[gilga]

Much better tactically.

[gilga]

@Jack - I would not allow to target specifically the engine to disable the van. It is an internal part and to be able to one shot stop any vehicle seems overpowered to me. You could disable the car if you are to go under it with some mechanical skills or a grenade (and then you'd better get out as well).

[Jack_Spade]

Hey, you shot my bike to hell as well. 
And the rules explicitly state this as a fact. And in reality it's pretty much the same: Shoot the engine block to disable the car completely.

Just as a reminder I am using APDS which is pretty much meant to do shit like that.

And finally: I'm fighting alone against a fucking army - do I really, need another handycap

Edit:
Here the relevant text from R&G: p.115

"VEHICLE
You can target different parts of a vehicle in the same way you’d target parts of the body. Pick a vulnerability, then see if you can take it out with a single shot. See the Vehicle Called Shot Table for modifiers, DV limits, and effects of Called Shots on vehicles. Note that the effects only kick in if there was damage done to the vehicle after it makes its Damage Resistance Test."

[gilga]

I've read that I just find it absurd that you can one shot any vehicle in the game an assault rifle. I have no problem with any of the other called shots  but a shot that imminently knocks out a vehicle any vehicle seems way overpowered to me. Damage resistance: 22d6t5 5.
Let's get on with it for now and please forget that it exists for the future as this called shot makes an assault rifle able to one shot every possible vehicle in this game.

Okay the combat will go like this:
First round: There are three Mafia goons (one of them is the one that told you about the drop to begin with) in the car and two Shadowrunners outside of the warehouse.
In other rounds more combatants will join the combat so you better be on the go.

Reciever:
1. Adept    - Initiative: 13+4d6 31
2. Muscle  -  Initiative: 10+3d6 21

Giver
1. Initiative: 3#8+1d6 12 11 14

Order is:
1.  Adept 31
2.  Kynos 21
3.  Muscle 21
4. Goon_A - 14
5. Goon_B - 12
6. Goon_C - 11

Since the adept and Samurai missed you on perception check and you did not target any one of them but a vehicle without a driver. I'll allow you to shot he vehicle as a free action that opens combat, a full automatic burst will definitely expose you. So no stealth for now on.

So first the physical adept acts what he does is throw a grenade inside of the van and takes cover behind the van.
throw: 17d6t5 4 This will
Damage reistance: 2#14d6t5 4 6
so Goon A and Goon B take 6 and 4 damage. (stun) Perhaps more as the explosion is in close quartets but I do not want to over think it.

[All4BigGuns]

I've read that I just find it absurd that you can one shot any vehicle in the game an assault rifle. I have no problem with any of the other called shots  but a shot that imminently knocks out a vehicle any vehicle seems way overpowered to me.

I have to go with Jack here. What's the point in having rules if they're not going to be followed? That is the problem with the whole "rule zero" thing, IMO--it basically renders any and all rules pointless.

[gilga]

Well ...
There are rules in SR that I do not want either because I feel that they were never seriously play tested or even considered seriously.
Generally one shot bang I win  are things that I do not like. So no mind control is very difficult to cause someone to suicide and turn to goo and other spells that 'kill' instantly I do not want at this table. The same goes with a called shot that disables any sort of vehicle instantly as it is poor design and bad writing.  You deserve mechanical beasts that  challenge you. Being able to one shot any sort of vehicle regardless of HP is similar to the 'you die' spells  - and I do not think that these things mesh well with the rest of the rules as they can potentially make many things unwise to do.

[Mulcarn]

As long as were on this subject of rules - Can we ignore the multiple instances of damage from grenades and similar explosions while in close quarters rule?  I was never a big fan of chunky salsa.  I mean, 10+ damage is already a lot.  Why am I getting hit with it 5 times in a row?

On a side and completely unrelated note - Spirits add half of their force as exploding dice when being oversummoned.  Here's a little obscure rule from me to you.

[gilga]

I just did for blowing up a grenade inside a van.
When over summoned spirits will use their edge to reroll failures likely killing the mage.

[Jack_Spade]

I'm confused.

I said I shot the guards at the door not the newcomers. Did both of them survive?
Throwing a grenade inside the just arrived car seems to be contra productive if you want to collect the money/DemoX (And just to be clear: I assumed that the buyers just arrived and that DemoX is inside a crate somewhere inside the warehouse - which was another reason I didn't want to start a firefight inside)

[gilga]

so let's roll it back and I'll let you think.

There is a group of shadowrunners that is about to accept DemoX and deliver payment. This is the info you got.
DemoX should be in the van.

[Jack_Spade]

Hello!!!

I asked why both men at the door are still alive and kicking after I SHOT them.

The engine disabling is the action after that.

[gilga]

Hold on - you can't do both, if you shoot at them I roll surprise and the stuff and they are unlikely to be surprised.
You operate at initiative 21 for your first action (you could have shoot the car before or not).  what is this action?

[gilga]

Okay I understand wherre the problem is -

You moved outside, ambush + shoot in a single post I told you during the time you change your position the van arrived.
So you do not yet set your ambush, you are sneaking outside of the warehouse as we speak. This only how far I moved you from inside/outside. You did not yet get into position and aim and so forth I will try to be more clear about these things.

1. DemoX should be in a van where a few Yaks are going to sell him to some Shadowrunners. (that may actually whack them instead of paying up).
2. The van arrived as you changed positions from inside to outside - before you could set up an ambush.
3. The runners should be a lot for Kynos to handle they are not Yak goons and have spread sheets. (I took the stats of my old table top team).  So I am not sure that Kynos can whack them all on his own - I certainly did not plan for him to need to do so.

[Jack_Spade]

Ok. Fuck me over with your sense of timing if you must.

But you know, there is only a certain limit up to where problems are solvable.

If I kill the car, the goons kill DemoX, if I try to kill the guards you give them a surprise test (whatever for I ask, since you already compared their perception to my stealth) to foil my attempt. Than you probably send the car away.

I stand by my decision to shoot the guards. My primary objective is to rescue DemoX. It's better if he is carried away - again.


And now I have to rant a bit, please don't take this personal, but:

[spoiler=WHAT THE FUCK DID I DO WRONG?]I really, really tried my best to go into this game as a team player. I might have created a homicidal maniac, but mainly because on the outset it was advertised as a zombie killing game. All my interactions with other PCs where highly restrained to enable an enjoyable common experience.

But the last time we had something approximating a team play was after getting the mage back from the interrogation room. Since then all your efforts seem to be focused on keeping all characters in single adventures.

And mine seems to be a little piece of hell, where nothing my character tries is allowed to succeed. First you take away a central contact that would allow me to modify my equipment to react to the changing situations.

You have a fire spirit possess the ability to possess the earth itself! You also make them be ideal espionage tools, giving your NPC perfect information on what my character will do, even before he knows it. And as if that's not enough, this magic NPC has also her own Rigger retainer, ready to chuck HE grenades in a highly populated environment where by her own rules know one is supposed to die. Not to mention an army of clones. Even her wooden shrine is impervious to a molotov cocktail. But whatever, after all you also have nanobot AIs who can read peoples minds and enslave them. You have NPCs that can banish PC's souls to other realms.

But for some reason, disabling a car engine with very expensive ammunition is overpowered. Oh and pepper punch of course. Yet there seems to be no problems to allow mages to overcast Fireballs and use all the other mentioned exploits.

And now this last complication: This timing stinks. Just as I am about to go about solving my situation, you decide to send in the next complication and deny me to instigate my plan even though I declared it before you.

I won't even mention the fact that the warehouse seems to be populated by prime runners who can afford to station a combat adept as guard outside (Magic is rare in Seattle my ass!)

This really is no longer fun for me. It's tedious. I can't use tactics, I can't achieve any of my objectives. The only thing I can is fail.

So please tell me: WHAT DID I DO WRONG?
Did I displease you? Which course of actions would I have needed to have a chance at success?
Should I have killed every NPC at first sight to avoid the problems I have now? Because honestly, that is the message you are sending here:

I could have killed Venom, but your actions implied that you needed him for your story, so I let him live
I could have taken Winter hostage and killed afterwards to prevent being captured, but I didn't want to roadblock your story, so I didn't
I could have started a massacre at Strawberry's place and ignore Sovereign's capture, but instead I tried to rescue him
I could have done the smart thing and laid low until my wounds are healed, but I tried to be active and push the story forward
I could have just shot the guards as soon as I saw them, but I wanted to try and be professional by scouting the perimeter

It really seems as if killing your NPCs before they can say something is the only way to prevent you from making the situation worse.

[/spoiler]

[gilga]

1. About grenades I am not sure how much you read the thread but you should know that the Strawberry lady of passion is sort of a show that she puts in order to conceal the Yaks power center, an underground bunker that allows them to monitor everything in the city.  So you are going into a place that should be very protected.

They did not put that in some fortified building they hid it in plain sight. So security is pretty serious and the Strawberry no weapons show goes up so far. When it does not work they use what they have.   You humiliated them in their turf and there is nothing Strawberry could do about it but these grenades barely scratched you so I think it was appropriate danger level.
If any - the one person that did not try to kill you was Strawberry you triggered a spirit with service to protect this area and you damaged the most powerful mage in the game currently without any retaliation from her.  Because unlike the Yak's she is really pacifist - emotionally unstable but pacifist non the less.

The spirit that 'possessed the ground' was mainly for fluff if any it gave it mechanical disadvantages - again you took it out of the game with a single gunshot. I am not sure why you felt so bitter about it.  It was a not very powerful spirit even that I am not even certain would have pierced your armor.

I am sorry that you come so frustrated about a combat where Kynos did brilliantly and what took him out was bad drug aftershock. Despite the grenades the spirits and massive light fire. I thought it was his moment to be a super bad-ass. Had he known more he'd try to raid the underground bunker to get Maxwell.

I agree that banishing to other dimention is going over the top - but I wanted to prepare for Maxwell's initiation and it seems like a nice opportunity to keep him occupied instead of waiting for a long time.  I'd anticipate that it will motivate him to seek help from his mentor to break the bound. (or to make a deal with a vampire?)

We can disscuss a lot of things and I hope that you feel less frustrated and enjoy more because eventually I do try to set the threat level to challenging but not killing.

3. Surprie test is not perception test, combat sense always guarantee surprise test, and well you'd also be happy to have one should the circumstances be different. I am sorry that it feels impossible to you.

What I planned is that you'd understand that tackling the people in the warehouse is not feasible - they are runners and skilled and you are alone - but they are going to kill the gangers (inside the warehouse so there are no witnesses and with a jammer so no crying for help) the gangers must also be on edge so my original solution was you'll understand that 5 runners is too much for this time and simply get to your car and fire a shot at someone, the gangers will think they were crossed and runaway the people in the warehouse will have a hard time following them (they are in an ambush in the warehouse and have no coms and it will leave you enough time to handle 3 gangers and take DemoX. (perhaps the adept or Sammie will manage to jump on the van - but even then they'll be cut off from the rest.)


or you can try to kill them all but it should be difficult with chances of that going either way and you are alone (perhaps if you brought Athos?) So I was thinking that Kynos would not go for THAT wounded and alone.


With anything said - and seriously I just want you to have fun. I feel that Kynos is currently the strongest PC and is also one of the scariest things in this world. If any I feel that I need to work hard to challenge kynos because bringing 10 goons will not threat him. It has to be professionals... 

P.S about the comment about over casting vs shot to the engine I'd say that Kynos is doing like 16DV -6 without drain so combaty I think we're cool. The engine shot just makes all cars unreliable - if you really want it sure no problem just remember that this also apply to the cars you yourself drive. I feel that it is bad game design to present a shot that disable the car next to a shot that 'drops the speed by 1'  or make a window stuck.  it obviously was not play tested/balanced and regardless of magic to me it feels like bad game design. I mean I'd want at least the big cars to be difficult to stop by force, but I don't feel that strongly about this as nobody is actually rigging in this table.