intuition and gets 6 hits.  She only gets to keep 4 of those hits, because otherwise she's over her augmented maximum.  Now her stats look like this:

Reaction 3 (7)
Intuition 3 (7)
Initiative 6 (18) + 1d6 (3d6)


Are you starting to see what I mean, and how the wording works?

[reyjinn]

But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack.  If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.

Doesn't the +4 augmented attribute limit still apply? So he would be running on reaction 7?

[ZeConster]

But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack.  If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.

Doesn't the +4 augmented attribute limit still apply? So he would be running on reaction 7?

Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes state that if they're both in wireless mode, the combined bonus to Reaction can exceed the usual augmentation limit of +4.

[reyjinn]

But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack.  If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.

Doesn't the +4 augmented attribute limit still apply? So he would be running on reaction 7?

Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes state that if they're both in wireless mode, the combined bonus to Reaction can exceed the usual augmentation limit of +4.

Ahh, ok. Thank you for the clarification. I missed that.

[Xenon]

I see what you mean.

You might very well be right. We might both be wrong. Book seem to be ambiguous enough to read it in more than one way (or else this thread would not be several pages long).


This is how I read it:

If you get a higher initiative with an enhancement than you did without;  then it count as an increase to initiative. And if it also is technological or magical in nature then it will not stack with improved reflexes.

For example wired reflexes is technological. Your initiative increase when you turn it on. Thus it is (imo) not compatible with improved reflexes. You can still have both. They just don't stack. You have to pick which one you wish to benefit from when calculating your initiative.

Same with Glands. Your initiative increase with it compared to without... That is why this technological increase to initiative cannot (imo) be combined with the initiative increase improved reflexes provide.

[Namikaze]

Xenon, can you show me how you got your interpretation?  Everyone else seems to be agreeing with my take, and I'm very confused by how you got to your position.

[Xenon]

Simple:
1) When you turn on Wired Reflexes your Initiative Increase.
2) Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical Increases to Initiative.



(I also don't think everyone else think that Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes stack).

[Namikaze]

Simple:
1) When you turn on Wired Reflexes your Initiative Increase.
2) Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical Increases to Initiative.

Can you show me where Wired Reflexes increase your Initiative?

(I also don't think everyone else think that Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes stack).

You are grossly oversimplifying my (and everyone else that has commented in this thread's perspective on the issue.

[Xenon]

Can you show me where Wired Reflexes increase your Initiative?

Sure

Initiative 6 + 1d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned off.
Initiative 6(9) + 4d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned on.

If 6(9) + 4d6 is more than 6 + 1d6 then Initiative is increased (imo)

(I also don't think everyone else think that Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes stack).

You are grossly oversimplifying my (and everyone else that has commented in this thread's perspective on the issue.

But I do understand why you (and possible Kincaid?) don't consider that Wired Reflexes increase Initiative (because you consider that an increase to Initiative Dice does not count as an increase to Initiative and because you consider that an increase of Reaction does not count as an increase to Initiative - that you only consider that a direct increase to Initiative Attribute count as an increase to Initiative).

But you (and possible Kincaid?) is not everyone else.

For example, ZeConster say that WR increase Initiative because an increase to Reaction count as an increase to Initiative for the purpose of calculating the Initiative Attribute and The Wyrm Ouroboros say that WR Increase initiative because an increase to Initiative Dice is, by his reading, an increase to Initiative.

And I seem to be alone in my interpretation that an increase to reaction or intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative.

As weird as it feels to say, I actually agree with you on this...

...an increase to your initiative dice is also - by my reading - an increase to your initative...

[Namikaze]

Can you show me where Wired Reflexes increase your Initiative?

Sure

Initiative 6 + 1d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned off.
Initiative 6(9) + 4d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned on.

If 6(9) + 4d6 is more than 6 + 1d6 then Initiative is increased (imo)

The bonus +3 comes from a bonus to Reaction, not to Initiative.  And the Initiative Dice are separate from Initiative, as I'll explain below.

But I do understand why you (and possible Kincaid?) don't consider that Wired Reflexes increase Initiative (because you consider that an increase to Initiative Dice does not count as an increase to Initiative and because you consider that an increase of Reaction does not count as an increase to Initiative - that you only consider that a direct increase to Initiative Attribute count as an increase to Initiative).

With all due respect, Xenon...  you don't understand my perspective.  My point is that Initiative is a stat.  Increases to Reaction don't influence increase to Initiative.  If something says that it increases Initiative, but doesn't affect Reaction or Intuition, then the bonus is applied directly to the Initiative.  I'm honestly getting a little tired of repeating myself over and over again.

Reaction != Initiative.  Intuition != Initiative.  Initiative != Reaction.  Initiative != Intuition.

Initiative Dice are expressly used as a term to define the bonus dice in multiple pages in the core rulebook.  To say that they're the same as Initiative is to ignore the fact that these terms are completely separate.  Case in point:

INITIATIVE
Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation. A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition.

INITIATIVE DICE
Initiative Dice, as described on p. 159, are extra dice used to roll a character’s Initiative Score. They generally come from gear, spells, or adept powers. Everyone has one and can get up to four more (for a total of five) from
various gear, spells, and other effects. Hackers get extra initiative dice depending on how they interact with the Matrix (see p. 214).

Blitz: Roll the maximum of five Initiative Dice for a single Combat Turn.

Also be sure to note the number of Initiative Dice the character gets; all characters start with 1 (noted as 1D6) and can receive additional dice from augmentations. These should be listed after the Initiative Rating so the listing looks like this: 9 (11) + 2D6.

Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.

...

INITIATIVE ATTRIBUTE
The Initiative Attribute is a derived attribute used to measure the speed, perceptiveness, and reaction rate of a combatant. See the Initiative Attribute Chart to determine Initiative attributes for different types of combatants
(Physical, Astral, Matrix, or Rigging) and their Base Initiative Die.

INITIATIVE SCORE
To determine a character’s Initiative Score, make an Initiative Test rolling the character’s Initiative Dice and adding the total to your Initiative attribute—this total is your Initiative Score. Edge may be used on this test to roll the maximum of 5D6 for a single Combat Turn. The gamemaster records the score for each character, from highest to lowest. The character with the highest score goes first and the others follow in descending order during each Initiative Pass.

In some cases, a character’s Initiative Score or Base Initiative Dice may change in the middle of a Combat Turn. A player might gain Initiative by activating an augmentation, for example, or could receive a boost from a drug
or spell or other enhancer.

I could go on, but there are dozens of other references, and it just seems like I'm beating a dead horse.  There's a reason the words "Initiative Dice" are used separately from Initiative, Reaction, Intuition, Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, etc.  It's because the dice are separate from the attribute.  They are two separate things.  There's no reason to think that these two things are one and the same.

[Xenon]

One huge reoccurring problem with SR5 when it comes to discussions like this is that the book is not consistent with the words they use

On several occasions they use the word "Initiative" instead of "Physical Initiative".
On several occasions they use the word "Initiative" instead of "Initiative Attribute".

So when they say "increase to Initiative" they might or might not mean "increase to Physical Initiative" or "increase to Initiative Attribute".

Some people might argue that Improved Reflexes is an Increase to Physical Initiative and is incompatible with other increases to Physical Initiative.

Others might argue that Improved Reflexes is an Increase to Initiative Attribute ("Increase Reaction also affects Initiative [Attribute]") and is incompatible with other increases to Initiative Attribute.

You argue that Improved Reflexes is not a (direct) increase to Initiative Attribute but is incompatible with enhancements that do increase Initiative Attribute (directly) - which is only one single spell out of every Augmentation, Enhancement or Drug in the entire book.

Since the books is ambiguous there are many quotes we can throw at each other that support the idea that "Initiative" mean "Initiative Attribute" and that "Initiative" mean "Physical Initiative".

Going back to a named paragraph or section to get a clear definition doesn't help us either since:

On p. 52 we have a paragraph named "Initiative" that tell us that "Initiative" = "Initiative Attribute"
On p. 153 we find a whole section called "Initiative" that tell us that "Initiative" = "Physical Initiative"

[Xenon]

The bonus +3 comes from a bonus to Reaction, not to Initiative.

A bonus of +3 to Reaction increase Initiative Attribute.
A bonus of +3 to Reaction increase Physical Initiative.
A bonus of +3 to Reaction also increase Initiative Score.

[Namikaze]

The bonus to Reaction has effects on attributes derived from Reaction.  But Reaction is not anything but Reaction.  And Wired Reflexes doesn't boost Initiative, it boost Reaction and Initiative Dice.  It's pretty straightforward about this:

When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die.

Initiative Dice is a term that is not ambiguous at all.  I don't know why you can't seem to understand that the book separates Initiative and Initiative Dice.

[Xenon]

When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die.

You do realize that there is a difference between the increase to Reaction Attribute that Wired Reflexes provide and the increase to Reaction Attribute that Attribute Boost [Reaction] provide, right?

Wired Reflexes increase Reaction Attribute which also increase (give a bonus to / also affects) Initiative [Attribute].
Attribute Boost [Reaction] increase Reaction Attribute but does not also increase Initiative [Attribute].


Wired Reflexes increase your [Physical] Initiative (both with the bonus to Initiative [Attribute] and with the bonus to Initiative Dice).
Attribute Boost [reaction] does not increase your [Physical] Initiative.

Initiative Dice is a term that is not ambiguous at all.  I don't know why...

I never said "Initiative Dice" is ambiguous
(are you maybe confusing me with something The Wyrm Ouroboros said earlier....?)

I am talking about the word "Initiative" that either mean Initiative [Attribute] or [Physical] Initiative.

[justkelly]

On the topic "Suprathyroid Gland and the Improved Reflexes Adept Power"...


I'm going to enter this "conversation" because my characters are impacted by rule lawyers, and I have an opinion--which is...

From RAW (which I'm not repeating anyone below) AND reasonableness (is that a real word?) is that these two items can work together.   The adept who wants bioware enhancements, despite the disruption to their essence, may benefit from both items.  Improved Reflexes 3 and Suprathryoid Gland can add +4 to their Reaction, which is the max attribute enhancement.


My belief stems from the following thoughts:


First, sometimes the language is not perfectly crystal clear, so I look at the intent.  The intent is to not have multiple, essentially the same, items stacking and therefore  providing an unrealistic benefit to a player.


Second, the Suprathryoid Gland is a holistic physical effect on an organ that changes all elements of a person.


Third, the adept power (and only referencing the adept power) is intended to provide game flavor, and yes improved stats, to an adept indicating faster reaction - that character not only has a higher reaction attribute for actions like driving, but also can just move their body more quickly than the "average".


Let the volley begin....