[Reaver]

Between the Ex-wife and Bulldog....
hmmmm.... Save the Bulldog while waving goodbye as the Ex-wife dies! (Yes, I hate her THAT much)

True story.

Some local punks once kidnapped Reaver's Ex and sent him a text message from her phone saying pay up or we cut her into little pieces.

He sent back a message asking for hi res pics of the cutting up.

Then the punks sent another message saying pay up or they give her back.

Sadly before he could get the monies together,  the cops found them and brought her back. 

No.


I asked for high rez video. With sound.

anything THAT personally enjoyable I want to watch and hear repeatedly!

(I even offered to send them a spoon!)

[RowanTheFox]

Between the Ex-wife and Bulldog....
hmmmm.... Save the Bulldog while waving goodbye as the Ex-wife dies! (Yes, I hate her THAT much)

True story.

Some local punks once kidnapped Reaver's Ex and sent him a text message from her phone saying pay up or we cut her into little pieces.

He sent back a message asking for hi res pics of the cutting up.

Then the punks sent another message saying pay up or they give her back.

Sadly before he could get the monies together,  the cops found them and brought her back. 

No.


I asked for high rez video. With sound.

anything THAT personally enjoyable I want to watch and hear repeatedly!

(I even offered to send them a spoon!)

Any chance you could send those guys after my ex? I can't pay them, but I can supply snacks...and pie!

[Sendaz]

My point is that the definitions we have are based on a world where we are the only species that is sentient. Dictionary meanings change, evolve or even get dropped entirely as language is a living thing (normally). Right now those definitions say people = human but they say that in a world which has only humans, a few hundred years ago it probably said people = man because as far as the dictionary was concerned there was no need to be politically correct and say human because man was sufficient.

If I were arguing street vernacular vs word definition I would be pointing out it says HUMAN not metahuman which means that it is only HUMANS who count not elves, dwarves, trolls, etc. They may have been human once but aren't any more. You don't call them humans with pointy ears, short humans, humans with a skin condition do you? Yet your extending your definition to cover them because they used to be human or their ancestors where but the dictionary defintion is human only. If you call them an elf you call them not a person and thus not covered by any of the laws governing people. However I'm not, I'm just pointing out that street vernacular or word definition the term in our world is based on an entire history of their only being one intelligent race. That's not the case in shadowrun, there you've had elves, dwarves, shifters, dragons, centaurs, pixies for decades all of whom are not "human" and many of which were never human to begin with it seems to me that in that case the definition of "person" would change as well.

  Is now a bad time to bring up the old theory about how early UGE Elves and Dwarves were actually Changelings, swapped out for human babies by various Factions within the Faerie Court to infiltrate society while what we saw as Goblinization was really just reborn Fae-descendants re-emerging thanks to the rising mana?  So what some call metahumanity is actually a parallel, but separate set of species?

[Reaver]

Ahhh Humanis. Don't ever change

Humanis has lots little wonderful 'theories' over the years. I especially enjoyed the original arguments you guys used.

"Meta-humanity is a sexually transmitted disease"
●In a way that is true. All life is sexually transmitted.... its how life is formed outside of a lab! But I'm not going turning into a Ork by sleeping with one. Trust me..... tested that theory out.

"They are monsters with out souls!"
●First prove that *I* have a soul please... because I keep getting told that I am a soulless bastard by my ex-wife nearly daily. By my daughter every time I threaten her prospective boyfriends with a Control Actions induced removal of their Junk....

"If left unchecked, they'll over-populate planet, comsume all the resources and drive us all into extintion!"
● I would say you might actually have a point with this one, IF the tuskers didn't have such pathetically short lives and such a high infant death rate. Yes a female Ork can have up to 24 kids in a year. But many Orks can barely feed themselves yet alone 24 extra mouths. And there is the biology side... with only two breasts, that's not enough milk to feed 8 new borns at once... so many Ork families usually lose a couple infants before they can transition to solid food...
Poor little guys....

"Look at the size of a full grown Troll! Look at the size of their mouths! They could swallow your whole head!!!"
●? I thought that was a troll mothering technique! Kid freaking out? Mother mouthes the kid's head until it calms down... Seriously though, yes they are Big. I get that. But at least someone can get things off the top shelf without a step ladder. And if you ever need an engine carried, A trolls the man for the Job!


I may be apathetic towards metahumanity and the other freaky species out there. But I don't actively speak of their destruction. (Except Infected. Those monsters get a lake of fire.)
I also don't really care if they survive or not... I have my own problems to deal with.... like what is for dinner tonight.... Salmon or steak...


<edited because: On phone. It missed and misspelled words to the point that even I noticed.

[Sengir]

While we don't have the tech for bunraku, if you live in a modest sized city, just do a search for "body rub" or "massage Parlour" in your town..... same idea just no mind altering tech.

In other words, not the same at all. Bunraku is not voluntary sex work, but slaves turned into puppets.

Also, you completely missed my point: I didn't claim murder and sovereign citizens don't exist, I pointed out that "we take a rather dim view of things like" the aforementioned. IN Shadowrun on the other hand, it's between "yeah well, what are you going to do about it?" and what the PCs do for a living.

As for Apex pedators.... we are ok with them as long as we are on the top of the list.... but the infected are higher then metahumans simply because they EAT us as their SOLE form of food. That's were the problem lies there, we are no longer the Apex of apex predators.

Mankind has at all times revered wolves, bears, lions, and other predators as embodiment of strength and power, precisely because they can easily put you on their menu. On the other hand, I've never heard of a vulture shaman.

And metahumans are not the sole source of food. Ghouls only need a certain amount of metahuman meat, and they even prefer that meat to come from already dead "donors" (because they're lowly carrion feeders and not ferocious predators). Given that dead bodies don't eat any food and therefore don't meet your definition of "people", that shouldn't be anything you find objectionable

(Also keep in mind, for some countries, these things are not crimes! Prostitution is state sponsored in some countries. To the point that declining a sex work job disqualifies from unemployment payments and welfare! Looking at you NZ.

Oh, that urban legend has evolved from "in Germany" to "in NZ"? Good to know

Elves, dwarves, trolls and Orks are Persons and People because The UN, the WHO (no, not the band!), and even the Catholic church says they are (admittedly for the church, only after a mass revolt of the faithful).

"They are not people because we don't define them as people, we don't define them as people because they are not people"...sorry, that's a bit too circular to make a valid point...

[Reaver]

Nothing I daid you can't find without a little google-Fu Sengir.

If you think those women in many of those body-rub and massage parlours are there by choice, think again. Sexual slavery is a trillion dollar a year industry with over 2 million women FORCED into the sex trade against their will each year. Many of them end at such establishments. If that's not the 20th centery version of a bunraku parlour, i don't know what is.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/No-job-no-excuse-for-turning-down-sex-work/2005/01/30/1107020262141.html
Looks like it was Germany. My bad.



Yes we have. Especially the Native Americans. They also hunted those animals for food and clothing as well. Venerated the killer whale, eagle, raven, and other animals so much that form part of their mythos. And people travel thousands of kilometers, and entire countries for a chance to kill apex predators. And we as a species have fone a very good job of killing off things we find threatening...
Alligater Gnarr from US rivers.  The Artic Wolf. Grizzley bears, cougars (no not slang for middle aged women hanging out in bars... although those ones have been know to drag a 400lbs man off his barstool... and are never seen again) all animals that are on the endangered list due to overhunting, or state sponsored execution.


You last point makes no sense. Care to try again...(me thinks you talk yourself into your own corner).

A few posts up you'll find the dictonary definitions of the words People and Person.

They both go out of there way to tell you that ANIMALS are not a person, or a people. ONLY humans are a person, or people.

Humans, elves, trolls, orks, dwarves are all humans (hence why they all fall under the term metahuman). Thus they are Persons, and People.

Shifters are animals. Sorry it hurts your fee-fees, but that is clear. As animals, they are NOT Persons nor People. Yes language sucks, but thems the rules. Suck it up buttercup!

AI are a DIGITAL contruct. Not humans. So again not a Person nor People. Just the way it works. I'm sorry you don't like it, but thems the rules.

Words have meaning and context. PERSON and PEOPLE are used for HUMANS. Flock, gaggle, murder, pride, host, swarm, are all descriptors for animals.

Again, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. And nor am I arrogant enough to expect the definition of a word to change to fit my "fweewings".... there is process for that if you really want to whine and cry about, talk to those in charge.... but until then the definition of PERSON and PEOPLE is that those terms apply to humans only.

(And before you go off on it. Yes trolls, elves, orks, and dwarves are humans. Because GENETICS say so.)

[Sendaz]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/No-job-no-excuse-for-turning-down-sex-work/2005/01/30/1107020262141.html
Looks like it was Germany. My bad.

Now on a side note for clarity, that did turn out to be false:
http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp

However, this should not be taken to mean there is not a massive problem in human trafficking, with many young women (and men) getting lured away in hopes of better jobs only to travel to foreign locales and their passports taken off them, before being forced into the skin trade.

And for the regular joe nowadays, most of them would put up their hands and say 'what can you do about it?'  not too unlike the SR citizen as most folk simply don't consider it their problem.

Not that SR must make a lot of that seem downright tame when furries can hook up with shifters, blood dolls stick their neck out for vamps and somewhere out there is probably Mantis Snuff Porn.

[Reaver]

Well, that restores my faith in humanity by a tiny fraction.

[DigitalZombie]

So if your daughter got turned into a ghoul on her sweet 16th birthday.
She would incerated by you when she approached you saying she needed money for a fancy wig?

I thinl in shadowrun the only people are those with a valid SIN.  A sterile cannibalistic cloned awakened pedophile is still "people". (unless he is SINless).

[Sengir]

Nothing I daid you can't find without a little google-Fu Sengir.

If you think those women in many of those body-rub and massage parlours are there by choice, think again. Sexual slavery is a trillion dollar a year industry with over 2 million women FORCED into the sex trade against their will each year. Many of them end at such establishments. If that's not the 20th centery version of a bunraku parlour, i don't know what is.

Hate to break it to you, but while slavery certainly exists in many sectors, the stories about the trillion-dollar industry, ten thousands of trafficking victims ferried in for the Super Bowl, yadda yadda, are vastly exaggerated claims made up to get more funding or justify people's Victorian moralities. If you go looking for the source of these numbers, you will find two:
a) They got pulled straight out of somebody's rear
b) Police declaring any vice-related arrest to be another spectacular blow against human trafficking, your tax dollars doing good work folks! The fact that they're doing so while arresting both parties and parading them in public should give some hint as to how much they believe the whole "liberating poor enslaved victims" spin themselves.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/No-job-no-excuse-for-turning-down-sex-work/2005/01/30/1107020262141.html
Looks like it was Germany. My bad.

Speaking of stuff pulled out of somewhere: Whether it was NZ, Germany, or Farawayestan, the story been boiled over for more than a decade, without ever producing any shred of proof.

You last point makes no sense. Care to try again...(me thinks you talk yourself into your own corner).

Alright, let me try to put it a bit more directly: Your argument was such a textbook example of circular reasoning that I find myself wondering whether you are trolling us with a minimally modified version of the famous "Wellington is in New Zealand, therefore Wellington is in New Zealand"...

A few posts up you'll find the dictonary definitions of the words People and Person.

I've got an inherited dictionary from 190x, if I look up "power plant" there it certainly won't list nuclear power plants. Did I just prove that nuclear power plants are not power plants at all, or might the problem just be that dictionaries can only list what was known when the entry was written?

[LordGrizzle]

A few posts up you'll find the dictonary definitions of the words People and Person.

They both go out of there way to tell you that ANIMALS are not a person

Shifters are animals. Sorry it hurts your fee-fees, but that is clear. As animals, they are NOT Persons nor People. Yes language sucks, but thems the rules. Suck it up buttercup!

AI are a DIGITAL contruct. Not humans. So again not a Person nor People. Just the way it works. I'm sorry you don't like it, but thems the rules.

Again, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. And nor am I arrogant enough to expect the definition of a word to change to fit my "fweewings".... there is process for that if you really want to whine and cry about, talk to those in charge.... but until then the definition of PERSON and PEOPLE is that those terms apply to humans only.

Well. I don't tend to follow the rules if they cause sentient beings to be harmed. I don't expect the definition of the word to change because I want it to. But in the end it's just a word and words have no power. The only thing that matters are your actions. As a shifter I wouldn't demand to be strictly called a person. But I expect you not to attack me just because the law allows you to do so. Because I strongly believe that a sentient being should never resort to harming another sentient being. And that extends to infected for me as well to connect back to the actual topic. With that said I am only willing to accept infected as long as they don't cause suffering for other sentient beings. Easier for ghouls, A LOT harder for vampires.

[Reaver]

Sadly yes.

I don't want to see her suffer, both mentally, emotionally, and physically. Which is both the trauma that the virus puts them through, the mental anguish of realizing what they have become and what they have to do to survive; And the trauma that society itself will inflict on her because of what the virus has done to her.

It's a mercy, and humaine thing to do.

●●●●●

Have you people considered what this virus does, and the consiquences of infection?

First, the disease painfully ravishes both the body and the brain as it warps both into its new form over the onset time. It is this mental trauma, coupled with extreme pain that drives many ghouls Feral.

Next is the social side of the disease. By law in many countries,  Ghouls lose their SIN status. So suddenly they can't find legal work anymore. They can't rent or own property, have a bank account or even have a say in their own country (can't vote). This drives them straight into the street.

Once on the street, things get even worse. As a ghoul many people are not going to help them,. Heck many people will actively go out of their way to harm ghouls! which just drives them deeper into the dark places.

There is talk of ghouls digging up graves to gind food.... well thanks to the Shedim many cities have taken to burning bodies instead or inturning them (to say nothing of the land usage) so graveyard robberies are getting slimmer. Other mentions have been medical waste or corner offices.... But both of those have some problems too, the first is what exactly are you eating from medical waste??? Removed cancerous toumors?  Disease infested amputations? The fat from rich bitches' asses? Yummy. Corners offices are part of a chain evidence and investigation. Bodies are carefully examined for evidence of death and trauma... which makes it a gard to walk off with a snack...

So that basically leaves shadow services..... streetdocs who need a body cleanup (but how many times can a street doc lose a patient before clients dry up... or an angry teammate gives them a double tap to the brainpan?). Or the organleggers. And really if you are working for the organleggers chances are you are also hunting (after all, where do you think organleggers get their goods from??)
●●●●

So yes, to spare her that pain and suffering and moral choices, I would end her life.

Now, does that make me a monster? Most likely. But then again I am already damned from the rivers of blood on my hands from past mistakes and actions.... So I might as well be damned for an act of love.

[Sengir]

With that said I am only willing to accept infected as long as they don't cause suffering for other sentient beings. Easier for ghouls, A LOT harder for vampires.

"Your right to swing your arms..."

That's why vampire rights are limited to Amazonia and other places where the vampire with a K-12 habit might be the most humane guy in the neighborhood...

[Reaver]

A few posts up you'll find the dictonary definitions of the words People and Person.

They both go out of there way to tell you that ANIMALS are not a person

Shifters are animals. Sorry it hurts your fee-fees, but that is clear. As animals, they are NOT Persons nor People. Yes language sucks, but thems the rules. Suck it up buttercup!

AI are a DIGITAL contruct. Not humans. So again not a Person nor People. Just the way it works. I'm sorry you don't like it, but thems the rules.

Again, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. And nor am I arrogant enough to expect the definition of a word to change to fit my "fweewings".... there is process for that if you really want to whine and cry about, talk to those in charge.... but until then the definition of PERSON and PEOPLE is that those terms apply to humans only.

Well. I don't tend to follow the rules if they cause sentient beings to be harmed. I don't expect the definition of the word to change because I want it to. But in the end it's just a word and words have no power. The only thing that matters are your actions. As a shifter I wouldn't demand to be strictly called a person. But I expect you not to attack me just because the law allows you to do so. Because I strongly believe that a sentient being should never resort to harming another sentient being. And that extends to infected for me as well to connect back to the actual topic. With that said I am only willing to accept infected as long as they don't cause suffering for other sentient beings. Easier for ghouls, A LOT harder for vampires.

And I general y don't go out of my way to hunt down infected either... But at the same time, I have ZERO qualms of opening up with a force 20 flamethrower spell if one so much as looks at me sideways....

And I could really care less about the other things out there  (Shifters, Pixies, etc).....Mostly because my interactions with them have been so limited.
Never seen a Pixie, EVER.
I have run into exactly two shifters. One sells me reagents, the other tried to  take out my team (and I made a message out of him).

I have a huge problem with AIs, no secret there.... But you survive the Renraku Incident, and see how much you trust a construct again. (especially when you are already leery of the Matrix)


BUT, that said, I am also a criminal that has a job to do, and if you get in the way of that job, I WILL take you down, and I don't care who/what you are.

[Reaver]

<<After typing out a huge post last night and having the webpage hiccup and lose, I typed this out off line then pasted it here. >>

>>Hate to break it to you, but while slavery certainly exists in many sectors, the stories about the trillion-dollar industry, ten thousands of trafficking victims ferried in for the Super Bowl, yadda yadda, are vastly exaggerated claims made up to get more funding or justify people's Victorian moralities. If you go looking for the source of these numbers, you will find two:
a) They got pulled straight out of somebody's rear
b) Police declaring any vice-related arrest to be another spectacular blow against human trafficking, your tax dollars doing good work folks! The fact that they're doing so while arresting both parties and parading them in public should give some hint as to how much they believe the whole "liberating poor enslaved victims" spin themselves.

Lets see.....
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/trafficking.pdf
http://www.soroptimist.org/trafficking/faq.html (feminist spin)
http://www.un.org/events/women/iwd/2007/factsfigures.shtml
https://www.stopthetraffik.org/the-scale-of-human-traffiking (human trafficing mostly)
http://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_182109/lang--en/index.htm (trafficing and slavery in all forms)

Now, the numbers in these documents fluctuate wildly with some listing 200k-1mil, others listing 700k to 4mil... with economic gains listed anywhere from $500 million all the way up to $400 billion. And even the writers admit that thanks to this being a underground illegal activitiy, it is very hard to get a full picture and true value.
If you dont' like or accept those documents, would you be so kind as to provide links to documents you feel are more inclined to "tell the truth"?
Thanks.


>>>Alright, let me try to put it a bit more directly: Your argument was such a textbook example of circular reasoning that I find myself wondering whether you are trolling us with a minimally modified version of the famous "Wellington is in New Zealand, therefore Wellington is in New Zealand"...

Ah, you are talking about petitio principii. Sadly, you are all bit off here. petitio principii relys on a burden of proof. I have given the proof by a direct copy/paste to this thread, that showed the meaning of the words in question. (and you can check my evidence/proof with a simple search. Go ahead, I'll wait )
now, If I had said "People are persons cause only persons are people" you may have a case. But I did not do so, I listed out what the word means, how it applied, the conditions of use, and the its terminology. That is as far as the Burden of proof is required from my end. I have stated my position, disclosed my evidence in support of my position, and rested my argument. Now it is up to YOU to disprove my claim with your burden of proof, which you have not done. All you have done is level an emotional attack, and then deflected. Which, I believe is refered to as a "strawman" (but you seem to be more acedemically minded, Am I wrong?)
So, please, explain to me, and show your burden of evidence that proves that animals are Persons and People. I'll wait.



>>>I've got an inherited dictionary from 190x, if I look up "power plant" there it certainly won't list nuclear power plants. Did I just prove that nuclear power plants are not power plants at all, or might the problem just be that dictionaries can only list what was known when the entry was written?

Yes, actually it does. It proves that in 190X, there were no nuclear powerplants. And you are correct that it only shows what was know at the time of the writting; But you seem to have missed a large point. (I'll wait while you go back up top and read the previous posts and see where you missed it.)
I compared the entry of People and Person currently with a known common word that is in use today and then compared to a dictonary of modern times to see if they had a entry that matched the common use of the word. It did not.
I then made a supposition that was founded on that (admitted slim) evidence of how long it takes to get a word's newly common meaning added to its official definition. And compared THAT to what was being expected by an other poster. And since I don't have a timemachine that allows me to not only travel to the future, but visit imaginary places, its the best I could do. And is very common when dealing with futureistic, fantasy settings.
What I did NOT do, what pull out a dictonary from 300 years ago and say "this is what it says, There-fore, THIS is Correct (like you did with the 190x and nuclear power). I did respond to Senko's request for what the definition of the word was 224 years ago by tracking down an online 1792 dictonary and carefuly reprinted the info here. (which wasn't even MY burden -it was Senko's- as it was his position that the word had changed, yet never directly proved. But I felt like being nice.)

The base point is, Words have meaning and definitions attached to them, those definitions do not change quickly nor do the change to fit the whims of a single individual, or an minority of individuals.. No matter how you feel about it.




And I STILL waiting for *proof* that animals are People and Persons.

(Ball's in your court now Sengir)