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Open discussion thread: How much should a Cyberdeck cost?

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falar

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« Reply #120 on: <12-01-15/1725:05> »
I have to say I really like the idea of 'meltware' and other such one shot only programs. It really fits in with my vision of what the matrix and decking should be. I also think I could combine this idea with some of the others I'm working on for my house rules quite easily. Definitely food for thought there.

Meltware could seriously fix the Matrix for me and 5e is just striking distance from being super-fixed.

Beta

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« Reply #121 on: <12-01-15/1747:11> »
(Disclaimer: wall of text incoming, and you really don’t need to read any of it for any of the existing discussion.  It is all just background.)

For what it is worth, I even think the idea is within reasonable engineering probability.  Who knows what the technology of 2075 is based on (surely not silicon transistors!), but physics still says that working with information will create heat.  Heat will disrupt most systems eventually, and will outright destroy others. Current technology has the neat twist that as stuff gets hotter, there is more leaked current (on top of the working current), resulting in even more heat getting generated.  Technology is carefully designed to avoid the point of thermal runaway, because we don’t want meltware – but that doesn’t mean you have to design things that way.

At the same time, you could build an active cooling system which sucks heat away from the working area and dumps it into some heat sink.  The heat sink will radiate some of the heat away, but the whole point here is that meltware creates heat faster than it can be dissipated.  The active cooling keeps the working area at a non-destructive temperature for a while, but as the heat sink gets warmer the system can pull less and less of the heat away from the working area.  If your technology has a thermal runaway type mechanism, things finish with a flourish.  Even if you pull the plug early, the game can just say ‘the lingering heat doesn’t destroy everything instantly, but does enough damage by the time it has cooled down that the module is unusable anyway.

And finally, the test to make meltware could be hardware.  The concept is that you take a piece of programmable hardware, and convert your software program into it.  That is, rather than running a software program on a generic processor, you make a hardware program using a customizable module—that module now can’t do anything else, but it does its thing very well.  In current technologies it is much faster to run a program that is loaded into something like an FPGA (field programmable gate array), than running a ‘normal’ software program on a generic processor—but there are only so many applications where the cost is worth the performance boost.  We don’t know the future technology, but the same basic principle is likely to remain (that customized hardware is faster than software running on generic hardware, but more painful and expensive to make).  In theory you could manufacture a fully customized piece of hardware, rather than using a programmable one, but that would probably be vastly more expensive.  It could be used, however, to offer that  “availability 18, really expensive” option that players won’t usually buy, but is sometimes provided to them.

Sorry for going on at such length – I just kind of like it when real world concepts and useful game design can be made to line up to some extent, and this happens to be an area I know enough about to wave my hands about and offer an explanation.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #122 on: <12-01-15/1959:57> »
What you guys are looking for is an "exploit".  These are back doors and Trojans which others have put in place, but once used they get quickly patched. 

Stoneglobe

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« Reply #123 on: <12-01-15/2025:31> »
What you guys are looking for is an "exploit".  These are back doors and Trojans which others have put in place, but once used they get quickly patched.

This is basically what I was proposing with my custom host specific software design. The extended matrix perception test to identify the current weaknesses that you can then write a program to exploit. After 1 use it's gone as the sysadmin have identified and patched that particular weakness.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #124 on: <12-01-15/2036:46> »
Here's a related question for y'all:

Should there be a difference in how AR hacking and VR decking works?

 Mechanically performing specific matrix actions should be the same, I'd hate to learn two sets of rules for the Matrix.  I'd be okay if there were more advantages for a VR hacker.  Less Noise and/or the ability to "teleport" maybe via some kind of repeater network.  Essentially set the Noise penalty based on the distance from some node or whatever *or* your physical location and instantly (near instantly) move your matrix POV from Neighborhood to Neighborhood.  Possibly make a mobile version for a team to carry in.

As it is a VR hacker is Physically vulnerable as well as taking Mental or Physical damage for a smallish buff.  +2 dice pools, and possibly an initiative boost possibly not depending on other 'ware.  I'd like a VR hacker to be viable alternative to an AR hacker.  As it is, most VR hackers are really only valid for hacking hosts as noise penalties can quickly make it too dificult for the "hacker in the van" to be effective.  While I am a huge fan of AR hacking being the effective default option, I'd still like the VR hacker to be a viable choice since it's been a staple of the game for a while. 

FasterN8

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« Reply #125 on: <12-01-15/2117:32> »
     One thing our home game does to mitigate taking a VR-nap in the middle of a run/firefight is we allow a piece of headwareware that allows VR while controlling your body like a drone and some other minor benefits, so you can walk and talk (at a modest action penalty) while still being VR.  It's like a cross between a Simrig and a Control Rig.  Instead of shunting the body's sensory and physical nerve impulses, it captures and reroutes them.  You're still a zombie though,... = severely penalized defense options vs physical threats.   But admittedly, that's a slightly different tack than making AR hacking more viable, but it's one route to go. 

Personally, I really like the idea of giving AR hackers a boost in their action economy to make that tactic more attractive.
« Last Edit: <12-01-15/2248:33> by FasterN8 »

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #126 on: <12-04-15/0353:44> »
For AR/VR differences I think focusing sorta on what they're both good at is important.  VR should be the go-to for hacking the Host and devouring all the delicious paydata that might be inside.  "This encryption is DEEP - I'm going to need to interface with it a lot more directly if I'm going to crack this."  AR, on the other hand, should be more for spur of the moment stuff.  To that end, I could see AR being something like "device specialization" whereas VR would be "host specialization" or maybe a broader "network specialization."  Running AR you're going to be better at using the environment spur of the moment or taking out the placed minigun the troll is using to make everyone hide behind cover.  Running VR you're going to be better at grabbing their files, defusing data bombs, taking out their security - but also great at devices, so long as they're connected to your network.  Going VR isn't going to help when you're attacked by the Halloweeners and you see a nearby car and you want to just turn that sucker on and set it to ram them from behind, but likewise staying in AR won't do you any favors when you have IC running you down and you needed to gain access to those security breach doors two minutes ago when Firewatch announced their presence by taking out the your troll's kneecap.

It also works well with the idea of deckers not just being randos with a neat program they downloaded, but the folks who subvert enemy systems and spin them around to turn them against their masters.  Setting everything to the same network is fantastic and keeps the script kiddies away and ensures you're going to get that monthly bonus for keeping costs low by reducing the need to hire another one or two spiders - right until the night of the run, where that hot drek cyber cowboy spiked the spider's drink before hand and set the whole defense system against the HRT response.

FasterN8

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« Reply #127 on: <12-04-15/0850:37> »
Here's an idea...

How would it change the game balance to give cyberdecks (only) the benefit of a +2 bonus for hacking devices in visual range (limit 100m)?

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #128 on: <12-04-15/0910:49> »
That's sort of implemented in that beyond 100 m, there is a noise penalty.

falar

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« Reply #129 on: <12-04-15/0947:05> »
That's sort of implemented in that beyond 100 m, there is a noise penalty.
Except you can't move two inches without getting Noise reduction.

Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Signal Scrub? That's a noise reduction.
Second Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Satellite Uplink? That's a noise reduction.
Third Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Vectored Signal Filter? That's a noise reduction.
Fourth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Antennae? That's a noise reduction.
Fifth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Fresnel Fabric Clothes? That's a noise reduction.
Sixth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Decrease Noise Spell? That's a noise reduction.
Seventh Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Quiet echo? That's a noise reduction.
Eighth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Reciever commlink dongle? That's a noise reduction.
Ninth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
« Last Edit: <12-04-15/0949:00> by falar »

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #130 on: <12-04-15/0950:54> »
That's sort of implemented in that beyond 100 m, there is a noise penalty.
Except you can't move two inches without getting Noise reduction.

Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Signal Scrub? That's a noise reduction.
Second Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Satellite Uplink? That's a noise reduction.
Third Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Vectored Signal Filter? That's a noise reduction.
Fourth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Antennae? That's a noise reduction.
Fifth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Fresnel Fabric Clothes? That's a noise reduction.
Sixth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Decrease Noise Spell? That's a noise reduction.
Seventh Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Quiet echo? That's a noise reduction.
Eighth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.
Reciever commlink dongle? That's a noise reduction.
Ninth Datajack? That's a noise reduction.

Nine Datajacks? Well, bully for you, still only 1 point of Noise reduction. If each one stacked with each other, then it would specifically state that they do.
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FasterN8

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« Reply #131 on: <12-04-15/1002:45> »
Check the FAQ thread.  Aaron said they stack. 

I think it's completely dumb, but that's what he said.  And even you you don't use that legal cheeze, Falar's point still stands - noise reduction is way easy to come by (as long as you're not a technomancer).  And in all that he even missed one source - the Rigger Command console.
« Last Edit: <12-04-15/1006:34> by FasterN8 »

falar

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« Reply #132 on: <12-04-15/1005:31> »
Nine Datajacks? Well, bully for you, still only 1 point of Noise reduction. If each one stacked with each other, then it would specifically state that they do.
Nowhere says you can have more than one Smuggling Compartment, but people do it all the time! All the text says is that if you have the Datajack wirelessly enabled, you get Rating 1 Noise Reduction. It doesn't say anything about multiple copies not doing noise reduction.

It's a loophole that no sane GM would let anyone exploit, but my post was just to say, "Noise penalties are not really a factor if you do even a modicum of planning" and use my standard tongue in cheek method.

Let's not derail the thread!

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #133 on: <12-04-15/1015:42> »
I thought it derailed on page 1.

falar

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« Reply #134 on: <12-04-15/1026:17> »
And in all that he even missed one source - the Rigger Command console.
I actually considered it, but then I figured that a hacker wouldn't probably be using an RCC. However, had I added that line in, I could have listed a tenth line for Datajacks ...

A technomancer does get access to Signal Scrub, Quiet Echo, Decrease Noise spell, and Fresnel Fabric for noise reduction though. That's still a fair bit, especially considering that Fresnel Fabric is limited only by your cash.