[Triskavanski]

Mage places physical barrier, team mates can't shoot back.

A relatively non-issue. In your example, the targets couldn't be easily found in the first place, thus preventing you from shooting back. So doing something that causes you to be unable to shoot back, when you already couldn't shoot back, results in you still not being able to shoot back. But It does allow you to be able to have just a bit more time to perform the perceptions needed.

Summoning a spirit, takes a complex action.

You had mentioned something about reckless casting it. But yes. Yes summoning a spirit does take a complex action typically speaking. And? Its something you can do, without needing to know were the targets are, that yes, you'll have to command next turn using a simple action.

Observe in Detail to start throwing spells back, need to find them first!

Remember of course, that in the meatworld, you generally get an automatic perception test against stealth. So typically, you're already one action over what it is in the matrix. Then if you still don't see them, you can make two perception tests an IP. So thats Three perception tests, by the time the Matrix guy gets one. Doesn't matter who you are, you could be some unaugmented jerk, you're going to have more perception tests in non-vr than the VR.

Nevermind of course that AoE spells don't need Line of site to a particular enemy, just to the central location you're gonna detonate it.

[ScytheKnight]

That's assuming you pass a surprise test and can take any actions to begin with.

[Triskavanski]

you fail the surprise test, you just take a -10 to your initiative and can't do a free action before hand. You can use a point of edge to negate the loss of the free action before hand.

This would be both for the Meat and Matrix. You'd also only fail it if you failed your free perception check.

[ScytheKnight]

Still, what I'm getting at is that as an archetype that excels at making preparations before, or even on the way to a run... you're crying foul at how useless they are in a worst case scenario where they can't prepare.

[Triskavanski]

That is, well, because its the time when time matters.


If you're idly sitting on white sand beaches, drinking a mai tai, The matrix actions could take a minute or more to preform. It honestly wouldn't matter. An hour might be pushing it though, but you could go pretty dang high on that. In the end, it doesn't even matter how fast the matrix moves. But there is a reason why deckers don't hack like this isn't there? Something about pluggin your deck in a host slaved thing. You know, Direct connections. The reason why you'd be running with the group.

There is a reason why there are a bunch of wireless bonuses on items. It isn't for you know.. looks. It was there to have something opened for someone to do a bit of hacking on Right?

There is a reason why they've included  blurbs in data trais 179 on hacking during combat.

I'm not even on about it being "the worst case scenario" I'm on about it being one of the more common scenarios. Surprise combat is a very common occurrence. It doesn't even have to involve one party sneaking around either. Just has to involve something going sideways, and lets be bloody honest here, when does something ever not go side ways? It might not be orbital laser cannon from space targeting you sideways, but things go bloody well sideways most of the time.

Like some beasty starts running atcha and there is a door between you and it. While the rest of the team pulls out their guns and spells, you, the matrix expert guy, cannot use your main focus to block the beasty, unless you happened to hack a random door. Maybe the door is silent. Then thats a complex action to spot it, And if Xenon is right, then it would be at least one. Then a complex action to mark it. Then maybe a complex action to close it.

As Zhoul has pointed and yelled about multiple times, that drek is slow sauce. Its better to play a diet-sam and just pull out a gun like everyone else with your gun arm. No other archetype really has to abandon their forte like a hacker does. Yes. Even a face doesn't, cause that face could pull out leadership and boost everyone's ability up, while not really focusing outside his specialty. Or he could be a mage or an adept and have some spells, or use adept powers like commanding voice to lay down the law.


And honestly, its pretty simple to make the matrix user able to affect the combat more easily with his specialty. The Matrix. By you know, decreasing the time it takes to perform basic actions, like Matrix Perception.  Maybe Hack on the fly/Brute force even.


Note that with Matrix Perception - If you're the hacker, and you're suppose to be watching over everyones gear, and everyone has a gun, commlink, car, glasses, and ear piece (let along whatever else you have. ) and there is 4 of you.. Thats 20 icons to look over.

[DeathStrobe]

A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."

Funny, that's how I'd play AR hacking. If you can see a device that is not running silent with your meat eyes, you can hack it. Same thing with icons in VR; as long as they are not running silently and they are withing 100 meters, you spot them automatically.

The appropriate street samurai comparison would therefore be when the street samurai is attempting to shoot someone he can't see, because they're invisible, or sneaking with concealment, or some such. He'll first have to identify the person or object by making a perception test. I'd wager the reason Matrix Perception is a complex vs physical Perception (Observe in Detail) being a simple action is because there's just more information in the Matrix. Millions of icons vs easily identifiable people or drones. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Oh man! They should have totally had blind hacking in Data Trails! No need to spot your target, if you think it's there, make a hacking action with -6 and use int instead of logic. I'm house ruling that. That's cool as hell. It gets past needing to spot your target. It's only reliable for characters with high dice pools. And it means when you're running silent, you shouldn't dump your firewall.

[Xenon]

You need to spot targets that are hiding in meat world before you can act on them, same as you need to spot targets hiding in the matrix before you can act against them.

You automatically spot targets that are obvious in meat world same as you automatically spot all icons on the vicinity (within 100 meters or within the same host) that are not trying to hide.

We used to have a situation where you spend a lot of time resolving matrix actions (you had to devote a lot of  scene time to the hacker). If you make actions take half the time in the matrix then you automatically also give them twice as much scene time.

They might or might not have gone to far.
They might or might not have gone far enough.

If you feel matrix perception should be a simple (or even free) action, house rule it. Shrug.

.... go VR. Of course then you would have to deal with the Hosts Firewall since you won't be running with the team but safe far away....

Once you have a single mark on the host you can access all the slaved devices from within the host. This give you a direct connection (just like if you had used a physical cable to the device).

You’re still  running on about the same initiative counter as street sams with 3 ranks in Wired Reflexes.

I get your point, however;
Since you can't get WR3 at chargen (due to availability) most sams will not run around w WR3 (217,000¥ is quite a lot of cash post chargen).

[Triskavanski]

Well, you could if you took the right thing. And often the ones you're really competing against, don't really go through character generation since they're the baddies who wanna make ya'll into swiss cheese.

The other problem I've noticed is if you've got a team of people,each one running 4~5 wireless enabled items (Many will have more) With being able to do only a single matrix perception test per ip, per item, in a team of 4, it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.

Of course there are somethings I've wondered as well, such as the Matrix action Send Message, and if this is a simple action like it says in the matrix actions, or a free action like it kinda says in the free actions area, for sending off short messages.  Are you only able to transmit simple text messages or can you "speak". Its something a bit glossed over sometimes, but if you can only use the send message, and it is still a simple action, then your ability to communicate with the rest of the team slows down pretty badly.

Honestly a few things that could help with doing the matrix stuff in combat, which has been the intent of reducing the man in the van, adding the illogical wireless bonuses, and a number of things that they've said in the book, would to reduce a handful of the matrix actions to simple, and some to free, if certain conditions are met. Like being in VR or running a particular program, or just by being a technomancer.

I mean, they've got that multiprocessor one like you've pointed out, that makes matrix perception and observe in detail free actions. (Unless the test is an opposing test) and adds in one more free action for them. That is a pretty big jump in matrix speed I'd have to say, being able to do at least 2 a round while doing anything else.Possibly up to four if you're able to trade up actions. (Using a simple action to do a free action) Or 2 free perceptions and 1 complex action perception to look at the hidden icon.

[Xenon]

...it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.

Or you know, you could just check if there is a mark on the PAN icon......

(when a hostile hacker place a mark on a slaved device he will automatically also mark the master device in the PAN).

Of course there are somethings I've wondered as well, such as the Matrix action Send Message....

A few gestures or one short phrase take only a free action. You can also speak a short phase as a free action via the matrix if you for example have an open live feed to one or more personas (think team speak).

Short messages normally take a simple action (but only a free action if you have DNI and a direct connection (cable)). Sending files or images and commanding your spirit, sprite, agent or autopilot (multiple autopilots if you use RCC) is also a simple action. Connecting one or more personas to a live feed over the matrix take a simple action as well.

A whole paragraph worth of text or audio is normally nothing you can do mid combat. It take as long as it take to say. A combat turn is 3 seconds... However if you have DNI and a persona then you can do it over the matrix as a simple action (even in AR).

Commanding a hostile agent or autopilot take a complex action and a mark on the owner (Spoof Command). Technomancers might have the power to command any device or persona (including IC) as a complex action (Puppeteer).

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

...it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.

Or you know, you could just check if there is a mark on the PAN icon......

(when a hostile hacker place a mark on a slaved device he will automatically also mark the master device in the PAN).

Look at Xenon.... he's such a good guy, still trying to help someone who obviously doesn't want to learn why he has such a hard time with the Matrix. When you do the worst possible choice of actions, then it will always be rough for you Trisk. When you start doing smarter actions & planning ahead you'll realize what a dream this Matrix is in comparison to the mini game it used to be all on it's own.

[Triskavanski]

...it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.

Or you know, you could just check if there is a mark on the PAN icon......

(when a hostile hacker place a mark on a slaved device he will automatically also mark the master device in the PAN).

Ah Right. So just gotta check the tops first, then work you way back down. I suppose the spider could also keep checking for marks on the host before looking at the devices connected to the host to catch a predator, which might be a reason not to go hacking too early..

[Jack_Spade]

Actually, looking for marks in your PAN is a waste of time if you don't have to maintain marks of your own. Just periodically restart your devices. And since you should base your PAN on a high rated commlink and not your cyberdeck, even marks shouldn't be a problem.

Or to phrase it another way: "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

[Triskavanski]

Aye. Its part of my beefs with how easy it is to thwart a hacker, both Hackers against you and hackers on your team.

I'd also like to bring attention to something else as well with the matrix actions taking so long.

Puppeteer.

As far as I know without a special quality, there is no matrix actions that are free actions.
There is only three simple actions (Jackout, Change Icon, Check overwatch score)
The rest are all complex actions or variable. I honestly don't know if you can use puppeteer to do a variable action, logically you should be able to if its a simple or complex action.

[Xenon]

Control Device

You only need one hit to Puppeteer a door to open.
(And you don't need any marks to do it either)

[SpellBinder]

Control Device

You only need one net hit to Puppeteer a door to open.
(And you don't need any marks to do it either)

The door in question resists Puppeteer with Willpower (or Device Rating if no one is attending to the door) + Firewall.  Assuming it's an unattended "Residential Security Device", you're likely looking at 4 dice in opposition, an average of 1.3333 hits, a Force 3 Puppeteer to ensure an average roll gets you that 1 net hit, and having to resist 7 Drain to do in one action what a hacker will do in two.