[All4BigGuns]

My GM took one look at the 5e costs and was like "okay, use the 4A costs for Availability, nuyen, and Essence where they're more favorable to you, because this is ludicrous." And then slapped a flat cost % off decks for the same reason.

The unfortunate thing is that that was necessary. I do believe that Mirikon is right on that the prices are so high because that's how it was in SR3 and before. The worst is that Muscle Toner was only 25k per level in SR3 and Muscle Augmentation was 20k per level then. Level 2 of the Bioware equivalent of Wired Reflexes was more expensive, but the first level was 20k cheaper than it is now.

[Patrick Goodman]

The unfortunate thing is that that was necessary. I do believe that Mirikon is right on that the prices are so high because that's how it was in SR3 and before. The worst is that Muscle Toner was only 25k per level in SR3 and Muscle Augmentation was 20k per level then. Level 2 of the Bioware equivalent of Wired Reflexes was more expensive, but the first level was 20k cheaper than it is now.

I don't necessarily disagree. I also don't know what prompted some of that.

I don't agree that everything in 4A was the right price, but I can understand why there was grumbling.

[All4BigGuns]

The unfortunate thing is that that was necessary. I do believe that Mirikon is right on that the prices are so high because that's how it was in SR3 and before. The worst is that Muscle Toner was only 25k per level in SR3 and Muscle Augmentation was 20k per level then. Level 2 of the Bioware equivalent of Wired Reflexes was more expensive, but the first level was 20k cheaper than it is now.

I don't necessarily disagree. I also don't know what prompted some of that.

I don't agree that everything in 4A was the right price, but I can understand why there was grumbling.

The problem is that there were a lot of prices that got bumped to a point higher than they've ever been seemingly because of returning to "tradition".

You wanna insult the priority system (which I championed and pushed for, very hard, during development not because it was a sacred cow, but because it mostly worked for what we were trying to accomplish), don't be coy and play with strike-outs. It's insulting for all the wrong reason. Just come out and say what's on your mind in a civil tone. Gets you a lot farther with a lot of the people involved, most especially me.

Expressing severe displeasure and pointing out the blatant flaws in Priority Generation isn't insulting you or the other developers.

You don't like it (and not everyone does; I get that, and I sympathize), but it accomplished the goal of "Everything has a price" in such a way as to get new people into the game as quickly as possible. I'm at a store at an open table and someone's interested, and they're interested enough to want their own character instead of a pre-gen, then I want to get them actually playing the damn game and not fiddling around with analysis paralysis with the twink point-buy system . (See, I can be a jerk, too.)

Is it as flexible as point buy? Of course not; it wasn't meant to be. And that was one of its selling points: Quickness. Now, you don't have to like it; believe it or not, I'm cool with people not liking my stuff, or the stuff that I pushed for (I didn't actually write chargen, I just complained vocally about certain things). But I do want people to know that I didn't suggest it because it was grognard nostalgia; that was a side effect. If any of the other half-dozen or so efforts we explored while we were trying to get chargen written had worked better at accomplishing our goals, I would have pushed for that instead. They didn't.

"Everything has a Price" has seemingly become a bludgeon to be perfectly honest. The philosophy can be used without going overboard as it seems has been done.

Beyond introducing newbies and helping them make their first couple of characters, sacrificing Flexibility for Quickness is really a piss poor trade-off.

You might have championed it because you thought it better fit the philosophy (I honestly believe that you did think it was best), but I (and I bet several others) think that others did so out of the nostalgia factor.

And, to be honest, the word you used 'strike through' on is more insulting than anything anyone else has said. That term is generally used as a tool of shaming to try to make people "play games right".

[FST_Gemstar]

Yes, they could grab a commlink and form a PAN that way. But if they're going through the commlink or deck, they're working as a regular matrix user, and are unable to use any of their resonance abilities. In other words, to be an effective hacker, they have to stop being a technomancer and be a decker.

That isn't my reading. They only lose the ability to use their resonance abilities when they enter the Matrix through a device. You just have to be the owner of a commlink that is the master of the PAN to defend against matrix actions. They are not defending devices with their icon/persona.


I never played a former edition of Shadowrun, so I don't know what I am missing from 4th. I read Unwired and it seems like Streams and Paragons would be nice helps to better customize/specialize/hybridize technomancers that are an easy add and don't know why they weren't part of Data Trails. Complex Form Fade values are also very high for their benefit, but again, that isn't a drastic fix. A sprite being able to share a marks with its technomancer would be very nice:). The big problem with technomancers is that their fluff does not match their crunch. What the book implies they are good at they are not and what they are good at is never really mentioned and seems counter to that fluff. Additionally, they don't have a way to increase meat initiative (though I guess that is supposed to be mitigated by the fact they can max their matrix initiative dice) the way that adepts, magicians, and cybered characters do except with Lightning Reflexes (a big karma sink), getting 'ware,  and drugs. I think technomancers and drugs work great together, but it really shouldn't be a necessity. I also like technomancers with 'ware, but as writtenin the fluff, technomancers seem to be ant-ware, but I find that 'ware and compliment/compensate quite a bit without much Resonance loss. I think some kind perk to 'ware use could be helpful and logical for technomancers who are said to have a natural affinity to machines. Perhaps an echo that mimics something like the Burnout's Way could help in this regard.

Below are some Technomancer archetypes that I think work (though perhaps less than previous editions, but I don't have a comparison):
1. Technoshaman/Pet-class:
Playing a with lots of registered sprites brings a lot to both matrix work, legwork, and meatwork. Having a Fault Sprite take out Host IC will you finish hacking, Having Crack Sprites do Matrix Searches for you while you sit in a static veil bubble snooping on someone's commlink all night, loaning out machine sprites to team members who can get a lot out of them, etc. It's definitely a different style of play than other archetypes, more time intensive, but can be a lot of fun. Being able to riskily overcompile a big ol' sprite sometimes is helpful too (ex. Level 12) to get the job done for you. These characters are not going to have the full breadth of hacking chops of deckers, but they don't need them. The have sprites that can do a lot of the work, and just enough complex forms to help them about.
2. Jack of All Trades/Skillwire:
This is another playable option, though I think less fun than some others. Basically picking up a swillwire/skilljack system, Have a machine sprite run diagnostics, and bam, character gets higher dice rolls and limits on every skillsoft. A character like this can have utility both in the meat and the matrix, and if the character keeps a decent Resonance, and still have lots of beefy enough helpful sprites.
3. Techno-Riggers
Technomancers can still make great riggers. Sure, it does take them 30 karma to get a control rig echo and skinlink (for rig and direct connect bonuses), but in the meantime, a machine sprite can plenty of dice pool/limit bonuses to vehicle/gunnery tests. After 30 karma, it could be argued that technomancers could have an edge, as they can do what any mundane rigger could do and have access to sprites/CFs. Further down the road, they could get up to an equivilant control rig 3, which most riggers don't get.
4. Combat-Technomancers
I've played with these before. While on average not quite as fast or big as a street sam and not quite as dodgy as a combat adept (diagnostics on reaction enhancer legality would help with this), they can still be quite lethal. Appropriate, limited 'ware, focused skills, and machine sprites go a long way here. While unlike a combat decker in that they really can't solo hack. Teamed up with a decker, the combat technomancer can provide sprites/action economy to matrix work, still use complex forms (diffusions, resonance veils, etc.) that can make a decker's life a whole lot easier. At 30 karma, they can get a Pain Editor echo. Most characters can only get the real version at character generation with the Restricted Gear quality, as it is tough to get in play, but technomancers can. Jack of all Trades and Drugs go a long way here too pick up low level skills and to increase initiative.
5. Technofaces
A legwork and social infiltration pro. Social and sneak dice boosting armor + Machine Sprites go a long way here. As does having a face that can do their own or have sprites do matrix search tests, simultaneously. Profiler is my favorite quality for these type of characters, as it can leverage matrix search for even higher dice pools for key social rolls. Though possible to make them also be hackers, hacking technofaces are not going to be on par in the matrix as deckers. With skinlink and some hacking skills, getting through locks, adjusting cameras, etc. become easy. They can talk or Resonance Veil their way past suspicious humans and computers alike. Like the combat-technomancer too, they still have a lot to offer the dedicated team decker so they don't have to deal with matrix threats alone.

Note: I agree that the technoshaman/pet-class is really the best way to play a primary matrix specialist. I've been playing with heavily 'wared Resonance 1 more "techno-adepts," technomancers that do their matrix work more like deckers that eschew CFs and sprites in favor of high skills and attributes, but it's admittedly pretty delicate/limited way to build and not for everyone. I have been having a hard time making a high Resonance "Resonancer" work too,  a technomancer that uses Complex Forms to do the bulk of their Matrix work and heavily invests in them at character generation, as well as really only focusing on technomancer skills (Tasking group and Software). High Fade and nebulous rules make this tough though. But for example, a Resonancer would use Transcendent Grid instead of grid hopping, Editor instead of Edit File, Puppeteer to invite marks (youch but if this character can't hack, this is the only way into a host), Resonance Veil instead of Hide, Resonance Channel instead of direct connecting (if they do end up hacking), etc. Registered Sprites would be use to sustain complex forms like Diffusions of Matrix Attribute and Resonance Veil. They may not even need the Computer skill as Sprites can do Matrix Perception and and Matrix Search for them. The perk is that they don't need any 'ware/gear, don't have to worry about noise, and can work as fast or slow as they need (no overwatch or awareness of of target on failed tests). They probably won't have much meatworld capability but this is more of a stay at home or in the van hacker. Fade resistance is their biggest challenge, so a character like this will focus on having a high willpower, Resonance, use Willpower boosting drugs, and probably take the Otaku to Technomancer Quality. Again, difficult to make work (I am still working), but perhaps another way to make a Technomancer Matrix specialist.

 The other ways (perhaps a the skillwire one could also do matrix work if need be, but that is kind of that role anyway) hybridize into other areas but can provide really helpful matrix support. Though the fluff doesn't indicate it, to me it seems that Technomancers play best as taking non-matrix specialties (combat, rigging, face, etc.) and providing Matrix support. Matrix specialists take on a lot of pressure as hacking is stressful, solitary, and can go south real quick. Being able to have a dedicated team decker AND a matrix support technomancer can make matrix work more interesting, less solitary, and hopefully more fun and more successful too! I will also note that adepts tend to be better at their specialties than hybridized technomancers, but technomancers can have some more flexibility as they grow (Adept power vs machine sprite diagnostics dice pool bonuses: adept powers are fixed and Diagnostics can be used on different devices and for different skill tests), provide matrix support, and are less likely to have their special status easily discovered (adepts can be identified with a single hit on an assensing test vs 5 for technomancers, they have powers that light up in the astral while Resonance effects/sprites are a little more nebulous in their origin, etc.).

Basically, combining the changes to the Matrix, returning to the abomination sacred cow quaint priority system instead of the Point Buy system, and core level alterations to how TMs work all make playing a TM an experience akin to waking up in a hardcore BDSM parlor gagged and without knowing any safewords.

Safewords aren't going to matter much if you're gagged.  :-)

[Beta]

For what it is worth, I like the priority system.  Of course, when other options are presented and one of those will make a stronger character and everyone else is using those rules for character creation, sure I'll use them.  But I've always liked the trade-offs that the priority system enforces -- to me they are interesting.

I may quibble about exactly what you get at what level in different categories, but the system itself I like, and in the limited sample of people I've seen learning the game (including myself once upon a time) none of them found it difficult -- and in fact for the most part making characters was a bit of a relief after some other game systems.  With the priority system more of the game is playing your character, not in the building of it (as in: with some systems I find character creation takes a very long time, yet it is still easy to have massive discrepancies in how effective characters are, so if you put in all the build time and didn't get an effective character out of it, you quickly felt like you'd lost at a key part of the game).

I like that there are other options* in the character options book, but quite pleased that priority build was in the main book.  Which helps balance out my aggravation with some other fundamental choices that were made in how rules were presented :p  (I like my rules books to be reference books with splashes of fluff that are so concise and so appealing that they pull you to look at it.  I have neither the time nor patience to want to read sections linearly from start to finish).  But those are preferences -- if a game system ever made me perfectly happy I'm sure many others would loathe it.

I'm just posting this because most of the time we talk about the stuff we don't like, and not the stuff that we do.  Which makes it easy to feel that 'everybody hates this' because they are the only ones talking about it -- the ones who like it are too busy having fun playing the game with it.  So sometimes it just feels important to point out when I like something that others don't.

* well, one other strong option in sum to 10.  Life modules is interesting but in some ways it seems to have even less flexibility because the vast majority of stories you assemble with it are horrifically inefficient.  And the karma build system, so far as I've been able to tell by messing around with it, flat out makes no sense for any remotely specialized build (including intended effects, like taking advantage of meta-human attribute limits.  A troll with average strength and body uses up almost half your karma, for example).

[All4BigGuns]

One major sting with the new Priority is that you get fewer attribute and skill points than the SR3 version (and SR3 had two fewer standard attributes).

The Attribute and Skill sections of the SR3 Priority Table:

Attributes
A- 30
B- 27
C- 24
D- 21
E- 18

Skills
A- 50
B- 40
C- 34
D- 30
E- 27

Now considering the additional attributes, the SR3 attribute column wouldn't really pose a problem.

A good adaptation of the SR3 skills column would be (notice the skill group points are identical to what's presented in SR5 Core):

A- 50/10
B- 40/5
C- 34/2
D- 30/0
E- 27/0

With regard to prices, making things as expensive as or more expensive than the SR3 equivalents is silly because of the lower character generation resources in SR5. When you can potentially get a cool million in resources, the prices aren't bad, but with the SR5 resources, the prices present a massive problem.


All in all, the fewer points and fewer resources you give in generation, the more the 'optimization' that some do very heavily is encouraged. Conversely, giving more encourages diversification.

[Mirikon]

Trading Flexibility for Quickness is what D&D does. It is what World of Warcraft does. It is, in short, what class-based, level-based systems do, and do well, mostly. When one of the selling points of your system is a level-less, class-less system, that implies the Flexibility to create characters outside of archetypes. When that flexibility has been stripped out in the name of 'streamlining' things down to choices of A, B, C, D, or E, then that's jarring, to say the least. It is like saying you have a sweet 'Vette, but riding up in a Chevette. There's a reason why the majority of level-less, class-less systems tend towards some form of point buy.

Don't get me wrong, it is nice for newbies or people who can't handle math (or at least Excel), but for a lot of people who are bast the noob stage, being able to try new things is one of the draws to keep playing. It is one of the reasons I walked away from World of Warcraft. Look at any level 100 Warlock, and they're going to be in 2-3 different sets of gear, with 2-3 different skill sets, and they're going to be dealing the same attacks over and over again. In Shadowrun, at least in 4E, there was a wealth of different possibilities in different metatypes, spell selection, skills, gear, and more. I could be a Troll Mage, and be good at it, too. Sure, Trolls were expensive, BP-wise, but points could be shifted around easily enough that I could do what I wanted. But in 5th, that Troll Mage has to devote an A-C priority just for the metatype, meaning you're either going to be an aspected mage with good skills and stats, a mage with good stats and crap skills, or a mage with good skills and crap stats. There's no wiggle room. And that's for a fairly basic concept. Things like an AI Face, a Pixie Street Samurai, Changeling Ghoul Adept, and so on are much harder to put together with these restrictions.

YMMV, but for me, systems like GURPS, Champions, M&M, Cortex, and Shadowrun 4th are far better.

[MijRai]

I agree with the skills for sure, Guns.  I'd personally drop the SR3 Attributes down by 2 each if using those numbers for SR5, though.  24 Attribute points as the 'average' choice would  mean said 'runner would be able to have 4s in all normal Attributes as a base-line human (or similar above-par stats for all the other metahumans).  E at 18 gives them the ability to put all Attributes at 3 with two extra, whereas it being at 16 would be all Attributes at the base-line 3 (until you start making concessions).  I mean, its not like many builds take Attributes E anyways, but if you do it should be lower in my mind. 

And I agree with you as well Mirikon; I love Priority for getting things done efficiently in character creation, but a true Point-Buy would be nice.  Your example of the Troll Mage is exactly the problem; it is freaking hard to make a balanced Troll anything using Priority, whereas Point Buy has much more flexibility.  Also, its even worse, as you have to dedicate A-B, not A-C.  There's plenty I could do with C for Troll. 

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, I hammed it up a bit. But seriously, it is a sacred cow, like the karma advancement method. Deliberately clunky and inelegant because, dammit, that's how it was back in the days of yore. Which also explains the new matrix, extremely expensive decks and control rigs, and so on.

Priority is pretty much a sacred cow, yeah (same with the ludicrous prices returning to implants, decks and rigs this edition).

I would prefer a different cost mechanism on advancement. I'm very partial to the costs that L5R puts on raising attributes and skills (see below).

Attributes: New Value x 4
Skills: New Value

As the one person who writes for both L5R and Shadowrun, first, thank you for buying things I've worked on, and second, there are vast differences in each system that make a direct comparison... tricky at best. Roll-and-keep vs 'all dice are the same' alone is a massive issue.

As for sacred cow? Priority wasn't in the rules draft for 5th ed at all. It was several iterations of chargen before it came into the discussion at all. There's a lot of reasons for that and I'm not about to drag them out, but, remember, this is the team that removed Fastjack, killed Great Dragons, and is quite willing to enter uncharted territory. "As a writer, sometimes you have to kill your babies."

In terms of costs of certain things, you might be surprised by who has argued (behind the scenes) in a similar manner. Obviously, the details of that stay behind closed doors, but there are aspects similar to it that have come up here and others I can bring forth as examples to chew on. Opening a new thread for that in a sec, keep an eye out.

[All4BigGuns]

I agree with the skills for sure, Guns.  I'd personally drop the SR3 Attributes down by 2 each if using those numbers for SR5, though.  24 Attribute points as the 'average' choice would  mean said 'runner would be able to have 4s in all normal Attributes as a base-line human (or similar above-par stats for all the other metahumans).  E at 18 gives them the ability to put all Attributes at 3 with two extra, whereas it being at 16 would be all Attributes at the base-line 3 (until you start making concessions).  I mean, its not like many builds take Attributes E anyways, but if you do it should be lower in my mind. 

And I agree with you as well Mirikon; I love Priority for getting things done efficiently in character creation, but a true Point-Buy would be nice.  Your example of the Troll Mage is exactly the problem; it is freaking hard to make a balanced Troll anything using Priority, whereas Point Buy has much more flexibility.  Also, its even worse, as you have to dedicate A-B, not A-C.  There's plenty I could do with C for Troll.

Again, if you give more points, you encourage people to diversify and giving more resources makes those pieces of gear/implants that are considered more "fluffy" more attractive, especially given how prices were jacked up whereas when you give less points, you encourage dipping into 'optimization techniques' and less resources discourages anything not directly conducive to increasing one's primary role in the party.

As the one person who writes for both L5R and Shadowrun, first, thank you for buying things I've worked on, and second, there are vast differences in each system that make a direct comparison... tricky at best. Roll-and-keep vs 'all dice are the same' alone is a massive issue.

The skill cost is the main thing that I'd really like to see in SR (the attribute cost would be nice, but not imperative to me). The biggest problem with advancement (beyond the ludicrous pricing of implants compared to cash rewards) is that it is glacial because of how the costs to increase skill rise exponentially. While there are those that for some strange reason really like glacial advancement, it's still better to have speedier advancement so that people can actually see growth in a reasonable amount of time. The fact is that with few exceptions most games don't run that long, so advancement in SR pretty much means that you aren't seeing any real expansion during the course of a campaign.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Not to throw fuel on the fire or anything; I'm genuinely curious, what does point buy do that Karma generation doesn't?

[FST_Gemstar]

I agree with the skills for sure, Guns.  I'd personally drop the SR3 Attributes down by 2 each if using those numbers for SR5, though.  24 Attribute points as the 'average' choice would  mean said 'runner would be able to have 4s in all normal Attributes as a base-line human (or similar above-par stats for all the other metahumans).  E at 18 gives them the ability to put all Attributes at 3 with two extra, whereas it being at 16 would be all Attributes at the base-line 3 (until you start making concessions).  I mean, its not like many builds take Attributes E anyways, but if you do it should be lower in my mind. 

And I agree with you as well Mirikon; I love Priority for getting things done efficiently in character creation, but a true Point-Buy would be nice.  Your example of the Troll Mage is exactly the problem; it is freaking hard to make a balanced Troll anything using Priority, whereas Point Buy has much more flexibility.  Also, its even worse, as you have to dedicate A-B, not A-C.  There's plenty I could do with C for Troll.

Again, if you give more points, you encourage people to diversify and giving more resources makes those pieces of gear/implants that are considered more "fluffy" more attractive, especially given how prices were jacked up whereas when you give less points, you encourage dipping into 'optimization techniques' and less resources discourages anything not directly conducive to increasing one's primary role in the party.

Couldn't giving more points also encourage even more optimization or multiple specialties?

[All4BigGuns]

Couldn't giving more points also encourage even more optimization or multiple specialties?

Those that are most heavy into the 'optimization' probably would still do it, but giving less because of them at the expense of pretty much forcing others to dip their toes into those techniques is like cutting off a finger to spite the foot.

[Mirikon]

Not to throw fuel on the fire or anything; I'm genuinely curious, what does point buy do that Karma generation doesn't?

Besides having a more elegant design? Point buy encourages people to be good at 2-3 things (a main role, and a couple others). Karmagen, based on how the costs scale nonlinearly, encourages people to either hyperspecialize or have a large number of mediocre skills. Problem being that, past street level, mediocre skills aren't going to cut it typically.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Not to throw fuel on the fire or anything; I'm genuinely curious, what does point buy do that Karma generation doesn't?

Besides having a more elegant design? Point buy encourages people to be good at 2-3 things (a main role, and a couple others). Karmagen, based on how the costs scale nonlinearly, encourages people to either hyperspecialize or have a large number of mediocre skills. Problem being that, past street level, mediocre skills aren't going to cut it typically.

Elegance surely is in the eye of the beholder, no? Personally, I certainly prefer building a character with the same constraints I'll be using to progress my character later. To my mind, it is more elegant to have the same system for both creation and progression as opposed to having to learn one system to build and another to progress.

And as far as encouraging diversity goes; isn't that a table specific thing as opposed to a system one? I mean, some tables hyperspecialize while others generalize, and I'd wager most strike a balance in between the two systems. I fail to see how karma generation and point buy are any different in encouraging (or discouraging) either. You can do both with both systems, depending on what the expectation of the table is.

I just don't think we're seeing the same side of the coin on this, but thanks for answering.