[All4BigGuns]

Yeah, I agree there.  As a Marine (been out for a bit over two years), here's a good example of what you 'need' to succeed (or not get reamed).   
Your base-line enlisted 'mook' should have a dice pool of around 6-10 for Automatics, Gymnastics, Perception, Running and Etiquette.  Those are your baseline necessities to do the job as a basic rifleman (and I mean basic, not 0311 Rifleman), and the variation in dice pool goes from your barely passable folks to the ones who are good, but not quite up to elite standards.  There might be some higher or lower by sheer talent or suckery, but the latter tends to not be enjoyable. 

They should have base familiarity (1-2 Levels in the Skill) with First Aid, Computers (everyone should have a point or two in that in Shadowrun), Leadership, Instruction, Con (some Con helps get access to the Skate-r-ade), Swim, Survival, Tracking, Sneaking, Free-Fall, Throwing Weapons, Unarmed Combat, Heavy Weapons, Clubs, Blades and Navigation (that last isn't required for Lieutenants).  Everybody is shown basic first aid, trained in basic hand-to-hand with and without weapons, given the opportunity to fire an M240 and M203, etc.  Again, it could easily be higher for those people who are talented or interested, or someone got away with never being able to throw a grenade more than ten feet (you never want to be that guy, as funny as the videos where luckily no-one got hurt are). 

This doesn't get into whatever your actual job is.  Some folks are using Chemistry for CBRN or water purification, Electronic Warfare for your antennae huggers, Demolitions for EOD, Industrial Mechanic for engineers, other Mechanics for personnel who maintain vehicles, Pilot for drivers (if you're operating an aircraft, you're not a mook), Pistols if you're lucky to get sent for qualifying with them.  There's also people whose jobs focus on skills already mentioned; a guy who's been in the turret on an MRAP or HMMWV for ten months probably has decent Heavy Weapons/Gunnery skill. 

I mean, let's count this up for your baseline average-achiever.  Average Attributes, so all of them are at 3, has a dice pool of 4 for his familiar things (to buy 1 hit) and 8 for his day-to-day duties.  4 Points into Automatics (3 Automatics, 1 Specialization in Assault Rifles as they've only ever let him regularly shoot an M-16), 5 in Gymnastics, 5 in Running, 4 in Perception (3 Perception, 1 Specialization in Searching), 4 in Etiquette (3 Etiquette, 1 Specialization in Military Culture).  22 here.
Now, we've got 1 point in First Aid, Computers, Leadership, Instruction, Con, Swim, Survival, Tracking, Sneaking, Free-Fall, Throwing Weapons, Unarmed Combat, Heavy Weapons, Clubs, Blades and Navigation.  16 more for a total of 38, to keep count. 
Now there's this guy's job.  What does our average-achiever do?  Let's say he's Comms.  Now we give them 4 points in Electronic Warfare (3 Electronic Warfare, 1 Specialization in Communications) and 4 Points in Hardware (3 Hardware, 1 Specialization in Radios).  That adds 8 more to a grand total of 46 skill points.  The only Group that would be completely applicable is Athletics, so if you put 5 points there you could say 35/5.  Puts what you need to make a 'basic' person at a level really close to Priority B in Skills.  And this is no Special Forces guy.  This isn't even dedicated infantry/machine gunners/mortarmen/assaultmen, who train for their shit a hell of a lot more.  This doesn't even factor in for hobbies/interests/activities that are represented by active skills instead of knowledge skills.

And that's all BEFORE getting into what gets improved because it's where their focus on a Runner Team is. The most likely role would be the combatant, so he'll probably have another 4 or 5 dice in those skills by the time he's at the point where you're creating the character. Not to mention that any Runner worth his salt is gonna have damn good Sneaking.

All in all, after taking into account the Runner training after leaving military life, you're likely looking at well over Priority A in skills with current point totals.

[MijRai]

And that's your one-enlistment, didn't do anything really interesting person. 

[All4BigGuns]

And that's your one-enlistment, didn't do anything really interesting person.

Yeah, that's why I have to hold it in and not just bust out laughing in someone's face when they bring the "Former Special Forces" character in. Good Lord, before becoming a Runner, that guy would probably need at least double what Priority A skills currently gives, a bit more than Priority A attributes currently gives and have the old school Resources level at A just to account for the goodies put inside his body.

[Herr Brackhaus]

To be fair, creating a PR6 equivalent runner easily requires 1200-1400 Karma, and that's just in skills and attributes. I put together a fairly comprehensive review a while back of what it takes to build the grunts in the core book. These guys aren't nearly as generalized as MijRai describes but your PR6 grunt is exceptionally good at what he does what with minimum attributes of 4-5 and maximum of 9 and skill groups in the 7+ range (athletics, stealth, close combat, demolitions, firearms, + perception).

In other words, the former-elite-soldier-turned-runner is a pipe dream unless you're playing with far higher starting resources than Standard. Using normal character generation rules, the best you could hope to put together is a POG who got drummed out for his lack of personal hygiene and bad attitude who only turned to the shadows when he couldn't find employment elsewhere.

[All4BigGuns]

The "Former Elite" or "Former Special Forces" is what I said that I have to hold back laughing in someone's face on.

On just "Former Military", what he describes is the bare minimum to have made it through training (not even serving a whole tour), and it should be possible to make a character from that background with EVERY skill that such a character should have at appropriate levels and still have room to incorporate increases learned after leaving service and new skills picked up at that point. Not to mention that the average in all attributes he mentioned still isn't appropriate since all the physical training would likely have the key physicals (Body, Agility, Strength) and at least Intuition (perhaps Willpower) for mentals at 5s with everything else at at least 3 (possibly 2 for Logic).

It really seems like the points given are intended to try and force people into the whole "street punk who worked his way out of gang life" type deal.

[MijRai]

I would not give 5s to all physical attributes for people in the military.  Mostly 4s with a 5 or two for your active combat MOSs, maybe.  But your average dude with the appropriate skills can totally make it with threes and maybe a four or two. 

I'd also call that a single full enlistment in a non-combat MOS without undue activity.  Average-achiever, not multiple-deployment, stack of ribbons or dedicated to their role/duties kind of person. 

I also didn't factor in skill points for janitorial duties or fuck-fuck games (pardon to anyone offended by the title). 

[All4BigGuns]

I would not give 5s to all physical attributes for people in the military.  Mostly 4s with a 5 or two for your active combat MOSs, maybe.  But your average dude with the appropriate skills can totally make it with threes and maybe a four or two. 

I'd also call that a single full enlistment in a non-combat MOS without undue activity.  Average-achiever, not multiple-deployment, stack of ribbons or dedicated to their role/duties kind of person. 

I could see 4s in the physical attributes, but I'm sorry, with the kind of physical training you go through, I can't see anything less than 4 in physicals. That kind of training WILL end with someone being above average if not well above average (it's one reason that I know that I could never have made it).

[Whiskeyjack]

This is a good reason to not hold that kind of verisimilitude standard to a game with limited chargen resources.

[All4BigGuns]

No, the generation resources (of all types) need to be enough to accommodate such. I don't give a flying frak what someone who might abuse the system might do with it because that is completely irrelevant.

[MijRai]

I knew plenty of people who were merely average in their physical attributes, Guns.  I was in.  Hell, I was more physically fit before I went in than after I got through training.  Took me some time to get back to where I was before. 

Like I said, though; this was non-combat jobs (of which there are plenty).  Anyone meant to be on the front-lines should have higher than average physical attributes. 

And I'm more with Guns here; I'd prefer more resources that can be used to flesh a character out with the risk of min-maxing over what is currently available.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but some more accuracy would be nice if these characters are meant to be 'standard' runners who've managed to get some experience/come from a relevant background. 

[All4BigGuns]

Like I said, though; this was non-combat jobs (of which there are plenty).  Anyone meant to be on the front-lines should have higher than average physical attributes. 

Generally, when someone is putting forth that character concept, they're thinking the ones meant to be on the front lines. Very few people even consider the non-combat jobs

[FST_Gemstar]

Why not just use the printed materials to estimate this. Tour of Duty life modules give the basic stats/skills growth from touring a tour. It doesn't seem like much, though more tours would be more impressive.

[All4BigGuns]

Why not just use the printed materials to estimate this. Tour of Duty life modules give the basic stats/skills growth from touring a tour. It doesn't seem like much, though more tours would be more impressive.

Because, just like every other generation, the life modules suffers from the over-compensation from taking the ones who may or may not abuse things into account.

[MijRai]

I wasn't talking about them with those stats, I was talking your average military person.  I wouldn't even bother trying to make full special forces with CC (though I have a drop-out as a character written up for a game I used to be in).  You just can't get enough points scrounged up. 

It is hard enough to represent your normal soldier, was my point.  A Skills, B Attributes, C/D Nuyen or Race, E Magic to make your 'slightly above average' person?  Eugh. 

As far as Life Modules go, I'm just not a fan.  They may be better than a class system or a rigid tree to move through for CC, but not by too much.  Priority/Point-Buys give more flexibility, which lets you add your own twists to things. 

[FST_Gemstar]

i bring it up to illustrate that I don't think we can accurately simulate the stats of a serviceman in shadowrun or are supposed to. The game gives the stats of what it think simulates it, so I would take that as more "accurate" for the system.

UCAS Tour of Duty:
Basic training active skills: Firearms Group 1, First Aid 1, Navigation 1, Unarmed combat 1.

It's not accurate to real life, but I would say it's sufficient for the setting