[Mr. Grey]

A regular running group would be against 5-8 on average, 9-10 on the outside. Again are the hosts at that level equal of a challenge for the starting decks we're looking at?

A deck with a limit of 2 isn't going to be much use against something with a dice pool of 6 to defend, which would be getting 2 hits on average.

Edit - Do yourself a favour and just play a Technomancer at Street level.

A regular running group would be against 5-8 on average, 9-10 on the outside. Again are the hosts at that level equal of a challenge for the starting decks we're looking at?

A deck with a limit of 2 isn't going to be much use against something with a dice pool of 6 to defend, which would be getting 2 hits on average.

Edit - Do yourself a favour and just play a Technomancer at Street level.

I'm afraid having you dictate to any group I happen to GM does not further the discussion, nor does it disprove my point.

Looking at the rules and the lists, even a halfway decent decker can get a respectable pool, at least equal the pool of the host. Where the problem seems to lie is the number of dice kept by the host and the decker respectively. The host naturally gets to keep far more than the decker at any level. Thus, would it not be more effective to adjust the host attributes downward to make the decks more viable rather than play with the costs of the deck?

[Darzil]

The GM can absolutely do either. I am simply stating the rules as written, I am not trying to dictate anything (and would not write these rules, as I disagree with them).

The limits are an issue. Generally in Street, Technomancer has much higher limits than a Decker, in normal play usually slightly lower, and at Prime Runner lower still. This is because Technomancers are limited by Attributes, which are constant on all three, whereas Deckers are limited by Resources, which vary greatly.

Pool is completely unaffected by Deck.

The lowest rating host, rating 1, by RAW, if Firewall is it's highest stat, will be defending with 5 dice. However, you can choose whatever you wish in your game. One of the nice things about the Matrix is that usually only one character is messing with it, so you can set the difficultly to them, rather than having to worry about balance with the rest of the characters.

Personally I think all Decks should start with higher attributes than 1-2, 3 or even more as minimum. The reason for this is that having limits of 1 or 2 on your prime skills is incredibly limiting. There is only one weapon in the core rulebook with accuracy under 4. The only limits even close to this low are on Drones and Vehicles for Pilot and Sensors when Rigger not jumped in, and those are arguably not prime skills as they aren't for the character.

[Hobbes]

Mmm, charts. I'll be chewing on THAT one later.

On a related note, while we discussed the fact that Samurai need multiple bits of gear, but Reflexes are key, so too do Deckers operate better with some extra goodies. Not as much as a Samurai *needs* them, but, relatable.

Which brings up the second, hidden, cost... skills. A Samurai can get by on just a handful if they must, and those same skills (A gun, a melee, sneaking, spotting, etiquette) are ones that everyone needs, but a Decker has a range of skills that they HAVE to have, which is a secondary cost to the mechanical (deck) one. How should this effect the overall cost, if at all? (Yes, design theory can go a bit meta here.I trust y'all can run with this!)

Sleazy Decker can get by with Skills C.

== Active Skills ==

Computer                   : 6 [Matrix Perception] Pool: 14 (16)
Disguise                   : 2                      Pool: 8
Electronic Warfare         : 6 [Sensor Operations] Pool: 14 (16)
Etiquette                  : 1   (Karma)           Pool: 2
Hacking                    : 6 [Hosts]              Pool: 14 (16)
Hardware                   : 1     (Karma)             Pool: 9
Locksmith                  : 1       (Karma)   Pool: 9
Palming                    : 2                      Pool: 10
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1   (Karma)    Pool: 9
Pistols                    : 6 [Revolvers]          Pool: 14 (16)
Sneaking                   : 2                      Pool: 10
Software                   : 1     (Karma)    Pool: 9

You can also get there by putting 2 Group points into Electronics and putting 6+8+10 karma into Computer up to 5 if you want to free 7 skill points for other stuff. 

Can be done, compromises, required, but Skills C is about as low a I think I can squeak by.   

[Tecumseh]

Might want to shuffle a point or two for Perception, but the overall point holds.

[tytalan]

When I make a decker attributes were always my 3rd priority resources and skills being a & b not necessary in that order unless I was running a meta human.  Maybe I should redo Doc Holliday my Dwarf decker from 3rd edition?   

[Wakshaani]

My Generic Runner right now is a human with 3 in all attroibutes (200 Karma), Pistols 3, Unarmed 3, Perception 3, Etiquette 3, Stealth 3 (60 Karma total), 20,000 in gear (10 Karma), and 30 Karma on Misc. skills (Computer 1, Pilot Ground 1, a language, some knowledge skills, etc) ... so, 300 Karma to start with.

I'm rolling 200 Karma into "You must hit this bar to enter your archetype" attempts, but they're *very* loose right now with teh Decker, for example, sporting +1 Logic, +1 Intuition, Hacking Group 3, Electronics 3, and some other lil' goodies. 200 is what I needed to make a functional (not good, but *there* magician, so it's working out as my baseline just to see if all the general roles can be worked with. Those with an outsized demand are things I'll wanna fiddle with for the Far Future. Got a ways to go yet.

[Hobbes]

Might want to shuffle a point or two for Perception, but the overall point holds.

Electronic Warfare = Perception essentially.  P. 445 under Sensors you can use EW in place of Perception when using a sensor.  So as long as you've stuffed a helmet full of sensors, got a Drone, or a handheld Sensor body you can sub EW for Perception. 

[Whiskeyjack]

What's with Pistols? You're unlikely to have a great AGI unless you build for it, and auto fire options help compensate for worse dice pools.

[Wakshaani]

Pistol is the default Shadowrunner weapon, IMHO. Strong enough to drop Metahumans, concealable, lots of options ... it's just dang handy. Mages, Deckers, and Riggers have it as a main weapon, Sammies and Weapon Specialists carry it as a back-up ... it's just all-around useful. It covers legal weapons, like tasers, and restricted weapons, rather than restricted and forbidden, so you can be found in public armed and it won't cause a scene... it's just the all-around option of balance.

[CitizenJoe]

IMO, it should have been broken down into pistols (one handed firearms) and long guns (2 handed firearms ).  Automatics wouldn't be a firearms skill, but rather a recoil compensation skill.  I'm not 100% sure on the math, but replacing the strength related natural recoil comp with strength + automatics test, like an assistance roll seems like it would work.

[Hobbes]

Automatics > Pistols >>> Longarms.  IMO.   Automatics and Pistols are somewhat close.  Pistols are sneakier and legal, Automatic Rifles are harder hitting but not always polite to carry.  SMGs, Machine Pistols, and Heavy Pistols are all close in mechanical performance and work as everyday carry weapons.  It is basically do you want an AR for your heavy load out, or do you want to be able to stuff a light pistol away.  I'm guessing that'll come down to character/table preferences.

Longarms is really only for 'runners with multiple combat skills.   

   

[Wakshaani]

Automatics shouldn't exist as a category, IMHO. Pistols and Longarms would do, but there needs to be a third in there for "firearms". I'd be tempted to stick heavy weapons in there as the other, but, not sure. But that's a tad off-topic, so.

[Hobbes]

Honestly the whole skill list should be trimmed considerably IMO.

Firearms, Athletics, Biotech, Close Combat, and Engineering gain nothing from separating into individual skills and are essentially a trap for new players to fritter away skill points.  Honestly "Outdoors" skill group could be merged too, and nobody would notice. 

Something like "Inspire" could take the mechanical functions of Leadership and Performance skills.  Do you really need a separate skill for Disguise and Impersonation?  I question a lot of those "Secondary" active skills, Forgery, Free-fall, Animal Handling.  Could some of those be Specializations under some other skill?  Could they be merged with similar skills to get an Active skill on par with the more commonly taken skills?  Could functionality be added to a skill to make it better?

The main skills that need to be kept separate are the decking, technomancer, Social and magic skills as those are balance factors for those Archetypes.  But even in those skills there could be some minor consolidation.  Banishing?  Decompiling? 

Yeah, anyway, for 6th edition hopefully   : )

[Halinn]

One of my personal theories is that the Impersonation and Performance skills only exist as a reason to split off Con from the Influence group.

[Whiskeyjack]

Pistol is the default Shadowrunner weapon, IMHO. Strong enough to drop Metahumans, concealable, lots of options ... it's just dang handy. Mages, Deckers, and Riggers have it as a main weapon

Short range, limited firing options, low damage, low inherent AP. I don't see them as good for anyone except maybe pistol adepts.

Mages, Deckers, and Riggers have it as a main weapon, Sammies and Weapon Specialists carry it as a back-up ... it's just all-around useful. It covers legal weapons, like tasers, and restricted weapons, rather than restricted and forbidden, so you can be found in public armed and it won't cause a scene... it's just the all-around option of balance.

I'd always carry an MP over a pistol.

Longarms is really only for 'runners with multiple combat skills.   

Longarms got muuuuuuch better with the addition of Hardwires.