[ScytheKnight]

Well, I've not played the previous editions... but the overwhelming response seems to be that 5th Ed Matrix is vastly faster and more integrated from previous editions... so perhaps they didn't want to push things too far?

I kinda get what you're saying, but frankly it's the kind of thing that isn't going to change before 6th Ed... sooo, perhaps look into ways of dealing with what you've got to work with?

[Xenon]

In the meat world you almost always need a direct line of sight.

In the matrix you almost never need a direct line of sight.

Maybe you are supposed to spot and mark your target while he is riding the elevator - not when he step out of it...

[Jack_Spade]

A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."

[Miri]

A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."

Or we could just, you know, make Matrix Perception a Simple Action like it is in the meat..

[Xenon]

Or we could just, you know, make Matrix Perception a Simple Action like it is in the meat..

Roll an AI and have Matrix Perception as a Free Action

[Triskavanski]

Really? Might just have to make my next hacker an AI

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Really? Might just have to make my next hacker an AI

I'm still confused with your point, pretty much in its entirety. If you want to have multiple passes per Combat Turn than go VR. Of course then you would have to deal with the Hosts Firewall since you won't be running with the team but safe far away. Adding a Multidimensional Coprocessor Module would get you an extra +1d6 to all Matrix Initiative. An Agent would be running in VR so it would get at least 2 if not 3 passes per turn. You can spend ¥70,000 for a Gunarm to shoot as good as a gun bunny.

Basically there are a vast array of choices that undeniably prove how dumb your point is.... why continue to say it? Your obstinacy in the face of many different people's helpful advice on your lack of understanding  on what you should be doing & how to be the most effective while doing it is remarkable.

[Triskavanski]

Okay, the reason why you’re confused is probably because you don’t realize that you’re still  running on about the same initiative counter as street sams with 3 ranks in Wired Reflexes. If they have 10+4d6, and you in VR have 10+4d6  on average you’re going to have the same number of initiative passes. Now the street sam however doesn’t need to make complex actions to see who is around. He can just see them.  Then he can start shooting them. More of his actions are based in Simple (Half turn) or Free (An action you can take every turn), while yes a few are complex actions (Full turn). For the matrix side of things however, everything is pretty much a complex turn, except for a few things like changing your current virtual reality level. (AR, CVR HVR) 

Putting a +1d6 isn’t enough to give you a pass that meat world can’t get. It does help, but only a very slight amount, in terms of just making your curve a little bit higher.

Even if the agent/sprite can share their perceptions into you, you’ve still got to go through at least a round, if they’re running silent. Possibly more, depending on how well you can do “That one there.” It kinda also gets the point of why do you even do any hacking at all, when the agent is almost as good as you?

Becoming a Diet-Sam isn’t desirable. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand that some characters don’t want to lop off their arm to go get a robot one. Like Technomancers. AIs can’t even use cyberware (But according to Xenon they can do their perception tests a lot faster). Notice how the Decker archetype isn’t loaded up with a bunch of combat oriented cyberware? But the biggest thing that seems to be missed here, is that it doesn’t matter how much cyberware you put into your guy for physical combat. It does nothing to increase the speed of your actions in matrix combat beyond skill wires for AR to reach the level of VR hackers.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

And you think the ability to see through walls is immaterial because??? You can see them from farther away than the Street Sam giving you a huge lead time!!! You can search the entire building from the the front door... you can search the building before you even go in!!!!! You are complaining about a situation your own ineptitude as created... if the first time you are scanning for "Silent Icons" is when you can see the actual people then you have failed at your job. So again... your point is dumb. Matrix Perception tests have no range nor barriers except Noise or Faraday Cages. Hijacking the security camera feeds should let you know where every security guard in the buildings physical location is so that you can start searching precisely there immediately. Dropping a Mark on them long before any actual combat takes place is easy... remember the 7 Ps, Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

[Herr Brackhaus]

A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."

Funny, that's how I'd play AR hacking. If you can see a device that is not running silent with your meat eyes, you can hack it. Same thing with icons in VR; as long as they are not running silently and they are withing 100 meters, you spot them automatically.

The appropriate street samurai comparison would therefore be when the street samurai is attempting to shoot someone he can't see, because they're invisible, or sneaking with concealment, or some such. He'll first have to identify the person or object by making a perception test. I'd wager the reason Matrix Perception is a complex vs physical Perception (Observe in Detail) being a simple action is because there's just more information in the Matrix. Millions of icons vs easily identifiable people or drones. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Triskavanski]

And you think the ability to see through walls is immaterial because??? You can see them from farther away than the Street Sam giving you a huge lead time!!! You can search the entire building from the the front door... you can search the building before you even go in!!!!! You are complaining about a situation your own ineptitude as created... if the first time you are scanning for "Silent Icons" is when you can see the actual people then you have failed at your job. So again... your point is dumb. Matrix Perception tests have no range nor barriers except Noise or Faraday Cages. Hijacking the security camera feeds should let you know where every security guard in the buildings physical location is so that you can start searching precisely there immediately. Dropping a Mark on them long before any actual combat takes place is easy... remember the 7 Ps, Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

You do realize that not every time you are going into a guarded compound where everything is static? In a perfect world youd never need to have any sort of combat. The problem does crop up when you got all the time in the world, like in the meat world, watching a building from a distance.

Its when shit hits the fan. Like you know, ambushes. Even if you are radar pinging everyround, a car with speed four could easily get from outside your 100m radius, to twenty meters in just one combat turn.

You cant really do any planning for that.

Again, the slowness of matrix actions doesnt show up when you have enough time to compensate for it. It happens when you don't.

[jim1701]

I have to say that this is also one of my chief complaints about the Matrix in 5th ed.  Far too many matrix actions are complex actions.  I can understand the limitations when AR hacking but when VR hacking you should be free of the limitations of meat space but having so many actions be complex and therefore limited to one action per initiative pass really belays that impression IMO. 

Having said all that a hacker can counter some of these limitation IF the opportunity exists ahead of time to get prepared.  This also assumes that it is possible for the hacker to take covert action ahead of combat without alerting the potential targets. 

[ScytheKnight]

And you think the ability to see through walls is immaterial because??? You can see them from farther away than the Street Sam giving you a huge lead time!!! You can search the entire building from the the front door... you can search the building before you even go in!!!!! You are complaining about a situation your own ineptitude as created... if the first time you are scanning for "Silent Icons" is when you can see the actual people then you have failed at your job. So again... your point is dumb. Matrix Perception tests have no range nor barriers except Noise or Faraday Cages. Hijacking the security camera feeds should let you know where every security guard in the buildings physical location is so that you can start searching precisely there immediately. Dropping a Mark on them long before any actual combat takes place is easy... remember the 7 Ps, Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

You do realize that not every time you are going into a guarded compound where everything is static? In a perfect world youd never need to have any sort of combat. The problem does crop up when you got all the time in the world, like in the meat world, watching a building from a distance.

Its when shit hits the fan. Like you know, ambushes. Even if you are radar pinging everyround, a car with speed four could easily get from outside your 100m radius, to twenty meters in just one combat turn.

You cant really do any planning for that.

Again, the slowness of matrix actions doesnt show up when you have enough time to compensate for it. It happens when you don't.

Yes well ambushes are when the dreck hits the fan for everybody... even a street sam can't shoot back if the ambushes have decent sneak checks, good cover and firing silenced weapons and thus no-one can poinpoint their locations to return fire. It's even going to take a mage 2 IPs to start doing anything, assuming they can summon. a complex action to summon the spirit and then wait for the next IP to command it to assist them in the fight. Sure they can recklessly summon, but in that sort of situation they're probably going tor a big spirit, close to, or even over their magic rating making reckless summoning an extremely risky preposition.

Basically you're taking the worst case scenario and saying that's why things are bad.

[Triskavanski]

Im not even going that far at all. Im going with suddenly surprise combat starts! Time becomes crucial.

That mage can start doing stuff immediately on his first ip. Stuff like making physical barriers, summoning spirtits, buffing his allies, activating counter spell, blindly throwing fireballs. They could even use a simple action to observe in detail then reckless spellcast a spell. Take a free action to go "oh fuck!" All of which dont need the mage to lop off an arm and pick up a gun arm so they can shoot.

With a decker, or techo, you cant really do much of that.

[ScytheKnight]

Mage places physical barrier, team mates can't shoot back.

Summoning a spirit, takes a complex action.

Observe in Detail to start throwing spells back, need to find them first!