[Bull]

I will note (And I always get ignored when I do this, so...  Feel free ...

1)  Denver was a demilitarized zone.  This means they didn't have heavy amounts of troops in the region, just token law enforcement and peacekeeping forces.  When Ghostwalker came in, they were woefully unprepared.  Plus, the very treaty of the city, with the various zones, prevented most of the countries involved from bringing in additional forces easily. 

2)  Ghostwalker did not come alone.  Ghostwalker is one of the best, if not the most powerful summoner the 6th world has seen, augmented by his time in the Metaplanes.  Ghostwalker had a veritable horde of spirits that came with him.

3)  This happened FAST.  Ghostwalker came in, kicked ass, and then sought to negotiate all in the span of what, a day or two?  By the time anyone really understood what was going on and was able to mobilize, it was over.

4)  Note that Ghostwalker swooped in, beat the shit out of the Azzies, kicked them out, and then made a pact with the rest of he powers.  Ghostwalker may be a very old fashioned dragon with a very 4th world feudal mindset, but he's not stupid.  He made alliances.  He bought the CAS by giving them the Azzies sector, and he cut deals with the UCAS and at least one or two of the NAN nations.  Enough that when they bellied up to the bargaining table, GW had enough leverage to get a new treaty.

5)  What does Denver really have that any of the countries want at this point?  Most of them probably said "Fuck it, we'll let the dragon think he's in charge".  Ghostwalker didn't prevent any of them from doing business.  He basically just said "Hey, I'm in charge.  I run things.  But you guys can keep managing your sectors like you always did."  It wasn't worth fighting over.

Year of the Comet wasn't really explicit about a lot of things, because a lot of it was the initial story, the initial hook.  There were a lot of implications behind the scenes.  And there was supposed to be a follow up in the next year or two that would have dealt with Denver in more detail.  But FASA folded before that project ever got started, and while FanPro picked up the ball and finished the books that were in the pipeline, directions were changed and the followup never happened.

A LOT of thought did go into Ghostwalker and Year of the Comet.  And while, yes, the core basis was "WOuldn't this be cool if...", we still grounded it in a certain amount of reality. 

You have to blend Coll & fun with realism, but a rule of thumb for us back then was that realism couldn't take away from the fun.  This is a world of magic and dragons and giant sprawling megacorps and Amerind uprisings and crazy cyberware.  We expected people to be able to suspend their disbelief.  And hey, as it always was...  If you don't like it, don't use it.  It's your game.  I've heard of folks who ignored the NAN backstory completely, which I find hard to do because it's so crucial to the entire development of Shadowrun.  But...  <shrug>  There are no game police.  And, this *is* just a game.

Bull

[Bull]

Nut is right, as Ghostwalker was the most powerful dragon back in the Earthdawn times. Especially with magic - that was his thing. I'm wondering, why did he oversleep? Maybe Big D pulled a prank on him?

As for the Behemoth thin, that was not Icewing, i think. Wasn't that his mate? I don't really remember.
Wait. No, that was not him. Especially since when Therans came to 'teach him a lesson', they only found an empty lair.

He didn't oversleep.

Keep in mind that Earthdawn was created after Shadowrun.  A lot of stuff was added to Earthdawn to flesh it out, but since it was Post SR, some of that stuff never showed up in SR.

Ghostwalker was one of those things.

When we were doing Year of the Comet, we realized that not only was Haley's Comet traditionally a Big Deal and that it was a portent of great change, but we also realized it fell on the 50th anniversary of the Awakening.  So we decided to mimic the events of the Original awakening...  WHich was magic returning (Or in this case, the mana levels spiking), metahumans appearing (SURGE), and a Dragon appearing (Ghostwalker).

When Dunkie died, he left behind this big astral rift.  No one knew what the rift was or what it did.  It just kinda hung there for a couple years.  So the idea we came up with was...  What if Icewing, Dunkie's big brother from ED who had yet to make an appearance in SR...  What if he had gotten trapped in the Metaplanes somehow back in the day.  the how didn't really matter...  Maybe he had gone on an extended Astral Quest right befor ethe manacycle dropped too low for that plane to connect to ours anymore.  Whatever. 

So Dunkie, being the long thinker that he was, knew that the Comet's passing would spike the mana level.  So when he committed suicide, he was taking care of several problems at once.  Not only did his death power the Dragon Heart, but he also created a weakened barrier between the physical plane and certain metaplanes, so that when the mana level spiked, that plane would be accessible for a time, and would allow Ghostwalker to come back from the Metaplanes where he'd been hanging out for the last few millennium.

One of the other ideas, and why GW attacked Denver the way he did...  Ghostwalkers always been a big Spirit guy.  And the Denver Box set talked about a really, really powerful free spirit in Denver that was fractured.  What if that Spirit was the ghost or remnants of Icewings mate?  (i'm blanking on her name off hand, I was never really up on Earthdawn lore)  This was one idea for why he attacked Denver.  He's been hoping to restore the spirit in an attempt to get his mate back.  Since one of the theories for why the spirit was fractured was because of the treaty and the way the city was divided...  Maybe uniting the city under a single leadership would help repair it? 

Eh, like I said, there was a lot of idea and backstory there that never really saw the light of day.  I'm hoping that SPy Games will touch on a t least a little of this.

Bull

[Kot]

There are no game police.  And, this *is* just a game.

Game police? For Shadowrun? That would be the best reason to do things like that. Hell, it's a part of the game, to 'stick it up to the man/corps/LoneStar'.

[Crimsondude]

BTW, the Treaty of Denver is not just about Denver.

[Nath]

3)  This happened FAST.  Ghostwalker came in, kicked ass, and then sought to negotiate all in the span of what, a day or two?  By the time anyone really understood what was going on and was able to mobilize, it was over.

According to Year of the Comet, Ghostwalker first attack occurred on December 25th, and many others occurred over the following weeks, until the Council of Denver on January 27th, when Ghostwalker dictated his conditions.

[Bull]

Nath:  Yeah, you're right.  It's been a while.

But, the point more or less stands.  GW cut deals ahead of time with the CAS, the UCAS, and...  The PCC?  One of the NAN, anyway.  And after the first couple of days, most of the attacks were likely pretty guerrilla in nature.  When you can have a Force 20 Air Spirit concealing you, and have a force 20 Invisibility spell, plus Masking, Imrpoved Masking, Extended Masking, and probably Dragon Masking...  Ain't no one gonna see you until you want them to.  And by the time the military is mobilized and moving to your position, you're gone again.

It was also pretty explicit that he was focusing on Atzlan targets.  With as big of dicks as Aztlan is, especially back then, I can easily imagine the rest of the Treaty Nations going "OH, dragon attack?  We're sorry, the treaty doesn't cover Peacekeeper mobilization in case of dragon attack.  the treaty does very clearly state, however, that you cannot move major military assets into the region.  Especially those tanks and jets and helicopters.  We don't trust you to send them home after this is all over.  Plus?  We've decided Ghosties an alright guy.  He's leaving us alone, after all..."

Plus, you know, writer fiat, creative license, etc etc etc.  

Bull

[Crimsondude]

Ah GW. People bitched about him dodging lasers for years.

[Bull]

Me, I love the big white bastard. 

[Crimsondude]

Only good wyrm is a dead wyrm.

Actually they still arent't good.

[Chaemera]

Only good wyrm is a dead wyrm.

Actually they still arent't good.

Barbequed with a classic Carolina sauce?

Dragon Hot Wings?

I can see potential here...

[Kot]

Ghostwalker is actually that one worm sly enough to know when they are going for him. So, when it comes to orbital lasers and THOR shots, he just isn't there anymore. As i wrote - Therans tried that one already. And what good it did do?

[Bull]

Look, I watched the GI Joe cartoon growing up.  We all know that you can dodge lasers all day long.



Bull

[Dead Monky]

Barbequed with a classic Carolina sauce?

Dragon Hot Wings?

I can see potential here...

Hah!  That reminded me of an episode of Slayers.  The one where they spend the entire episode trying to catch a dragon so Lina can eat it, finally do so, then find out it will take months to years to properly prepare it.  Classic.

[raggedhalo]

What if that Spirit was the ghost or remnants of Icewings mate?  (i'm blanking on her name off hand, I was never really up on Earthdawn lore)  This was one idea for why he attacked Denver.  He's been hoping to restore the spirit in an attempt to get his mate back.

Yuichotol, I think?  She turns up in one of the Denver Missions (well, the Mission is about her, rather than actually turning up).

[Semerkhet]

Ghostwalker is actually that one worm sly enough to know when they are going for him. So, when it comes to orbital lasers and THOR shots, he just isn't there anymore. As i wrote - Therans tried that one already. And what good it did do?

This is a fabulous example of YMMV at work. Your quote about GW is something that pretty obviously pleases you. For me, your quote points to, far better than I ever did earlier in the thread, my *precise* reason for hating GW and everything he represents. I do not want anything or anyone in my game world that is totally invulnerable. It doesn't say "awesome" to me, it says "why bother."  My game is about wish fulfillment for my players and totally invincible NPCs get in the way of that, even if they never appear in person.

So discard all my arguments about the plausibility of GW staying in control of Denver. My real reason for removing him from my game is that his very existence offends me.

Smiley added to denote that I wrote this post with a smile on my face.