[raben-aas]

Re: Kaltenstein. Is he truly dead? I remember him being defeated, but I also kinda remember he retreated to the Blackforest Troll Kingdom or sth...

[MK Ultra]

I remember the rumors that Kaltenstein moved to the Blackforest and bekame King Berthold in Troll form, but I don´t know if these rumors where ever confirmed. Berthold vanished (in the 60s?), but AFAIK Kaltenstein did not resurface.

[Frostriese]

Re: Kaltenstein. Is he truly dead? I remember him being defeated, but I also kinda remember he retreated to the Blackforest Troll Kingdom or sth...

Re: Kaltenstein. Is he truly dead? I remember him being defeated, but I also kinda remember he retreated to the Blackforest Troll Kingdom or sth...

Kaltenstein has always been in the Troll Kingdom. Do you per chance confuse Nachtmeister and Kaltenstein here?
Nachtmeister was defeated by Lofwyr in the skies of Frankfurt, falling down into the Palmengarten (popular botanic garden) that had just been bought up by S-K. I think some editions did leave it unclear wether it was a real fight or maybe a mating ritual, but of course theres always been that scenario where the runners are right in the middle of it - Nachtmeister is dead.

Kaltenstein, OTOH, has gone missing, as has Troll King Bertram/Bertold (name depending on publication, IIRC), which has led to speculation that the Troll King had been Kaltenstein all along, in metahuman form.

---
Now, as for Denver - actually, the fact that just about all continental powers had a stake in it made it easier for Ghostwalker to conquer. I think the UCAS and Sioux carving in so easily is not really realistic, but the general conquest is. Ghostwalker used classical divida et impera. The Denver Council had always been split, fractional and ineffective, so it is only natural it could mount an effective defense. And in the end, Ghostwalker even brought council powers to go against each other, which is also logical. No, I think that invasion made sense.

As for Seattle secession, that would be a purely internal UCAS affair and would hence not need a renegotiation of the treaty, just as CAS secession did not. For what it's worth, there would be some good reasons for independence - Seattle would stand to gain if it could perform its own economical policy - there was that example of the UCAS sabotaging Seattle trade talks with uh, Japan or Korea, I think, and maybe something could be done about the Seattle/SSC customs border as well. Also, due to Amerindian, East Asian and Tir-Elven influences, and due to the high percentage of metahumans and especially SURGElings Seattle does have a rather unique culture, though that of course that is not exactly coming to the forefront under the Brackhaven government. So, there would be reasons for independence, and the topic has been simmering for so long that it also would be organic - but it is hardly necessary or even inevitable.

[raben-aas]

Re: Confusing Nachtmeister & Kaltenstein

I don't think so(?). The way I remember it, some dragon or other beat the shit out of Feuerschwinge, who crashed into the SOX, and Kaltenstein – being "her" lover – wanted to go her and was attacked by ... someone and Lofwyr, a battle in which he was defeated. Someone in this thread said Kaltenstein was killed (presumably in that fight), whereas I read some entries in the German wiki/Shadowhelix that Kaltenstein is rumored to be hiding in the troll kingdom.

Granted, I don't usually pay attention to whatever dragons are doing, but the discussion here peaked my interest.

[Frostriese]

Oh, yes, right, that, but that was right after the Awakening in 2011. Far from modern history.

Feuerschwinge was actually shot down by military... Bundeswehr anti-air missiles, IIRC. Right over the SOX. Kaltenstein tried to rush her rescue, which given the conditions in the SOX would have amounted to suicide. Nebelherr (originally said to be a Great Dragon, later retconned to be a really big adult dragon) tried to stop him, but would have gotten ran over by Kaltenstein had Lofwyr not rushed to his defense.

I have heard of no description of that fight where Kaltenstein has been killed. The only confusion is about Feuerschwinge: Dead? In Iceland? Or still in the SOX as a toxic Great Dragon? Or maybe later killed in the SOX as a toxic Great Dragon? Kaltenstein simply disappeared in the 60s, as part of the great purge of German Great Dragons (the original German sourcebook went a bit overboard with 6 Great Dragons in Germany - so Feuerschwinge is never really mentioned again, Nachtmeister is killed, Kaltenstein disappears, Nebelherr is retconned to be an adult dragon and Schwarzkopf is now primarily in Czechia)

[Crossbow]

Was this all stuff in the old Germany sourcebook, or is this stuff that came out in german publcations?  Just interested in checking it out if I can.

[raggedhalo]

As for Seattle secession, that would be a purely internal UCAS affair and would hence not need a renegotiation of the treaty, just as CAS secession did not.

Actually, I think the situation's rather different; Seattle was established as a UCAS port on the Pacific coast as part of the treaty.  It owes its existence as a UCAS province (rather than as part of the SSC) to the Treaty.  From Seattle's perspective, being a signatory to any renegotiated Treaty would be a huge step forward for secession - because then their existence would be de facto accepted by all other signatories, and their borders stated clearly in a document enforceable (IIRC) by all signatories.

And crucially, the secession movement doesn't have to make sense in terms of rationality or realpolitik; it just needs to capture the enthusiasm of enough of Seattle's inhabitants that they start pushing for it and electing candidates (Governor, plus Senate and House) on that basis.  The ideology can be just as important as the measurables.

I agree it's not necessary or inevitable, I just like the idea.

[Frostriese]

As for Seattle secession, that would be a purely internal UCAS affair and would hence not need a renegotiation of the treaty, just as CAS secession did not.

Actually, I think the situation's rather different; Seattle was established as a UCAS port on the Pacific coast as part of the treaty.  It owes its existence as a UCAS province (rather than as part of the SSC) to the Treaty.  From Seattle's perspective, being a signatory to any renegotiated Treaty would be a huge step forward for secession - because then their existence would be de facto accepted by all other signatories, and their borders stated clearly in a document enforceable (IIRC) by all signatories.

Thats not quite how it works, usually. The then still USA and Canada ceded a potion of their territory to the NAN. Seattle was not among them. It was not turned over to the USA or something, it simply did not fall under the territorial provisions of the treaty (except for Council Island). It does owe its position as UCAS Pacific Port to the treaty - as city it was founded centuries before, then it was simply not affected by the treaty, and when the USA and Canada merged by default it became part of the UCAS.

That is generally the issue with territorial clauses in treaties. They do not need to be upheld as such, they already have happened. The USA and Canada ceded territory, and that was the new status quo, long before any possible Free City of Seattle. Thus technically-legally one could even argue an independent Seattle cannot become a signatory country - the treaty dealt with territory that was never part of the now independent Free City of Seattle, at a time decades before that new polity arose. That is rather how things work.

The only parts of the treaty that are about ongoing affairs refer to Denver and the Anglo reservations within the NAN. I doubt Seattle would gain a sector in Denver, and due to Ghostwalker that is largely immaterial anyway, and I also doubt the Anglo reservations would want any representation by Seattle instead of the UCAS. So given that, granting any possible Free City of Seattle a signatory status is absolutely irrelevant. Now, for symbolic-diplomatic reasons it could still happen, if Seattle gains independence, but it is not encessary and in any case Seattle secession would not affect the treaty at all.

Was this all stuff in the old Germany sourcebook, or is this stuff that came out in german publcations?  Just interested in checking it out if I can.

The mention of the six great dragons was in the Germany sourcebooks. The Lofwyr/Nachtmeister fight was part of some English material campaign. Nebelherr and Schwarzkopf are mentioned in Dragons of the Sixth World, including Nebelherrs retcon and Schwarzkopf setting up shop in Prague. The latter is also mentioned, complete with the Schwarzkopf-sponsored secession of Marienbad from the AGS and its joining Czechia in Shadows of Europe. Nachtmeister, Kaltenstein and Feuerschwinge and their fates are mentioned as mere asides in Dragons of the Sixth World. I think German publications play around with the Feuerschwinge-in-the-SOX motive. At least one novel does, but I dimly remember also other stuff. I don't think that is in any English material...

[Crimsondude]

Lofwyr and Nachtmeister was in the German Fanpro campaign, Shockwaves. An English-language summary pdf was produced because references to the storyline kept popping up in mid-decade books (when Fanpro ran the American line and German line. Not, as I am learning, that it improved communication one bit) but Americans had no idea about this whole Proteus/Nachtmeister/FBA/Ares thing. There was a naval battle that was described in SotA64 as the largest since Jutland (WWII) and no one outside of Germany had a damn clue what this was about. Hence the Shockwaves summary pdf. But that only covered the events of the campaign, a couple of books, and was all events after Nachtmeister got killed.

Seattle secession has been an issue in SR for twenty years, but it really only got treated as an issue by one author, although he had a hand in a lot of books. If I was to just make it a free city with no warning, people would shit. Beginning with Bull, the Missions developer whose current season is set in Seattle. So I am not saying it won't happen, but I am not ... I will just leave it at that.

[Frostriese]

It was a German campaign? Man, hazy memory. Allright, you sound as if you know such things better, hehe...
And I did not expect Seattle to secede, really. Only said it would not come totally out of the blue.

[FastJack]

As long as Brackhaven's in charge in Seattle, there's going to be a significant portion of the population that would stand against secession. If only to prevent him from declaring himself President (or Dictator, or King, or Emperor, or ...)

[Crimsondude]

It was a German campaign? Man, hazy memory. Allright, you sound as if you know such things better, hehe...

Maybe...

And I did not expect Seattle to secede, really. Only said it would not come totally out of the blue.

Absolutely. I am actually pretty adamant about SR not having anything come out of the blue like that. It's a dick move to the customers not to let them involved in such events.

[The Laughing Man]

Yeah if they were to go and change Seattle up too much right now it would mess with the material in the shiny new Seattle 2072 book.

I don't think they'd make any major changes to it so soon.

I haven't heard much about the NAN in recent canon. Their cities don't get much coverage in the books.
Hrm...
Time to start scanning 6WA for clues.

[raggedhalo]

Absolutely. I am actually pretty adamant about SR not having anything come out of the blue like that. It's a dick move to the customers not to let them involved in such events.

...I'm not sure it would be straight out of the blue, though, for all the reasons I've given; secession was being talked about in Runner Havens and Emergence, and gets a look in during 2072.  It's an ongoing political issue in Seattle, surely - or at least, that's my reading of the books.

I do agree that Shadowrun shouldn't do the crazy stuff ("Tir na nOg declares itself an ork-only nation!") where all the buildup happens off camera, because that would be totally ass.  I'm just not sure I agree that secession would be out of the blue.

That said, I'm not attempting to convince you or anyone of what should go into future releases.  Just stating my reading of the existing material.

[Stormdrake]

Did I miss something in the newest releases?  Whats up with Ghostwalker that a Renegotiation of the treaty of Denver is in the works?  After all Denver is GW's fiefdom.