[Marcus]

I don't like game design that's basically "you get what you start with, so suck it." I think it's a crap design philosophy.

If you prefer that sort go play some board games. There are plenty of them out there, and a good number are pretty good.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't like game design that's basically "you get what you start with, so suck it." I think it's a crap design philosophy.

If I prefer that sort go play some board games. There are plenty of them out there, and a good number are pretty good.

So you're saying that if someone wants their characters to be able to advance at a rate that they don't have to get extraordinarily lucky and have one that lasts a decade, they should "just play board games instead"? That's bunk, man.

[Marcus]

I don't like game design that's basically "you get what you start with, so suck it." I think it's a crap design philosophy.

If I prefer that sort go play some board games. There are plenty of them out there, and a good number are pretty good.

So you're saying that if someone wants their characters to be able to advance at a rate that they don't have to get extraordinarily lucky and have one that lasts a decade, they should "just play board games instead"? That's bunk, man.

I'm saying if you want to play a game where you do not advance your character, you should give board games a try.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't like game design that's basically "you get what you start with, so suck it." I think it's a crap design philosophy.

If I prefer that sort go play some board games. There are plenty of them out there, and a good number are pretty good.

So you're saying that if someone wants their characters to be able to advance at a rate that they don't have to get extraordinarily lucky and have one that lasts a decade, they should "just play board games instead"? That's bunk, man.

I'm saying if you want to play a game where you do not advance your character, you should give board games a try.

Probably would have been better to word it that way to begin with.

[Shadowjack]

I must also note that people toss around the Stormwind Fallacy as some kind of irrefutable fact but it is very far from it and many people, myself included, consider it to be completely false.

Thus you prove your ignorance. Refusing to accept stormwind's fallacy doesn't actually make it untrue, the logic of it holds. Yes, you're not alone in refusing to accept it, many prejudice ignorant gamers do reject it, tragically.  But in end the gamers most hurt by their ignorance is themselves. 

I do feel bad for you having spent so much time reading and having failed to understand it all.

But the point of your posts are attempting to say power gaming is bad, and that will now and forever be untrue.  Nothing you say will change that fact. I agree that role playing is as important a part of gaming as the system is, and yes like system master it's a skill that takes time to develop. But sadly it's  not something that can be developed as much in forums, you can teach tropes and strategies, but it's not a skill that can communicated clear in the forums. To be a true master of table top you must master both role playing and the system, to master one without the other will leave you deficient in the other.

But back to the topic of your ignorance, you showed it in several places,  your generalization of power gamers as quick to anger when called in question is frankly just another example of your prejudicial stereotyping. Notice that no one has come back at you with any of usual RP obsesses silliness. Your statement that you think the example character are a good model is another example, if you know the rules well  then you know they are built incorrectly.

Finally, what this forum does is help teach people to build better character at their request (Often their first or second character), as well as discussing implementation of certain concepts, and of course there is some level rules discussion that occurs. Yes sometimes we do suggest scrapping a mechanical approach, but only when such a thing cannot be executed in the system in a way that would work at a table, or given the constraints the player has already listed. Not all things are possible in the system or under stated preferences.  Nothing in that is about indoctrinating new posters into power gamers.  Plenty of times folks myself included have posted suggestions on how to role play a concept, or given advice on how to deal with the many communication issues that arise at the table.

In closing I respectfully suggest you correct your ignorance. You have much to gain, and nothing to lose by doing so.

Do you really believe this post was acceptable? It's by far the rudest post I've had directed at me in a long time and you got what you had coming. It's because of people like you that I routinely leave this forum for years at a time. Nobody in the world wants to be treated like that, if you don't understand that I think that is quite unusual and I do think that you should feel bad about it. No post of mine prior to that one was even close to what you wrote and you can expect a bad reaction like you got. You can consider your post in whatever way you wish but it definitely felt like a personal attack to me, not to mention that you are declaring a concept to be irrefutable when droves of players think it is rediculous. Just because I disagree with an idea you prescribe to does not give you the right to do what you did, no matter how strongly you believe in it.

Moving on. The karma guidelines are just that, guidelines. The fact that I give out more karma does not mean I am doing anything against the rules. The GM is allowed to distribute karma as he sees fit. Like others, I find that advancement is quite rough in 5th edition, especially since skills can go up to  rating 13. I also don't enjoy playing campaigns that last literally hundreds of sessions and span decades. I think the guidelines in the core book are more in line with 4th edition than 5th. The suggest nuyen rewards are odd too, you will probably never see Deltaware Wired Reflexes Rating 3 or acquire a Fairlight Excalibur. While these items are quite expensive the book should at least offer guidelines that can actually lead up to acquiring these things within a reasonable amount of time. It would really suck to save up 600,000 nuyen over the course of 2 years of play and then have your character die.

[All4BigGuns]

I must also note that people toss around the Stormwind Fallacy as some kind of irrefutable fact but it is very far from it and many people, myself included, consider it to be completely false.

Thus you prove your ignorance. Refusing to accept stormwind's fallacy doesn't actually make it untrue, the logic of it holds. Yes, you're not alone in refusing to accept it, many prejudice ignorant gamers do reject it, tragically.  But in end the gamers most hurt by their ignorance is themselves. 

I do feel bad for you having spent so much time reading and having failed to understand it all.

But the point of your posts are attempting to say power gaming is bad, and that will now and forever be untrue.  Nothing you say will change that fact. I agree that role playing is as important a part of gaming as the system is, and yes like system master it's a skill that takes time to develop. But sadly it's  not something that can be developed as much in forums, you can teach tropes and strategies, but it's not a skill that can communicated clear in the forums. To be a true master of table top you must master both role playing and the system, to master one without the other will leave you deficient in the other.

But back to the topic of your ignorance, you showed it in several places,  your generalization of power gamers as quick to anger when called in question is frankly just another example of your prejudicial stereotyping. Notice that no one has come back at you with any of usual RP obsesses silliness. Your statement that you think the example character are a good model is another example, if you know the rules well  then you know they are built incorrectly.

Finally, what this forum does is help teach people to build better character at their request (Often their first or second character), as well as discussing implementation of certain concepts, and of course there is some level rules discussion that occurs. Yes sometimes we do suggest scrapping a mechanical approach, but only when such a thing cannot be executed in the system in a way that would work at a table, or given the constraints the player has already listed. Not all things are possible in the system or under stated preferences.  Nothing in that is about indoctrinating new posters into power gamers.  Plenty of times folks myself included have posted suggestions on how to role play a concept, or given advice on how to deal with the many communication issues that arise at the table.

In closing I respectfully suggest you correct your ignorance. You have much to gain, and nothing to lose by doing so.

Do you really believe this post was acceptable? It's by far the rudest post I've had directed at me in a long time and you got what you had coming. It's because of people like you that I routinely leave this forum for years at a time. Nobody in the world wants to be treated like that, if you don't understand that I think that is quite unusual and I do think that you should feel bad about it. No post of mine prior to that one was even close to what you wrote and you can expect a bad reaction like you got. You can consider your post in whatever way you wish but it definitely felt like a personal attack to me, not to mention that you are declaring a concept to be irrefutable when droves of players think it is rediculous. Just because I disagree with an idea you prescribe to does not give you the right to do what you did, no matter how strongly you believe in it.

It really seems like you're equating ignorance and stupidity, and that just isn't always the case.

[Shadowjack]

I understand both of the words... I just find it rude, annoying and unncessary. Calling someone ignorant 3 of 4 times suggests in one post, sprinkled with a bunch of other insulting and snide remarks is not very polite.

[All4BigGuns]

Some of those archetypes really aren't very good. I'm not even talking about the whole 'optimal' thing either, as there are some in the core book that flat don't follow the rules.

[Shadowjack]

I know that and I never said I like them. All I said is that according to the book they seem to be Prime Runners and I even said that I didn't think they were that interesting. The main point is that they're fleshed out while grunts are missing a lot of finer details.

[All4BigGuns]

I know that and I never said I like them. All I said is that according to the book they seem to be Prime Runners and I even said that I didn't think they were that interesting. The main point is that they're fleshed out while grunts are missing a lot of finer details.

You're putting way too much stock into the misuse of the term (a mistake in the text, IMO) from that one chapter. Whether you go as far as Harlequin or not, the fact remains that to be Prime requires a great deal more skill and experience than any PC should be facing off against until they've reached about the 200 karma point at least.

[Hobbes]

I know that and I never said I like them. All I said is that according to the book they seem to be Prime Runners and I even said that I didn't think they were that interesting. The main point is that they're fleshed out while grunts are missing a lot of finer details.

Why in the world would any GM want a grunt to have details?  Any NPC that is going to get spotlight time by definition isn't a grunt. 

The Mr. J that is going to send you on a complex series of runs that ends in a sudden twist of betrayal?  Sure, stat him up, write a little short story for a decker or face to dig up.  The bodyguards that'll never say a word?  Er... why would a GM care?  Give me the combat stats and some space in the margins to track the health bars.  I really don't care if thing 1 has a Knowledge skill of Pastries and thing 2 is working out some abandonment issues in therapy.  They're not the primary actors.  If the PCs hatch some sceme and I need to make up some minor details I'll do it on the fly.  Don't clutter up the books with page after page of backstory material that the PCs aren't ever going to discover or won't come up.

[Marcus]

Do you really believe this post was acceptable? It's by far the rudest post I've had directed at me in a long time and you got what you had coming. It's because of people like you that I routinely leave this forum for years at a time. Nobody in the world wants to be treated like that, if you don't understand that I think that is quite unusual and I do think that you should feel bad about it. No post of mine prior to that one was even close to what you wrote and you can expect a bad reaction like you got. You can consider your post in whatever way you wish but it definitely felt like a personal attack to me, not to mention that you are declaring a concept to be irrefutable when droves of players think it is rediculous. Just because I disagree with an idea you prescribe to does not give you the right to do what you did, no matter how strongly you believe in it.

I do. I said exactly what I feel is correct and continue to feel is correct. I didn't say you were unintelligent. I said you were ignorant. I still believe that, and I can cite examples. I attacked your argument that you were not ignorant from your earlier post, thus it was not an Ad hom attack. I'm sorry you find it hurtful, but that doesn't change the truth of it. My arguments are text book, including 3 counter examples, and I even included a statement of sympathy. That you find that to be an attack on you I cannot help, but I can say I was respectful, I even said so in the last sentence.

You never addressed my arguments, you just said I was very rude. So if I'm wrong prove me wrong.
 

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah I wouldn't call Harlequin a Prime Runner. He's so far beyond even that. He's a force of nature like dragons and the known public heads of the megas. Slamm-O and Bull and Kane are Prime Runners. But even then the term is pretty broad and can encompass a lot of different characters with huge variation as to how good they actually are as well as time spent as a career runner. And even then Prime Runner chargen isn't going to get you to match them in all likelihood.

[Shadowjack]

I know that and I never said I like them. All I said is that according to the book they seem to be Prime Runners and I even said that I didn't think they were that interesting. The main point is that they're fleshed out while grunts are missing a lot of finer details.

You're putting way too much stock into the misuse of the term (a mistake in the text, IMO) from that one chapter. Whether you go as far as Harlequin or not, the fact remains that to be Prime requires a great deal more skill and experience than any PC should be facing off against until they've reached about the 200 karma point at least.

But how did you reach that conclusion? It even gives guidelines for how to build super powered prime runners and weaker ones. Am I missing something?

I know that and I never said I like them. All I said is that according to the book they seem to be Prime Runners and I even said that I didn't think they were that interesting. The main point is that they're fleshed out while grunts are missing a lot of finer details.

Why in the world would any GM want a grunt to have details?  Any NPC that is going to get spotlight time by definition isn't a grunt. 

The Mr. J that is going to send you on a complex series of runs that ends in a sudden twist of betrayal?  Sure, stat him up, write a little short story for a decker or face to dig up.  The bodyguards that'll never say a word?  Er... why would a GM care?  Give me the combat stats and some space in the margins to track the health bars.  I really don't care if thing 1 has a Knowledge skill of Pastries and thing 2 is working out some abandonment issues in therapy.  They're not the primary actors.  If the PCs hatch some sceme and I need to make up some minor details I'll do it on the fly.  Don't clutter up the books with page after page of backstory material that the PCs aren't ever going to discover or won't come up.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I agree with you 100% Grunts lack details, prime runners are fleshed out.

Yeah I wouldn't call Harlequin a Prime Runner. He's so far beyond even that. He's a force of nature like dragons and the known public heads of the megas. Slamm-O and Bull and Kane are Prime Runners. But even then the term is pretty broad and can encompass a lot of different characters with huge variation as to how good they actually are as well as time spent as a career runner. And even then Prime Runner chargen isn't going to get you to match them in all likelihood.

Agreed. It's unlikely for a player character to ever even come close to Harlequin in terms of karma expenditures. The scary thing is that his stats in Street Legends were for a system with a max skill rating of 6 lol.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Some of those archetypes really aren't very good. I'm not even talking about the whole 'optimal' thing either, as there are some in the core book that flat don't follow the rules.

I heard somewhere once that they were actually made before character gen rules were completed, and thus it isn't possible that they could conform to them. Seems super lazy and shitty on the part of catalyst, but that seems to be their publishing MO. Bad editing is like a running bad joke with them.