NEWS

Proofreading: Any plans to fix the problem?

  • 147 Replies
  • 59084 Views

PeterSmith

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
« Reply #75 on: <01-12-11/1513:44> »
Hey!  Some of us whine for the sake of being dicks too you know.

I wasn't going to say anything, that whole "Let's be adults here." rule and everything. ^_^
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

FastJack

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • Kids these days...
« Reply #76 on: <01-12-11/1539:26> »
Hey!  Some of us whine for the sake of being dicks too you know.

I wasn't going to say anything, that whole "Let's be adults here." rule and everything. ^_^
Monky has his own corollary to that law. ;)

Raventrickster

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 64
« Reply #77 on: <01-12-11/1543:36> »
There's a point where getting out errata to fix products becomes not a point of wanting to do it, but rather a point of needing to do it to get books to the point where people realize that they are actually going to do quality products.  I think Catalyst is about one bad book away from a having a substantial portion of the fanbase (and I'm not even just referring to the vocal online fanbase) stop buying books because they realize they're going to be crap.

Truth be told from some of the griping I've seen around here and Dumpshock I'd say they hit that point with War! amongst a statistically significant portion of the vocal internet fanbase.  Even a start on putting out some old errata might help their case here, given that there are at least 2 books worth that sound like they only need layout at a max before being put out.  I'm not even going to cut them slack at this point for the fact that they've had to change layout people because their old one left during the Bills crisis, since from the sounds of it this has been ready more than long enough that it could have been solved before then.

Given that they fought to keep the license for Shadowrun, it's about time they started making us think they actually want it rather than treating it like an ork born in a humanis neighbourhood.

FastJack

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • Kids these days...
« Reply #78 on: <01-12-11/1618:25> »
There's a point where getting out errata to fix products becomes not a point of wanting to do it, but rather a point of needing to do it to get books to the point where people realize that they are actually going to do quality products.  I think Catalyst is about one bad book away from a having a substantial portion of the fanbase (and I'm not even just referring to the vocal online fanbase) stop buying books because they realize they're going to be crap.

Truth be told from some of the griping I've seen around here and Dumpshock I'd say they hit that point with War! amongst a statistically significant portion of the vocal internet fanbase.  Even a start on putting out some old errata might help their case here, given that there are at least 2 books worth that sound like they only need layout at a max before being put out.  I'm not even going to cut them slack at this point for the fact that they've had to change layout people because their old one left during the Bills crisis, since from the sounds of it this has been ready more than long enough that it could have been solved before then.

Given that they fought to keep the license for Shadowrun, it's about time they started making us think they actually want it rather than treating it like an ork born in a humanis neighbourhood.
And it's my opinion that they haven't reached that yet based on the outcry on these forums. Except for some (about a dozen) very vocal people, I don't see the majority of fans here ready to stop buying books.

If the product doesn't meet with your expectations, that's fine. Vote with your pocketbook (god knows I've been doing just that with WotC products for the last 3½ years). But here's the thing. You've made your point that you don't like it and want better quality. So have others. That doesn't mean you need to come in and reiterate that sentiment every few weeks/days/hours.

Now to go off on a tangent:

As the old adage goes, "You get more flies with honey than vinegar". Posting on the boards with polite comments regarding the errors in the books, detailing what you've found in the Errata subforum and telling the writers what you liked and didn't like (again, politely) will get more of a reaction than complaining that they haven't made any good decisions since X.

I'll tell you what I'm basing this off of. I'm a long-standing resident over at Candlekeep forums as well, and they have a LOT of authors and FR Game Designers come by to answer questions and such. They got to where they are by being very conscientious towards their industry guests and making sure all the scribes do the same. I'd love to see that type of atmosphere here, where we could show that we're mature enough that we might convince other "bigwigs" to stop by and answer questions from their fans without fear that they'll get a bunch of comments that are more appropriate over on Youtube.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that you can't complain. Bitch, whine and moan! But you can do so and STILL be polite to those that are writing what we're reading. The general rule of thumb I use for posting ANYTHING on the internet is "Would my mom/dad/whomever be okay with what I wrote if taken out of context?"

Bradd

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
« Reply #79 on: <01-12-11/1714:17> »
I have long said that Shadowrun is my favorite bad RPG. It's gotten better with each edition, but the system has always been arcane, and the setting is more like an action movie than a plausible alternate history. Regardless, the game has always been a ton of fun to play! The recent releases have been along the same vein. There are lots of little fiddly things that I would fix, and a few things are downright annoying, but honestly that's how Shadowrun has always been for me. I've still found the books very helpful and a lot of fun, especially WAR! with its new game information, so they'll certainly not turn me away from the game.

More generally, this has been my experience with the whole RPG industry – and with technical books, and novels, and frankly all publications. Even college textbooks have extensive errata, despite all the reviews that those go through before publication. Fiction, including game books, have much lower standards (and rightfully so, in my opinion). I personally would rather have more creative material, even if it means that I need to fix it myself sometimes.

Of course, if I didn't need to fix it myself, that would be nice too. ;)

FutureBoy

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 8
« Reply #80 on: <01-12-11/1722:35> »
I've always looked at forums like these as a company coming to me, hat in hand, and asking in very earnest terms what I think of their product. Doubly so with these forums as the actual creators seem to pay attention to them. If  someone thinks enough of my opinion to set up and maintain a complicated feedback site, then I want to give it to them in the most constructive way possible.

I've been playing Shadowrun since second edition and I consider fourth edition to be, by far, my favorite. Of this round of books I've loved the Almanac the most because I ADORE the fluff and backstory of the universe. I was irritated by the misprinted columns but i didn't get that upset at them because I live in an imperfect world filled with imperfect people and that was honestly the first misprint that I'd seen that was glaring enough for me to notice it. I understand that War! has a few more and that is sad but I'm a smart and logical human being and if I see something that doesn't make sense I can extrapolate what was probably intended and work from there. I don't see this as indicative of a trend though, I see this as the end result of some innercompany turmoil and it seems like everyone involved is on board with making sure it doesn't happen again. I'm content.

PeterSmith

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
« Reply #81 on: <01-12-11/1729:37> »
There's a point where getting out errata to fix products becomes not a point of wanting to do it, but rather a point of needing to do it to get books to the point where people realize that they are actually going to do quality products.

Needing to get errata out is important, that should go without saying (but I will anyway). The question is in what format are we talking about. A simple PDF of the errata? That shouldn't be too tough. Rolling the errata into the book PDFs? That requires the book to go through layout again, it's not always easy.

I think Catalyst is about one bad book away from a having a substantial portion of the fanbase (and I'm not even just referring to the vocal online fanbase) stop buying books because they realize they're going to be crap.

I don't.

Truth be told from some of the griping I've seen around here and Dumpshock I'd say they hit that point with War! amongst a statistically significant portion of the vocal internet fanbase.

They may delude themselves into thinking otherwise, but the online fanbase is not representative of fans everywhere. I'm willing to bet if you did a straw poll of Shadowrun players the majority won't even know there were issues with CGL. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that a good number can't even tell who's publishing it without looking at the covers.

Even a start on putting out some old errata might help their case here, given that there are at least 2 books worth that sound like they only need layout at a max before being put out.

Who's your source that there are "...at least 2 books worth..."? Unless it's Jason I wouldn't believe the source. If it's one of the people who've been grinding axes for the last year-ish then I would not only not believe them but I would accuse them of stirring up more trouble.

I'm not even going to cut them slack at this point for the fact that they've had to change layout people because their old one left during the Bills crisis, since from the sounds of it this has been ready more than long enough that it could have been solved before then.

Your call. I offered help to Jason, sounds like he's going to accept it. I'll let him continue to be the public face (so don't bother asking me for statuses), while I volunteer my time to help make things better.

Given that they fought to keep the license for Shadowrun, it's about time they started making us think they actually want it rather than treating it like an ork born in a humanis neighbourhood.

Shadowrun's working out the kinks. A little patience will go a long way here.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

Cain

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 17
« Reply #82 on: <01-12-11/1731:09> »
Quote
But you can do so and STILL be polite to those that are writing what we're reading. The general rule of thumb I use for posting ANYTHING on the internet is "Would my mom/dad/whomever be okay with what I wrote if taken out of context?"
This is the internet.  I am not responsible for people taking my words out of context, nor can I do *anything* to prevent it.  

I agree that open flames and insults don't belong, but come on!  Even I'm not PC enough to try and avoid bruising the ego of everyone in the world.  

As for buying War! versus not buying it, it's your decision.  However, you should know that the more shoddy product you buy, the shoddier it'll get.  If you want to help Shadowrun, vote with your wallet in favor of high-quality product.  The only thing companies listen to is the bottom line.  If they discover that you'll buy steaming turds with the Shadowrun logo stamped on them, they'll sell you steaming turds.  That's the whole point of making a profit.

Quote
Shadowrun's working out the kinks. A little patience will go a long way here.
I've been playing this game for 22 years.  I think I've had a lot of patience. 
« Last Edit: <01-12-11/1733:19> by Cain »

Bradd

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
« Reply #83 on: <01-12-11/1812:46> »
Sixth World Almanac and WAR! are high-quality products, by the standards I look for in an RPG supplement. They're full of excellent material to help me prep and play the game. I'm annoyed by some of the glitches in the book, but I don't demand perfection when they're fulfilling their primary function quite well. I've already used both books actively in my group, and the game is better for it.

Starglyte

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 63
« Reply #84 on: <01-12-11/2018:46> »


However, you should know that the more shoddy product you buy, the shoddier it'll get.  If you want to help Shadowrun, vote with your wallet in favor of high-quality product.

I happen to like the recent books and I don't think they are shoddy. I am voting in favor of getting more high-quality product by giving them my money since I like what I am seeing.

Outrider45

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #85 on: <01-12-11/2024:57> »
I've enjoyed the heck out of the Sixth World Almanac and like the content within. I really didn't notice the errors until I decided to join the forums and to be honest I find them rather minor annoyances than company ending problems. As long as I get a thread or pdf or something that clues me into the missing timeline segments its all good with me. I like the presentation the books are giving. I like full color hardcovers with the bookmark already bound into the book. It looks great. I love the fluff within. And in a way I am voting with my wallet because my wife and I are on a budget and I can only purchase so many books in a year. I wouldn't be buying Shadowrun if I didn't enjoy what I'm reading.

Just my opinion.

PeterSmith

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
« Reply #86 on: <01-12-11/2028:32> »
I've been playing this game for 22 years.  I think I've had a lot of patience.

I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with anything? You may have gotten in from the first edition of the game, but how does that make your demands any more important than somebody who got in after you? Why should your opinion be singled out in the sea of other opinions that have been spoken? What does your history of participation have to do with the fact that the game has had, what, five or six Line Developers in the last three years?
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

Cain

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 17
« Reply #87 on: <01-13-11/0309:47> »
Quote
What does your history of participation have to do with the fact that the game has had, what, five or six Line Developers in the last three years?
You asked for a little patience.  I'm pointing out that Shadowrun fans have had a lot of patience recently, especially under CGL.  There comes a point where you can't reasonably ask for more time, and CGL hit it quite a while back. 

As for the quality of War!-- it's got nothing on past books, or even what CGL is capable of.  SR4.5 core is a very nicely done book, well-put together.  But quality is going downhill.  On Thee Run was good if misguided, Ghost Cartels was plain headache-inducing, and now this? 

Mäx

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1572
« Reply #88 on: <01-13-11/1035:55> »
Who's your source that there are "...at least 2 books worth..."? Unless it's Jason I wouldn't believe the source. If it's one of the people who've been grinding axes for the last year-ish then I would not only not believe them but I would accuse them of stirring up more trouble.
Nice for you to not read the topic and make baseless accusations to boot.
That erratas for 2 books are ready is a fact, the german Augmentation includes the errata(that is translated from the English errata)  and the RC errata is available in English for those who are willing to shell out money for a new printing of the book, the rest of us are for some bizarre reason shit out of luck as far as any erratas go.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

PeterSmith

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
« Reply #89 on: <01-13-11/1205:31> »
Nice for you to not read the topic and make baseless accusations to boot.

I read the thread. It's an interesting read.

That erratas for 2 books are ready is a fact...

See, that's the funny thing. I get people telling me this in one ear, the first time I remember seeing anything about this was over at TGD. A place that I have no faith in. In my other ear, I have Jason telling me something else. Guess who I'm going to believe?
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk