[AJCarrington]

Definitely more and more common for TT miniature games (Privateer Press just did for Warmahordes), but not nearly as common for TTRPG, I don't think. Of course, that is likely the result of different business models where the miniatures are the main cash/revenue driver vs the books/rules.

[prionic6]

I'd pay money for a reference-style collection of the rules cleaned from all fiction, shadowtalk and stuff like that. Maybe even something like a rules database. I think the ratio of fluff to crunch in the books is mostly a matter of taste. More important for me is the way it's organized, and that leaves a lot to be desired.

[adzling]

Hey AJ I may be wrong, it's just guesswork on my part by looking at the state of the product.

I would write a letter to them directly if I thought it would make any difference, but I know it won't as many, many people have said the same thing as myself far more eloquently over the past couple of years and yet little has changed.

Moreover the litmus test is how they treat their paying customers. Judging by their lack of response to people missing products they ordered directly from them months later that you helped resolved on these forums it's pretty clear that Catalyst is asleep at the wheel.

It's a shameful waste of the freelancer talent imho.

To ALL:

Just a friendly reminder...to keep it friendly.

@adzling - appreciate that you're frustrated with the "current state", but comments suggesting the people don't "care" are just wrong. None of us are privy to the inner workings, though at times we get glimpses. Given how strongly you seem to feel, I suggest you contact CGL directly.

[AJCarrington]

Hey AJ I may be wrong, it's just guesswork on my part by looking at the state of the product.

I would write a letter to them directly if I thought it would make any difference, but I know it won't as many, many people have said the same thing as myself far more eloquently over the past couple of years and yet little has changed.

Moreover the litmus test is how they treat their paying customers. Judging by their lack of response to people missing products they ordered directly from them months later that you helped resolved on these forums it's pretty clear that Catalyst is asleep at the wheel.

It's a shameful waste of the freelancer talent imho.

I DO understand...have expressed similar sentiments and comments in the past. However, a lot of people out a lot of hard work and efforts into the products...to imply they don't care is unfair, IMHO. Perhaps it was simply the way I read them, but, at times, some of your comments seem to  come across rather sharp.

The issues related to the online store...those drive me to distraction, There is only one issue still open, that I'm aware of, and if not already addressed, should be soon. When something goes wrong, it takes far too long to address. Loren mentioned this was an issue that CGL was aware of at GenCon and that they were looking to take steps to address it. Time will tell.

[odd]

With regards to an SRD I've been wondering why more companies haven't tried it. I've bought more pathfinder books to support Paizo for that reason alone.

[adzling]

You're probably right about this, it's borne of frustration.
Srun 5e could be so much better if the editing of content and layout were the focus.

at times, some of your comments seem to  come across rather sharp.

[Wakshaani]

With regards to an SRD I've been wondering why more companies haven't tried it. I've bought more pathfinder books to support Paizo for that reason alone.

Of course, the SRD isn't Paizo's ... it was WOTC's. Paizo just made Pathfinder off of it and wound up striking gold when D&D 4th failed.

So, you're giving financial support to the wrong people in this case. (Mind you, I like some of Paizo's stuff! Just like keeping teh record straight.)

[ScytheKnight]

As someone completely new to Shadowrun and GMing a game to boot I actually really like all the fluff... helps me flesh out the world.

But Table of Contents... seriously just... fix that shit.

[tytalan]

Like I was saying the books need to be both player and GM friendly that means that there needs to be a good amount of Fluff.  The two in one book ideal will not work because it is too costly.  I play minie’s and there is a big different between one book a year and 6 to 12 a year.  Privateer Press and the others make their money on the fig’s not the books so they can sell at cost or even at a lost and when you break a book like that in to 2 you almost double the cost before the case or folder most come in.  Also there is a strong trend in the industry to move away from GM’s book because you at best only sell 1/6 the number of book and it discourage people from Gming because they have to buy extra books when the books average 40 buck a pop.     

[DeathStrobe]

The problem is that the fluff doesn't sell. Having the crunch subsidize the fluff, is something I'm 100% okay with.

With that said, Data Trails is terrible and I really hate that book. I don't think fluff and crunch need to always align, but it sure helps a lot when it does. DT has too many things in the fluff with no rules or clearly break the rules, and that's a core book and not a novel. I can sometimes handwave problematic stuff I read in novels like Frost and Fire or Dark Resonance where a host can fit in a box, which clearly breaks the rules and can't be done, but whatever. But it's really annoying with DT, the book ABOUT the Matrix breaks its own rules in the fluff.

The fraggin' Matrix... It's really annoying that it as a rule system still doesn't work and that people have no idea how it works.

[gradivus]

The problem as I see it is that the books go all over the place with the fluff and the rules.
For my sanity I wish for two thing's...
All the fluff up front followed by the rules- no intermixing.
And secondly, don't hide rules in fluff.

[adzling]

Yeah I hear ya, the fluff is driving me crazy, especially when combined with the poor state of editing.

I wish they would just, for once, focus on the darned editing and getting that right and stuff the fluff.

But that won't happen as fluff is cheaper to write than rules (fluff is just shovelware fan-fic after all) and the line editor seems to fancy himself as a novel author and judging by the product that's where his focus lies.

I wish he would curb his bad fan-fic obsession and focus on writing clear rules well play-tested and edited.

But, considering they can't even get their customer service together that's pie-in-the-sky wishing.

The caveat to this is that their product have improved somewhat with the last few outings, however they continue to shovel so much fan-fic into their product that it's detracting from the useable content.

Plus the fan-fic is often contradictory and outdated by the next publication's fan-fic "continuing" the story....sigh.

[MijRai]

Adzling, would you please stop being derogatory and insulting to the people who make the game?  Please?  It's all you seem to do, and it is rude.  If it weren't for the writers and editors, you wouldn't have anything to bitch about in the first place.  Yes, there are flaws in their product, and it needs to be fixed.  Saying they need to 'put down the crack pipe' is going to far. 

P.S.  Since it is officially published, the short fiction sections in the book aren't actually fan-fiction.

[falar]

Adzling, would you please stop being derogatory and insulting to the people who make the game?  Please?  It's all you seem to do, and it is rude.  If it weren't for the writers and editors, you wouldn't have anything to bitch about in the first place.  Yes, there are flaws in their product, and it needs to be fixed.  Saying they need to 'put down the crack pipe' is going to far. 

+1. I thought about posting the same general thing calling Adzling out on that egregiously bad behavior, but I decided it wasn't worth my time.

[adzling]

Errata for their horrifically edited products after a year+ would go a long way towards showing the company cares about it's customers.

I have respect for the freelancers, which I have said repeatedly in the past.

It's the management that is doing a poor job.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said they have to curb their addiction to cheap fan-fic?