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The Ecology of the Shedim

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #45 on: <01-19-16/1440:25> »
Spoiler alert...

The Reavers are just people that survived that experiment that turned most of a planet's population into drooling zombies.

If you're using the Reaver analogy, then Shedim are just spirits that went through some sort of corrupting ritual.

Reaver

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« Reply #46 on: <01-19-16/1457:29> »
Sure....
And turned them all into murderous zombie spirits of death and destruction with no hope of reason, rationale or cookies!  ::)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #47 on: <01-19-16/1618:47> »
Ummm... yes?  I mean I presume this thread IS about the ecology of the Shedim.  If that is so, then we need to be open minded about the source of the limited information that we have on them.  The tortured spirit trapped in a world that is toxic to itself, which demands possessing a corpse as the only means of not dying does seem to be a compelling origin. 

Reaver

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« Reply #48 on: <01-19-16/1629:58> »
No, they need to possess a body because they are so ALIEN to astral plane and the material plane that without a body, they slowly die to evansense. (Their Force bleeds off into the manasphere)

This of its self proves nothing other then their native plane is vastly different then both the astral and the material planes, and has nothing to do with if they are 'Good or Evil'.

What makes them evil is their obession with ending ALL life. Hell, even other spirits hate the shedim, which should tell you something.

Seriously Joe, buying the leftover Kool-Aid from Jonestown for personal consumption was a really bad idea...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #49 on: <01-19-16/1741:05> »
Reavers are humans turned hyper-aggressive by PAX, and who's to say there isn't a cure that could reverse it? I honestly would rather liken Reavers to the various HMHVV Infected because Reavers seem to be semi-feral while still being able to perform complex tasks like piloting starships, and some of the more feral Infected lose control over themselves after a while.

I do however agree that canon-wise, Shedim are Bad News™. Their motivations are largely unknown to us, but we know that collectively they all seem to want to kill any living being without exception. Ibn Eisa, the leader of the New Islamic Jihad, was a great example of a Master Shedim. Instead of a shambling corpse with a malevolent intelligence who is hellbent on wantonly murdering everything in its immediate surrounding like its lesser Shedim cousins, the Shedim possessing Ibn Eisa's decaying body literally turned the Islamic Unity Movement into a terrorist organization and unleashed a wave of terror throughout the Middle East. In short, Shedim are bad, and Master Shedim are bad on a scale that's hard to comprehend.

It's also worth pointing out that Shedim, and indeed any being with the Evanescence weakness, may not actually "die" in the traditional metahuman view when they reach 0 Essence. It is unknown, at least to us as players from a canon perspective, whether Shedim who succumb to Evanescence are actually destroyed or merely return to their own plane of existence. As Street Grimoire points out, "for [the] purposes of us on the prime material the two results are pretty much the same", but for the purposes of this discussion this could at least in part affect the motivation of Shedim. If they are merely returned to their home plane they are effectively immortal and "live" to fight another day, but if they are destroyed then they are effectively "just" struggling for survival.

I don't think the latter, if even remotely true, makes them any less evil from the point of view of metahumanity in general, though. They're still bodysnatching spirits with a penchant for murder who feed on the life force of other living beings, and they exude an aura that literally causes living organisms to decay under continued exposure. The fiction insinuate that they kill people not because they have to to survive, but because they want to, and for no logical reason that anyone in-setting knows of. That makes them pretty much wholly evil in my book.

A shark isn't considered "evil" by most rational beings if it chomps a surfer.
A shark that somehow gained sapience, managed to leave the ocean and move into a highly populated area, and that then started viciously killing and draining human beings would probably be considered both terrifying and quite evil by most people I know.

Sendaz

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« Reply #50 on: <01-19-16/1750:22> »

A shark that somehow gained sapience, managed to leave the ocean and move into a highly populated area, and that then started viciously killing and draining human beings would probably be considered both terrifying and quite evil by most people I know.
Now let's just leave Lawyers out of this debate, because that's a whole other level. :P
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #51 on: <01-19-16/1805:51> »
Something about 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean...

Excepting people who are laywers already or studying for the bar exam and happen to also write for Catalyst :D

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #52 on: <01-19-16/1833:17> »
That's just it.  We don't know their motivation.  We've just seen their activities and ascribed it to hatred of life.  They could think of us the same way that we think of a virus, just some disease that needs to be erraticated.  That doesn't make them evil, but it also doesn't mean we have to lay down and take it.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #53 on: <01-19-16/1850:40> »
That's just it.  We don't know their motivation.  We've just seen their activities and ascribed it to hatred of life.  They could think of us the same way that we think of a virus, just some disease that needs to be erraticated.  That doesn't make them evil, but it also doesn't mean we have to lay down and take it.

I disagree, based on what canon has to say about Shedim. We may not know their exact motivations, but the results are pretty clear:
Quote from: Street Grimoire p. 93
Shedim have shown a desire to travel to the physical plane, though it is extremely difficult for them to stay there, but have also shown nothing but utter hatred for mortals. They come to where life exists so that they may extinguish it.
Quote from: Street Grimoire p. 93
Whereas previous shedim appeared to be intellectually primitive entities filled with hate and violence, the master shedim exhibited a deep and malicious intelligence.
Quote from: Street Grimoire p. 93
Conflicts started by the [New Islamic Jihad, led by Ibn Eisa, a Master Shedim] cost thousands of lives, all under the direction of this malevolent entity. Clearly, the shedim orchestrated the conflict merely to instigate widespread death, and many fear what other carnage these beings might be planning.[/b]

Definition of evil:
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and malevolent.

noun
1. profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.

Yeah, that's pretty much a textbook definition of Shedim for you right there. You can go on about your personal belief on the matter, but the source material doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation here. Keep in mind that the concept of good and evil is a social construct; from metahumanity's point of view, Shedim are irrevocably, quantifiably evil, regardless of what their actual intentions may be.
« Last Edit: <01-19-16/1906:36> by Herr Brackhaus »

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #54 on: <01-19-16/2131:27> »
Look up naiveté,  confirmation bias, unreliable narrator and racism while you're in the dictionary.

MijRai

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« Reply #55 on: <01-19-16/2141:45> »
Look up 'Unbiased Game Information,' 'Evidence' and 'Canon' while you're at it, Joe.  The books flat-out state in the game information sections on Shedim that they are malevolent beings whose existence/presence is inimical to life, to say nothing about their behavior when they manage to stick around.  Maybe if they just stole unclaimed bodies/vessels to live their spirit lives, it'd be okay.  They don't.  They seek to destroy everything living. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #56 on: <01-19-16/2318:49> »
Look up naiveté,  confirmation bias, unreliable narrator and racism while you're in the dictionary.
Nice try, but no. You've clearly got your own opinion on this and I have no need to try to convince you that I am "right". I know what the canon states and what that means for my game, and that's good enough for me.

Mr. Grey

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« Reply #57 on: <01-20-16/0029:48> »
This whole thing on the Shedim remind me of the president from Mars Attacks after they smashed up the US military. 'But they said they come in peace so they must mean they come in peace.'

Most spirit planes have shades of grey as they are different so their interactions with metahumanity are going to be complicated. The crystal entities they talked about recently are a really clear example of that. Shedim and the Horrors fall in a clear cut black area. Is there a plane where they're all good as well? Maybe, but we haven't ran into it yet.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #58 on: <01-20-16/0116:40> »
This whole thing on the Shedim remind me of the president from Mars Attacks after they smashed up the US military. 'But they said they come in peace so they must mean they come in peace.'

Most spirit planes have shades of grey as they are different so their interactions with metahumanity are going to be complicated. The crystal entities they talked about recently are a really clear example of that. Shedim and the Horrors fall in a clear cut black area. Is there a plane where they're all good as well? Maybe, but we haven't ran into it yet.

At least Horrors need metahumans alive.

Longshot23

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« Reply #59 on: <01-20-16/0541:54> »
Pardon me while i chip in again . . .

Is it fair to liken shedim (master or not) to any other "Monster"TM from any other source?
Are shedim like non-corporeal Goa'uld, or Aliens, or Wraith (SGA), or Daleks, or . . . .

As informative and definitive as those excerpts from Street Grimoire are, I'm still hoping for a . . . [in-game] breakdown and expansion, analytical or not, of What Shedim Want.

 

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