[FST_Gemstar]

I'll copy over my possible argument for one-handed gun using full stats of cyber forearm from the cybered-technomancer thread.

...What if we take the cyberlimb concept further. Cyber joints are cooler than meat ones. They can spin, twirl, bend, in ways that physical ones cannot. This may look awkward, but what if instead of holding out the pistol at arms length, you could keep your elbow tucked in and hold your arm in more of a V shape with your elbow pointing down. Holding your upper arm more vertically puts less strain on it and it is braced by your trunk. With a cyber forearm, you could bend a cyberwrist so that it [and the forearm] both takes a lot of the strain itself when shooting, and has the range of motion to aim and shoot (instead changing aim from the shoulder). Sure it looks a little goofy and unnatural and less intimidating, but isn't that the thing with cyberware? 

And, if cyber forearms replace the elbow (not sure if they do), even more range of mobility without activating muscles closer to the core (upper arm, shoulders, back, abs, etc.)  is possible. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I do want to explore the range of possibility of cybermovement, especially enhanced cyberlimbs.


My other analogy comes from being a piano player. When I use my fingers to play piano, muscles in my forearms do a lot of heavy lifting as the muscles that control finger movement are linked to these forearm muscles. This can be problematic sometimes when there is frantic finger movement, and you can find your fingers just can't move so fast even though they themselves don't feel worn or tired, but your forearms are. If I replaced my hands with cyberhands, I would imagine that my cyberfingers would be able to act more independently of the muscles in my forearms, because they are better. They could even bend and twirl (even spin at the wrist if they replaced the wrist), and would allow me to play music with dexterity without tiring my forearms. Taking this analogy further, I would imagine cyber-forearms could bear more strain and function more independent of my upperarms than typical forearms, especially with appropriate bending.

[Reaver]

I get what you are saying and, yes, it would be cool if the joints of the cyberlimbs did that and worked that way. But we just don't know. They have never really given us a huge write up on all the functions and movements of a Cyberlimb. All we know for sure is that they are a limb that resembles a "humanoid" limb. Which is not really much to go off of ( and is not even that complete of a description as you could get "Raptor" legs in previous editions)

Which again is why all we have to go off of is the loose descriptions in the CRB pg 454-455, and GM fiat.

Xenon, as usual, did a great job of breaking down the written rules, but there is still some room for interpretation (which is why there is a GM). Find what works at your table and go from there.

[Rooks]

Sorry always think of cyberlimbs as mechanical arm drones so if you hit it with enough electrical damage it will stop function I suppose the limb could also act like a faraday cage and force the electric charge away from the limbs electronic mechanical components towards the users meat body which is then resisted course then it would be straight body resistence test cost wise its 50% discount on buying bioware/muscle replacements

[Reaver]

Sorry always think of cyberlimbs as mechanical arm drones so if you hit it with enough electrical damage it will stop function I suppose the limb could also act like a faraday cage and force the electric charge away from the limbs electronic mechanical components towards the users meat body which is then resisted course then it would be straight body resistence test cost wise its 50% discount on buying bioware/muscle replacements

Well, they mention that cyber arms are "plastics, synthetics, and polymer compounds" (4e Augmentation book). Strictly speaking, these have a high resistance to electricity..... Much higher then your meat body, so an electrical discharge would be more likely to leave the arm alone and fry the meat instead. (of course, this depends on where the strike happened, how much cyber between the point of strike and the meat.... etc etc etc... and part of the reason why SR doesn't use hit tables... thank god!)

[FST_Gemstar]

I would like to think that stats are simple simulation of more complex real abilities. Having an Agility of 1 or 5 or 9 are more than just numbers. While inconsistent between characters, they should have meaning beyond a number. Especially the difference between stats below natural limits and augmented stats that raise them to superhuman levels. When you are getting passed the natural highs of agility and strength, I would expect to see unnaturally agile and/or strong limbs/abilities.  This could mean cool movement, flexibility, power (augmented strength 11 hands that can flick a quarter across a football field or something unnaturally cool. What if your in melee/grapple and you can get your strong plain cyberhand with razor nails near someone's face, could a flick be more damaging than a punch? How cool!.) I mean, cyberlimbs now have unique functionality that typical limbs do not, so I would expect that limbs in the future that can be enhanced well beyond more natural abilities to reflect that a bit in gameplay. It doesn't have to be all-powerful, but just better/cooler/more interesting than typical abilities.

Hehe. I vote for forearm stats on pistols! :-)

[FST_Gemstar]

Also, I  realize you can't get a plain cyberhand with Strength 11, but you all get the idea!

[Reaver]

I hear what you are saying.

I think part of that is that people choose to see just the number and not what is represents (there is an post touching on this very issue going on right now too).

Everyone goes "it's a 3, that sucks!" or "You need 1,234,1023,300,102,100.002 dice or you're not effective"


That is simply not sure. A 3 in a skill is Competent (You're skilled at basic operations but struggle with complex operations and "tricks") <that's right out of the CRB>
Combine that with a 3 in an Attribute (with is, BASELINE, MIDDLE OF THE ROAD, EVERYDAY JOE... or as I put it, the average)

So.... that means that the "average" person in their field is throwing 6 dice for the things they are expected to do on a daily basis, on "average".

So when you start seeing things on Characters like 8s or 9s or even higher, yes these are truly exceptional compared to the "average" Guy (especially if this is from just one side of the total skill pool).
After all, if the "average" shooter is throwing 6 dice, and a character with Agility 9 is throwing 12 (9 agility, 3 skill) already that exceptional stat has doubled the pool. Which means he has potentially doubled the achievemtn of the "average" guy.


BUT. That is not what people see, they see that the 9 Agility guy got just 1 more success over the "average" guy and say "But it should be more!!"..... and that is because they are seeing it as just a number.

Look at it an other way:

Bob has been going to the range for weeks now, and has been firing off over 200 rounds a week in practice of his pistols skill. Today he is going for his test. Bob is your average guy... plays a little sports on the weekend, but mostly likes his TV. (Agility 3) His time at the range has made him competent in the use of the gun. He knows where the safety is, he can load it with ease, clean it proficiently and take generally good care of the weapon (skill 3). On the day of his test, he stands before the target and the judge, takes his time and fires off his 10 rounds. (rolls his dice: 1 success for each shot)

When the Judge goes up and grades the target and comes back and tells Bob that he scored a 125 out of a possible 500. More then enough to pass, but nothing overall exceptional.

John has been going to the range for weeks now, and has been firing off over 200 rounds a week in practice of his pistols skill. Today he is going for his test. John is your average guy... plays a little sports on the weekend, but mostly likes his TV. however, John lost his primary arm in a accident a few years ago and got a Cyberarm. (Agility 9) His time at the range has made him competent in the use of the gun. He knows where the safety is, he can load it with ease, clean it proficiently and take generally good care of the weapon (skill 3). On the day of his test, he stands before the target and the judge, takes his time and fires off his 10 rounds. (rolls his dice: 2 success for each shot)

When the judge come back from grading the target and tells John he scored 270 out of a possible 500. Well more then enough to pass, and places John a little above what the Judge considers to be a "skilled" skill. (Because the same could be achieved by someone else with more training, and not just a really steady and expensive arm)

After 40 years of running the shadows Machinegun Kelli has decided to get LeonIzation  and go legit. He decides to put his Years of pounding the shadows to good use as a private detective, and needs to pass the pistols exam for his concealed Carry and Pistols Permit. Now, Kelli's favorite weapon is the Assault Rifle (He wasn't called Pistol Kelli, you know...) but after 40 years in the shadows, Kelli used a pistol more times then he likes to admit. (skill 6) Thanks to his Cyberware and combat mods, there is very few more nimble then him (agility 9). On the day of the test, Kelli shows up, fires off his 10 rounds (rolling his skill pool of 15. getting 5 successes each shot)

When the judge comes up to him he exclaims that Kelli got a perfect score! 500 out of 500! The judge is amazed, and tell Kelli that in all his years as a judge, has he seen someone come in and score a perfect score!

****

but all most people see is

1
2
5

and say, "well those guys that got 1 and 2 just suck. and the guy that got 5 is barely average!"

No. The guy that got the 1 was "average" the 2 was much better, and the 5 was exceptional!

Part of this is just a number thing (especially if people are coming from other systems like DND where a huge number means more) and some of this is probably the GM not using descriptors that reflect the achievements of the player's rolls VS that of the "average" person and more likely comparing the player's rolls VS those of other "Augmented" people.

And yes, "shadowrunners are not average people" I know this. You know this. But they are surrounded in a world OF average people.... unless of course the donut baker has a baking skill of 10 and a Logic of 8 (for his really good $3.99 per dozen donuts. Or the Gas Jockey has a Agility 8 and a Gymnastic skill of 5, you know, in case he has to do a double back flip handstand somersault to avoid some gas back slash.....

[FST_Gemstar]

I love your thought exercise and description of average folks (and the not so average baker and gas jockey)!

Rules and numbers are there to help simulate complex real life issues into a game, but yes, lets also take time to think about the meaning of these rules/numbers and interpreting them as our stories unfold!

[Lodestar]

Hey, guys. Thanks for the replies.

It seems my mindset from years of D&D caught on me. I've seeing this part (gear) of the game as in a plain D&D game, where you just add the iten and it adds to your character a bit more of power.

I should come to sense to realize that a simple cyberhand wouldn't lend it's strength alone to an attack using a sword or something similar.

Back then I used to play vampire the masquerade and Shadowrun "sounds" similar to that, isn't it?

I am the GM, btw, and I've always wanted to GM a shadowrun game, but my friends never had the interest on it. Some even say they can't figure out a game where the characters use fire weapons.

And just to clear something out. I understood the capacity limit for the cyberlimbs and the augmentation, but I still didn't get something. There are two numbers like a X[Y] the number between the [] corresponds to the augmentation, right? But isn't an augmentation to increase the arm status already?

And what is the limit for augmentation? The game says if you go beyond your augmentation, you can't wear/use the arm? I suppose it's due the heavyness of it.

And let's say a Troll. He bought an arm, the arm is str/agi 3, right? He can have a max of 10, right? So he should augment the arm with 7 to both str and agi. Wouldn't that go beyond the capacity of the limb? So a Troll can't have a superduper mechanical arm?

And, holy shit. Talking about Trolls. Don't they have to pay 100% more for these kind of things? So a Troll wouldn't easily start with such a thing at the beginning of the game, right?

And don't worry about the high numbers I'm placing in my examples. I just want to figure it out. Surely I'm not trying to be a powerplayer.

[Tarislar]

If you engaged common sense it would be clear that firing a firearm requires your entire arm at the very least to lift, aim and fire.
If you turn off common sense anything is possible.

Although given the low recoil and lightweight of a light or hold out pistol I would allow you to use it with a cyber forearm.

Personally, I don't see how a fore arm would help in shooting anything, Your forearm is both a lever and a rotation point, as a Lever it is controlled and moved by your upper arm. As a rotation point it allows both sweep and angular movement. while I could see how the ability to sweep would help in some firing situations, I don't see it helping enough to make a statistical difference in a fluid, non static combat situation. Fast draw sweep shooting (standing rooted in one spot, and sweeping the gun side to side at the same elevation) MAYBE. but running, dodging, jumping ducking AND shooting (like most combat situations) I can't see it at all.

I'm thinking a good compromise option for Partial-Arms & Pistols is to treat them the way Full Arms (x2) & Rifles/Melee is done.... IE. Average it.

So a Partial Rt. Arm (ForeArm) with Natural-Agi-3 & Augmented/Enhanced-Agi-9 firing a Pistol is averaged at Agi-6.

This seems, to me, to be a good compromise to the "Partial is Gimp v/s Overpowered" issue.  And matches the way its handled for 2HD items.

Thoughts?

[Herr Brackhaus]

Tarislar
I'd agree with that interpretation. The book gives you three options when dealing with cyberlimbs; use just the limb, average all limbs included in process, or use the weakest attribute amongst limbs.

Averaging a forearm with the rest of the arm seems like a solid compromise if you're firing a weapon one-handed.

[FST_Gemstar]

Tarislar: I would count all Pistols with the cyber-forearm, average bigger other one handed ranged weapons (Small than assault rifle automatics, maybe one-handed melee.), and rely on natural agility for two-handed weapons.  Full cyberarms get to use their stats on one handed melee and ranged weapons. I'm sure there are melee maneuvers where the attack is not "led with the cyberlimb" like a spin or lunge/jump that do not require averaging.

 Though I do see how cyber-forearms can be seen as cheap and I'm not staunchly opposed to a ruling of averaging the whole arm,  I would give some leeway.  As written, the rules allow one cyberarm using a one-handed weapon to rely only on that one cyber arm stat no matter the combat situation. As Reaver put it earlier, most fights have fluid combat sequences involving  "running, dodging, jumping ducking AND shooting."  No self-respecting shadowrunner during a fight is just standing still with a katana just windmilling it around over their shoulder calling themselves a badass street sam. But according to the standards we are holding cyber-forearms, windmilling around a weapon on your shoulder hinge is basically the only kind of fighting that a full cyberarm could use its full stats on. SMGs may be more complicated, as some have foregrips and folding stocks that may use a second hand (and in real combat I bet many would be tempted to touch with their second hand everyone now and then), there are plenty of one-handed of SMG users who use a full stat from their cybearm precisely because their cyberarm is better than their physical one and can pull it off.

[Marcus]

Tarislar
I'd agree with that interpretation. The book gives you three options when dealing with cyberlimbs; use just the limb, average all limbs included in process, or use the weakest attribute amongst limbs.

Averaging a forearm with the rest of the arm seems like a solid compromise if you're firing a weapon one-handed.

I disagree for one handing pistols. I'd be fine with that for melee.
The issue I have is if you go with that, then what are you doing with a Cyber Hand?
Are you going to just average that? If so then there is no reason to ever get half limb.
If you pay half the cost you should get half the benefit.

[Herr Brackhaus]

A full limb costs 15,000¥, a lower limb costs 10,000¥, while a hand or foot costs 5,000¥. For hands you could just as easily divide by three instead of two when averaging. A full limb replacement counts for one limb, a partial replacement counts for 1/2 a limb, and a hand counts for 1/3 a limb.

[gradivus]

My 2 cents which ain't worth the two pennies I'm comparing it to...

You really need your whole arm to fire a pistol, though I might allow you to average out the cyber-forearm with your natural agility.

But Herr Brackhaus is right that this is a GM ruling situation and so should discuss it with him.