[Zweiblumen]

Sorry about the delays, I was sick yesterday and catching up on work today.  Been trying to get the little things up.  I'll have a post by the end of the day.

[rednblack]

Chino's attack has: AGI (4) + Unarmed Combat (6) + Tae Kwon Doe Spec (2) + Charge (2) + Flying Kick (1) - Wound Penalty (2) = 13 dice
Flying Kick: 13d6t5 4

Base DV is 12P -4AP.

[Zweiblumen]

Attack: 7 (8 ) Sleaze: 5 Data Processing: 4 Firewall: 6
Decryption, Signal Scrub, Hammer, Agent

Tec: lemme know if you want me to edit out the part about sending the "map" I can see that being too much data even for a complex action.

[Tecumseh]

Looks like we're ready to move onto CT2 IP3.

9 - Katsina

Katsina sees the laser shot and figures that someone will take care of the van. (Besides, she's got relatively little she can do to it. Stabbing it seems unproductive.) Likewise, there's relatively little she can do to the drone. As Doc Hack is still a threat that she can address, she'll try to take him down.

Free: Move and shout (mostly for RP)
Complex: Astral combat vs. Doc Hack

Astral attack: Willpower 5 + Astral Combat 3 + Spec 2 + Focus 2: 12d6t5 4 hits

Doc Hack defends: 2 hits, choppity chop!

Hack has to soak 8P + net hits = 10P. Hack soak: 1 hit

Katsina finds Hack gloating over taking Sam down and makes him pay accordingly. Hack is at 9P with a -3 modifier.

An OOC note on Katsina's shout. In Sperethiel, "Telegit thelemsa" is a greeting that literally translates as, "You strictly follow the laws of nature." The suffix that Katsina added ("-ya") is a negator, so the expression now literally means "You don't follow the laws of nature" which is also, figuratively, the opposite of a greeting (or, to put it another way, "piss off!").

Next
Doc @ 7
Ace @ 6

[Malevolence]

Is Katsina within melee of Doc Hack, or can you use Astral Combat on anything you can see? I had considered it but thought it wasn't possible because of range and was going to try Banishing again, but if Ohanzee can astrally attack DH from where he is, considering Kat's damage that seems the safer bet.

[Tecumseh]

Katsina's nowhere near Hack; she's using Astral Combat as a ranged attack. Here's Ryo's interpretation when I asked him about it last year (via PM), which I've been using ever since:

Since Astral Combat is done with Willpower + Astral Combat skill, I personally don't think it is restricted to the typical limitations of range and movement. You're attacking with your mind, after all. Even if you have a weapon focus, you don't swing your weapon at the enemy and roll Blades, you're still rolling Astral Combat while perceiving.

This prevents silly things like an astrally projecting mage hovering 100 meters above a dual natured critter or adept and just pelting them with spells while they swing their limbs helplessly at them, unable to hit them. As long as you have LOS, you can make an Astral Combat attack on a creature that is astrally active, even if you're miles apart or restrained. Weapon Foci just make your attacks better.

I could write a long post about Astral Combat but the short version is that I like Ryo's interpretation both for crunch reasons (it's a mental attack) and also for balance (protection for dual-natured entities that can't cast spells).

[Malevolence]

That ruling works for me. I fully agree, but was thrown off by the whole "there are no ranged weapons in astral space" thing, though I guess if everything is ranged (LOS), then there just isn't a practical distinction between melee and ranged.

Under this interpretation, however, the Heal spell (as an example Touch Based Mana spell) should either be re-categorized as Physical (which would prohibit it from working on non-materialized spirits or astrally projecting mages - i.e. recategorizing breaks stuff) or you have to allow that there are SOME "melee" ranged effects in astral space (where the specific over-rides the general case) so that Mana Touch spells still require touch, even with LOS on the Astral. Though, it might not be terrible if Heal was actually ranged (LOS) in the specific case of healing an astrally active entity, but touch only for healing mundanes or those not actively astrally perceiving.

[Poindexter]

Though, it might not be terrible if Heal was actually ranged (LOS) in the specific case of healing an astrally active entity, but touch only for healing mundanes or those not actively astrally perceiving.

Yall are starting to get into some interesting shit here.

[Tecumseh]

I think a lot (maybe even most) people take the "there are no ranged weapons that function in astral space" line to mean that astral combat is more akin to melee than ranged combat. I take it as a restatement of the "there are no ranged magical weapons, period" concept. (Technically a gun could be magical, but only for pistol-whipping people.) But, naturally, the book is damnably vague. "Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat." Does that simply mean attack roll then defense roll? The rules never mention a soak roll, but I give one anyway. Do combat modifiers apply? Are there charging attacks, interrupt actions, or called shots? "Oh, maybe Street Grimoire will clarify it once it comes out." lol no.

Balance-wise, I like astral combat being ranged because it makes it less niche and guards against some broken scenarios, like the ones Ryo pointed out. From a fluff-perspective, having astral combat be melee would only be practical for projecting magicians. Anyone merely perceiving, and limited to their physical body, would be hopelessly outmatched by a being that can "move almost at the speed of thought." (The astral "walking" rate is 100 meters per Combat Turn.) That would make astral combat completely nonsensical for barghests, hell hounds, ghouls, sasquatches, or anything else that couldn't astrally project. Worthless skills are worthless, so let's go with the interpretation that makes them not worthless.

I'm not sure that interpreting astral combat in this way requires spellcasting to be similarly re-envisioned. They don't use the same attributes nor the same skills so I don't necessarily draw any equivalence between them.

[Malevolence]

Technically, they are still outmatched since most of those paracritters don't have the Astral Combat skill either. Considering that, it seems more prudent to actually make AC melee only and disallow Mana Combat spells to be used at range (i.e. they all become Touch). This then requires any Astral entity to get within melee range of a paracritter to attack it which then gives the paracritter the chance to fight back. Once you remove spell sniping, it solves itself.

[Tecumseh]

Hmm, you're right, they don't have astral combat do they. But making astral combat melee-only doesn't solve the problem of critters not having the any skills to defend themselves (or, more accurately, counterattack) astrally unless you rule that dual-natured critters can used Unarmed for "melee" astral combat. That is how it worked in 3E:

Astrally perceiving characters and other dual beings use their normal physical Attributes, skills and Combat Pool in astral combat. Dual beings must move on both planes together, including spirits in physical form. They cannot be in one place in the physical world and another in astral space. Thus, they are limited to their physical rate of speed and Initiative.
...
Use the melee combat rules to make attacks. The character may attack using an armed combat skill if armed with a weapon focus, Unarmed Combat if not, or Sorcery in place of either skill. Even characters who cannot cast spells (like adepts) can use the Astral Combat Specialization of Sorcery for astral combat.

3E is actually fairly explicit about astral combat being melee-only and not ranged. The wording is much clearer than what they used for 4E and 5E. It still doesn't solve the "assassinated by spells from projecting magicians floating above you" issue, which would require a fix like Malevolence suggests. Hmm, I'll sleep on this.

[Malevolence]

It does actually work that way in 5E:

When astrally perceiving, you become dual-natured (meaning you have presence in both the physical and astral planes simultaneously) and can interact with astral objects, including through combat.

So paracritters can attack any astral creature they can reach. If you remove range, then they can reach anything that can attack them.


Now, this wouldn't preclude anyone from sitting out of reach and watching them - they could be perfectly safe until they decide to attack.


And, of course, sniping from out of range isn't something you couldn't do anyway in the meat world. A helicopter and an assault rifle, or a levitate spell and a fireball. Either way, you can almost as easily attack the paracritter without it having much chance of retribution - though many of them have some ranged weapons in the physical world (paralysing howl, petrification, and so on), so it could be significantly more challenging after all.

[Tecumseh]

I think it's a stretch to take one line out of the Astral Perception section and take it to mean "astrally perceiving dudes can use Unarmed Combat instead of Astral Combat to punch fools in the astral." It might be a valid interpretation, especially given the precedent of prior editions, but in prior editions the Astral Combat skill didn't exist except as a specialization. It's hard to know how much the developers intended to roll up under Astral Combat the skill.

I like the astral combat = ranged attack interpretation because it's an attack of the will, and what does distance matter to willpower? Conversely you could ask "well then why do weapon foci work?" and that would be a valid question. (The answer, of course, is "magic", hurhurhur.) If you think of them as a weapon focus, channeling will, then it helps from a fluff perspective. Maybe that's a bit too magic-wand-y for Shadowrun, but we already have those with power foci so there are parallels for it.

We're off-topic. Just in case anyone forgets where we are:

CT2 IP3
Doc @ 7
Ace @ 6

[rednblack]

Ace will:
Free: Comm team
Simple: Take Aim
Simple: Fire Laser at Bulldog
AGI (9) + Lasers (8) + Smartlink Wireless (2) + Huge (3) + Take Aim (1) - Wound Penalty (1) = 22 dice
No Called Shot, as it's effectively a -7 die penalty.
Pew Bulldog: 22d6t5 6
Base DV 7P -10AP, staged to 13P with hits.

Hopefully, that will take out that last bit of the Bulldog's Condition Monitor.

Ace is at Lancer Ammo 2/10, Edge 0/4

[Zweiblumen]

Is the drone running silently? Or can Doc see it in the matrix?