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Run Faster Errata

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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #120 on: <09-22-16/1223:16> »
Shapeshifters should definitely have regeneration an vulnerability to silver (maybe panthers should be gold, other regional folklore based differences).

That said, regeneration was the main reason they were kinda broken in previous editions, and not usually allowed (in my experience) as PCs by most GMs.  I don't think that's balanced out by a vulnerability to silver, at all.  Were their karma costs made with regeneration in mind?  You guys seemed to go to great lengths to make Infected no longer start with regeneration, which seemed like a good change (though 12 karma still seems cheap).  Conversely, the omission of it from shifters seemed pretty glaring, but it doesn't sound like the same attention is being made for balance now in adding it back in. 

And yeah, dual natured.  That seems easy though, as it has both good and bad sides. 

Li

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« Reply #121 on: <09-24-16/2127:08> »
I disagree that shapeshifters should get both the vulnerability and allergy to silver, as well as dual-natured. One or the other is fine, but having both on one character makes them virtually impossible to play with all the negatives they get by way of being a shifter. Not only are they Uneducated for free, meaning they cannot default on rolls, but they have lower magic and edge pools for very high cost. And now they are severely allergic to silver, *and* dual-natured with none of the benefits that even Infected get to purchase. Regeneration really isn't that strong without a high body, even on home tables, and having the one positive for so many negatives just doesn't add up. They're being relegated, like naga, to NPC roles and little else, because they are pound for pound worse than any kind of metahuman. Meanwhile, pixies are as broken as ever.

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #122 on: <09-24-16/2325:00> »
We haven't gotten to pixies yet.
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MijRai

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« Reply #123 on: <09-25-16/0245:08> »
The Vulnerability/Allergy bit has been around for a long time, and Regeneration more than compensates for a bad reaction to a noble metal that isn't generally used in everyday things.  Unless you are trying to infiltrate upper-crust dining with real silverware or have prepared hunters gunning for 'shifters after you, it shouldn't be that common a trigger.  In fact, Vulnerability itself only affects the Regeneration power, nothing else.  Just because a normal metahuman has a severe allergy to Silver, it doesn't mean they're utterly screwed out of being awesome.  On top of that, you can buy off Uneducated (which not all 'shifters start with anyways).  That only represents a lack of interaction/experience with humanity, not that you can't learn ever.  Dual-Natured is another thing shapeshifters have always had and never should have lost in the first place, and it has positive side effects as well as the negative everyone doesn't like. 

What's your problem with naga?  The fact that the setting hasn't just glued arms to snakes like almost every other interpretation I've seen?  It's definitely more interesting this way, if nothing else.

And yes, we haven't gotten to pixies yet.  That's on my list for sure.  As are centaur, sasquatch and naga, as all of them need to be addressed in one way or another. 

The last thing I have to say, though?  If you want to play something weird, you better be ready to deal with the consequences of being weird.  Centaurs aren't going to be able to fit into normal vehicles.  Naga don't have limbs to do a lot of work (which is why Awakened naga in their society are the upper crust; they can use magic to do things directly or just cast Magic Fingers to manipulate objects 'manually').  Sasquatch have no voice boxes.  Shapeshifters aren't acclimated to society without paying the Karma cost for it.  Various metavariants are rather outlandish in appearance.  Be all the special snowflake you can be!  While some people consider the phrase pejorative, it is just another way of expressing something being unique.  Just be ready to accept the repercussions of such features.
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Reaver

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« Reply #124 on: <09-25-16/0745:33> »
Except Pixies.

Those can die in a lake of fire.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #125 on: <09-25-16/0813:41> »
That made me read the pixie section, trying to figure why they're so bad. 

Side note: correct term for "living autopsy" is just "vivisection".

Novocrane

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« Reply #126 on: <09-25-16/0929:28> »
I'd be pretty happy if shifters, metasapients, metavariants, changelings, drakes, infected, AIs, etc were brought down to a standardised power level - at least to start out.

Infected are almost there, as is.

MijRai

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« Reply #127 on: <09-25-16/1224:59> »
I'm not so big a fan of standardizing the power levels, personally.  My only desire is to have them require an appropriate investment for what you receive.  That way, if everyone is given the same amount of resources, the ones who don't pay for special things can invest in other upgrades to keep themselves on par. 

Oh, and thank you for reminding me that Changelings need fixing too.  The fluff and the mechanics for the three types are wildly divergent, so that should be looked into. 
« Last Edit: <09-25-16/1233:16> by MijRai »
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

dezmont

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« Reply #128 on: <09-25-16/1443:00> »
In fact, Vulnerability itself only affects the Regeneration power, nothing else.  Just because a normal metahuman has a severe allergy to Silver, it doesn't mean they're utterly screwed out of being awesome.

Vulnerability doesn't work the way you think it does. It adds a rather large DV increase to the damage of any attack using that weapon, in addition to disabling regeneration. Also, no one is seriously saying an allergy to silver makes you automatically bad, though people are correctly noting you are further reducing the total power level of shifters despite the fact that they are already very bad in order to maintain consistency with a previous edition over the integrity of the current one.

Dual-Natured is another thing shapeshifters have always had and never should have lost in the first place, and it has positive side effects as well as the negative everyone doesn't like.

Why? What part of being dual natured is integral to the shifter experience and lore? What would be so irreparably harmed by unsaddling them from that horrifically terrible quality to allow them to blend in and play up the duality between metahuman and animal more? What integral part of the lore is now ruined? Can you even name anything? Because it seems like arbitrary grognardism from the outside, a resistance to an edition update applied only in a very specific way for one specific type while leaving everything else, things that changed on a much more fundemental level, unchanged.

And more importantly, positive side effects? Really? Yes, you ignore the -2 to acting on both planes, but that is not at all an important benefit. The only real mechanical benefit being dual natured gives is that it allows you to assense slightly faster, but that doesn't even begin to overcome the many many negatives?

What's your problem with naga?  The fact that the setting hasn't just glued arms to snakes like almost every other interpretation I've seen?  It's definitely more interesting this way, if nothing else.

The mechanical price you pay to be one (The priority combined with being dual natured) is not worth the mechanical output. Basically you are ascribing cost to the cool factor of being a naga, which is bad design, it is like saying that pistols are cooler than assault rifles so you have to pay an extra 10 karma to learn them, even though despite being cooler than rifles they are mechanically worse.

Having fun or doing something interesting shouldn't have a 'cool tax' on it. This is true of most of the metasapients except for pixies, who are actually tit for tat better than metahumans at many aspects of the game, which is why Pixies have become somewhat of a meme among shadowrun playerbases.

The last thing I have to say, though?  If you want to play something weird, you better be ready to deal with the consequences of being weird.  Centaurs aren't going to be able to fit into normal vehicles.  Naga don't have limbs to do a lot of work (which is why Awakened naga in their society are the upper crust; they can use magic to do things directly or just cast Magic Fingers to manipulate objects 'manually').  Sasquatch have no voice boxes.  Shapeshifters aren't acclimated to society without paying the Karma cost for it.  Various metavariants are rather outlandish in appearance.  Be all the special snowflake you can be!  While some people consider the phrase pejorative, it is just another way of expressing something being unique.  Just be ready to accept the repercussions of such features.

No one is necessarily saying they want the weird variants to not have weird things about them. But what people are saying is that the mechanical cost of being a Shifter, Naga, Squatch, or Centaur is radically out of line with what they actually do. You pay a massive tax to do a weird concept, one that is so high Naga and Centaur essentially can't be played right now, and one that puts Shifters and Squatches deeply in the hole in terms of power to the point you are kind of being selfish and unkind to the fellow people at your table rolling them.

Furthermore there is agitation that there was an overfocus on restoring shifters to their old state rather than continuing the welcome trend of changing things from previous editions that didn't work. Shifters lost regeneration and dual natured, but their entire fluff changed, now there were major urban shifter populations that literally can no longer exist. There are wannabie metahuman shifters who no longer work because dual natured makes such an act totally impossible So did Dryads, if you didn't notice. They now come about from any elf anywhere in the world rather than being part of this one specific weird cult on an island. A change specifically made because dryads were popular but their lore was problematic.

Karma became edge, which is possibly the most massive lore change shadowrun ever saw. Mages gained summoning, Shamans gained binding, Spell formulae no longer had to be purchased at a specific force, and all magical types became one archtype with no rationale and no one batted an eye because it made the mage experience smoother.

Wireless bonuses exist. RCCs are now required to operate drones. Agents can't run on comlinks. None of these things changed as a part of the matrix protocol update, they changed for mechanical reasons and mechanical reasons alone.

Things change between editions that are major unexplained lore changes all the time and it isn't the job of Errata to undo clear design intent to make things better by making them different. If you are serious about undoing edition updates to the lore, then we need to seriously talk about how all the currently printed traditions will be supported and who will get what spell list.

I'm not so big a fan of standardizing the power levels, personally.  My only desire is to have them require an appropriate investment for what you receive.  That way, if everyone is given the same amount of resources, the ones who don't pay for special things can invest in other upgrades to keep themselves on par. 

That is literally the controversy, because none of the metasapients save pixies and some vampire variants actually offer that, and these changes are pushing the game away from that.

Oh, and thank you for reminding me that Changelings need fixing too.  The fluff and the mechanics for the three types are wildly divergent, so that should be looked into.   

Praise be to Firebringer this has been a long time coming!
« Last Edit: <09-25-16/1450:43> by dezmont »

Li

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« Reply #129 on: <09-25-16/1615:26> »
Okay, so since there seems to be some confusion as to what Dual-Nature does and does not do, let's break down the positives and negatives:

+Assensing becomes a simple action rather than a complex action
+No more -2 penalty for 'seeing' on the astral and the material at the same time

-Cannot go through astral barriers of any kind without breaking them, astral barriers being expensive, but common when dealing with magic-based corps
-No practical way to defend yourself against astral form spirits unless you are Awakened yourself
-Your aura is brighter when you are dual-natured than when you are not, which draws further attention
-Vulnerability to Manablade, even if you are not Awakened, as well as literally any other spell, with no defense except your base willpower

Do you see where I'm going with this? Doesn't exactly outweigh the positives, does it?

> What's your problem with Naga?

From a mechanical standpoint, besides the lack of arms (Which while refreshing, is grossly inconvenient), let's have another list:

* -1 reach on bite attacks: You're not misreading this, Naga have a -1 reach on their bite, meaning that no matter what, they are at a disadvantage (Dice pool penalty) in melee combat. I am playing a danger noodle that is strong as hell, and without hands, I am relegated to being melee or mage. Now, this dice pool penalty on my only natural weapon wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for
* 4 racial max agility: Unless I'm horribly mistaken, this means that not only do I have a hard time in melee as an adept with an unnaturally shitty base dice pool, I have even more of a hard time hitting things or attempting to grapple, which is an unarmed agility - not strength test.
* Venom: What strength of venom? What symptoms?
* Dual Natured: See above.
* Reduced max edge: Not as painful as say changelings, because they still have the ability to take magic 6. Still worthy of note.
* Guard: Is this supposed to be an apology for giving them shitty dice pools? 'At least you won't glitch?" Come on!

But that's alright, make your snake exclusively magical and specifically magician despite listing adepts as an option because for some inexplicable reason your talking snake has 7 charisma and willpower. And can't operate door handles without a gymnastics test (Which they suck at!). So much for danger noodle. (TRUSSSSSST IN MEEEE~!)

Now for Pixies. Oh, pixies, how I have such a burning hatred in my heart for thee. What does this mean? Another list! And just to mix things up, let's go negatives to positives, shall we?

- Their on-foot speed sucks. Again, understandable design choice, they have tiny legs.
- Uneducated. To use your own argument: They just don't have the chance to catch up with our society, being X-thousand years old does that.
- Maximum two body and strength. Understandable, except for the fact that, through magical augmentation, or any other kind (Pixie 'ware is "Extremely rare" not "Impossible under normal circumstances," and don't get me started on PT), they can get up to peak human strength for the low low cost of a force 2 quickened spell.

Positives:

+ Racial max of 7 in Logic and Intuition, and 8 in literally everything else. Adding that all together, that's 10 free attribute points for reduced body and strength. Trolls get +8 free attribute points in exchange for a little off the top in 4 categories (A lot if we're talking Charisma)
+ As of 5e, there is no issue with them firing any gun, as they can pay troll tax and be able to fire a scaled-down version that somehow has the same DV/AP values. Someone tell me how we scale down a 1.5 meter gun to pixie size and give it the same penetration power without blowing the 2 strength fairy's arms off. Oh, wait, magic!
+ Astral Perception: That's right, the thing that only mages get and adepts/mysads have to pay for? Pixies get it for free by nature of being pixies, and they can turn it on and off at will!
+ Concealment: Free critter power!
+x2/x6 Flying speed, +2 meters to flying movement. Ridiculous pixie speed so long as you don't completely burn out!
+7 edge: They're basically humans except better in every way except bench-pressing, because you can just take magic to fill in the blanks and make them have well beyond peak human forms, further giving mundane people the shaft.
+Vanishing: No body, no evidence! Win-win for the Johnson if the pixie starts bleeding out and dies!

I hope this cleared some of the confusion up on a number of topics, and helps the freelancers understand their player base a little better from a game design standpoint, rather than a past-edition one.
« Last Edit: <09-25-16/1620:08> by Li »

Novocrane

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« Reply #130 on: <09-25-16/2239:21> »
I'm not so big a fan of standardizing the power levels, personally.  My only desire is to have them require an appropriate investment for what you receive.
Those are roughly equivalent, only you don't seem to agree that any PC option should be able to be taken at the start of a standard game.

Quote
* Venom: What strength of venom? What symptoms?
Critter Power: Venom. When in doubt, always look to critter powers.
« Last Edit: <09-25-16/2245:17> by Novocrane »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #131 on: <09-26-16/0049:40> »
Okay, so since there seems to be some confusion as to what Dual-Nature does and does not do, let's break down the positives and negatives:

+Assensing becomes a simple action rather than a complex action
+No more -2 penalty for 'seeing' on the astral and the material at the same time
Slight misconception there, Shifting Perception (to or from Astral) is a simple action. Which means normally you would have to spend a simple action to turn it on, then another simple action to turn it back off.
Assensing was always a simple action. A dual-natured being effectively just always has Astral Perception turned on (and can't turn it off). Living that way constantly is what lets them negate the penalty normally associated with trying to interact with both worlds at once.

-Cannot go through astral barriers of any kind without breaking them, astral barriers being expensive, but common when dealing with magic-based corps
To be fair here, being dual-natured means that you can always see those barriers ahead of time, so you don't have to worry about accidentally walking through them. I've seen a decent number of mages accidentally try to walk through barriers to find that their spells and/or foci don't usually like that very much.

-No practical way to defend yourself against astral form spirits unless you are Awakened yourself
Dual-natured creatures have the same ability to defend themselves from astral entities that astrally perceiving characters would. Save that they don't have to only use astral-only attributes.
Quote from: Core Rulebook p. 315, first sentence
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.
Dual-natured critters can take Astral Combat as a skill no matter what, technically anyone can (just doesn't do much good to people without access to astral space.

-Your aura is brighter when you are dual-natured than when you are not, which draws further attention
Your aura is the same brightness as any other dual-natured creature, which includes any magician that is astrally perceiving. It doesn't give a precise amount of this brightness change, but the negative quality Astral Beacon also makes you "highly visible" which to me sounds more pronounced than just "more colorful." You'll also note that active foci also fall into the Astral Form category, so I don't think it is unreasonable to think that a Dual-natured entity could move around without drawing the attention of every magical related thing within sight. Heck, anything that could even possibly see that you are a dual-natured would themselves have to be dual-natured and therefore just as visible to you as you are to them.

-Vulnerability to Manablade, even if you are not Awakened, as well as literally any other spell, with no defense except your base willpower

Do you see where I'm going with this? Doesn't exactly outweigh the positives, does it?

I'm not sure what you are trying to refer to with this one. If you mean the Manablade spell from Hard Targets, it doesn't affect dual-natured creatures any more than anyone else. If you mean Mana spells, then yes, that would be the one significant drawback.



And Overall, yes, I think being Dual-natured is supposed to be one of the penalties that goes along with Shifters having Regeneration. Regeneration is hugely powerful, they heal at least one box of health every combat turn. Assuming a moderately poweful Shifter (Body 3, Magic 3), that means they would on average heal 5 boxes of health every turn. That is maybe about as much as a decent mage can heal with a casting of the Heal spell, but they don't suffer drain, and they keep doing it every turn. Knowing the Vulnerability is one of the few ways to consistently kill a Shifter (hence the reference to using silver bullets).

Honestly, these changes being added back to Shifter is restoring the powers (and balance) that they have been known to have previously. I don't remember anybody ever complaining about the powers (and weaknesses) when they had them before. So what changed? If anything, the weaknesses stayed the same as they were, and Regeneration got better.
« Last Edit: <09-26-16/0100:57> by Kiirnodel »

MijRai

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« Reply #132 on: <09-26-16/0256:23> »
Thank you, Kiir.

To recap:

Dual-Natured isn't the huge penalty people seem to think it is; there's a number of benefits and as a Dual-Natured creature you can fight back against astral threats.  Why do you think megacorporations bother with paracritters half the time?  Most can deal with astral problems as much as mundane.  On a team with low magic resources, a 'shifter can be the eyes and ears even without being fully Awakened (please don't complain about the whole 'Magicrun' phenomena going on, I don't like it either).  The fact that they've been Dual-Natured just like a good section of all paracritters are should mean something given it can be an aid more often than a hindrance and that it gives them another sense to stalk and hunt with even with their other keen senses disabled by whatever (say, smoke grenades or fog) is icing on the cake in my mind. 

Vulnerability is a weakness, sure.  As is Allergy.  It's a Vulnerability/Allergy to silver, though.  It ain't the most common thing in the world.  Normal people don't pack silver bullets and silver-edged weapons around for kicks.  Even elite troops aren't going to be packing that on a day-to-day basis.  The only time someone is bringing a silver weapon or ammunition to a fight is when they know 'shifters are going to be involved.  That means maybe the Russian government and Aztechnology/Aztlan have stockpiles, as they're the only people who regularly pick fights with 'shifter-heavy populations.  And if you're a 'shifter running against them, you should be taking precautions of your own to not get shot in the first place.  Maybe if 'shifters were Severely allergic to iron or plastic or oxygen or something else that is ubiquitous in this setting, this would be a problem. 

I do agree that Naga need to be repriced, since you don't get what you pay for; I've already said I would prefer to reprice things to balance the costs out appropriately.  I'd personally lower the Karma cost by a lot.  Same goes for Centaurs and Sasquatch, while I'd charge more for Pixies.  That said, I'm against blatantly changing their Attributes (except to just level out Edge, that makes no sense to me) and a few Statistics.  I mean, really.  Do you think a bite has any Reach to it?  No!  You're literally trying to get the teeth in your skull into them.  That's pretty much as close as you can get to someone without going into XXX territory.  And while yes, you're at something of a disadvantage in trying to grapple someone (I've had pet snakes, and they can have trouble getting a proper hold on something that knows what the snake is doing; snakes are usually ambush predators), once you have the hold, you use Strength, not Agility. 
Adjusting Lifestyles, however...  That would be a good idea.  And addressing the gear compatibility, which applies to more than just pixies. 

Also not getting this idea where your pixies are thousands of years old.  Nor how they would be able to have spent their alleged thousands of years to become accustomed to humanity if they've not been here the entire time.  Pixies weren't just frolicking about the Fifth World, constantly learning about us.  To expand further, by the books Pixies are generally an insular species who don't often associate with people, thus not socializing and acclimating to our culture even if they were around. 

One of the problems with Pixies currently is they actually don't pay said 'troll tax;' gear concerns haven't been addressed.  On top of that, the current Vanishing power they have isn't the 'their body disappears when they die' one.  In other words, on top of the lack of Lifestyle adjustment and all, Pixies have Problems that need to be fixed.  I agree.  I disagree with tossing the pixie's design out the window, however.  They're small, flighty gits who are hard to spot and can literally fly. 

And Novocrane, where do I say I don't think PC options shouldn't be available at CC?  I'm all for adjusting the costs to make them appropriate for what you receive (and for the most part I don't think any of them are worth over 25 Karma, or the number of Special Attribute points one needs to cough up).  Or, to draw from the Drake rules in Howling Shadows, you can go in Karma debt to start as one if it gets too expensive. 

P.S.  Naga Venom is the Venom power, to start.  Power equal to Magic.  And Hard Targets specifies that instead of taking a Combat Turn it is Immediate.  So while the information is wee bit spread out, it is there. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Novocrane

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« Reply #133 on: <09-26-16/0319:25> »
Quote
And Novocrane, where do I say I don't think PC options shouldn't be available at CC?
You didn't, and I accidentally a word or two. But. If the price of power is equal and the power level of PC options vary, it's more likely there will be options that will feel anaemic by way of having all their points tied up in that one option under standard chargen.
« Last Edit: <09-26-16/0323:04> by Novocrane »

MijRai

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« Reply #134 on: <09-26-16/1246:17> »
Ah, gotcha.

Well, my perspective is that they shouldn't have to feel anemic about what they bought.  The price of power shouldn't just be flat for everything, it should be based on what you receive.  A 'shifter should cost more than a regular metahuman, because you receive Regeneration, physical stat increases, the ability to turn into a critter (a number of those forms are amazing for certain roles/survivability), etc.  In their bailiwick, they're going to surpass vanilla mortals in what they do.  The Allergy and Vulnerability basically negate the Regeneration and Uneducated helps pay off the cost, so you have to cover the rest of the Karma from there. 

Of course, one also has to factor in that some people will never be satisfied and that you shouldn't try to go out on a limb to appease those people at the risk of introducing mechanical flaws or alienating the general population. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

 

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