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What do you do as a GM when...

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ScytheKnight

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« on: <03-27-16/1916:35> »
Heya all, had a situation come up in my game yesterday which while awesome, did leave me in a bit of a quandary about how to proceed. I've left the title of this open to possibly get other GMs asking their own questions of others as well.

So my question to my fellow GMs is what do you do when you're in the middle of a combat and find yourself edging closer and closer to that TPK point. On one hand it's great because you're making your players wondering how they're going to get out of this situation, on the other hand, if you push too hard you could wind up with one or more character deaths on your hands.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand the whole burning Edge to survive thing and when it's just the one character that's fine. But when the entire group is starting to hang by a thread you can rapidly wind up with a domino effect into a TPK.

So I guess, what are some ways you can step off the throttle a bit to keep the player's under threat, but still give them at least a little bit of breathing room without it being blatantly "I'm giving you a break so you don't die."?
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« Reply #1 on: <03-27-16/2016:32> »
I 'put on the kid gloves'.

NPCs start 'failing' more rolls, escape openings appear from battle damage. ("Your pretty sure that door at the end of the hallway has taken enough hits that a good boot should open it")

The trick is to do it in such a way that your players don't come to rely on it, or resent it.

A bad plan will always fail, and should.

But a good plan, failing because of dice, shouldn't happen. (And lets face it, if you've played long enough, you KNOW what I mean!)

Now, you have to sit back and figure out why you almost had a TPK.

Did they fuck up, walk to Lowfyr and pee in his coffee? Or some other Player driven dementia? If so, then they got what was coming. Move on :P

Was this a case of Dice Stink Eye, where the players dispite having good pools, couldn't roll themselves out fist fight with a kitten? Trust me, it CAN happen. (Ask me about the invincible golbin sometime!). Well nothing much you can do but maybe buy new dice? - if so check out GMfunkytown's dice, they are cool looking, and I think he sells them by the set. <And if not, SHOULD!>

Is this a case of you over matching the players? If so, stop it!:P No seriously, stop it. Its easier to start small, and slowly add dice to pools then it is starting big and trying to scale back. I find the guidelines for NPCs in the CRB to be just fine as a starting point.

Also be aware that good tactics on your part can make even weak mooks a TPK situation. And given the fact that you control the battlefield 99% of the time, its easy to plan out tactics and ambushes that even seasoned runners would be hard pressed to survive....know your group, a high degree of tactical thinking by you with a party full of "kick it in and spray lead" players generally means a TPK every time :P
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #2 on: <03-27-16/2048:07> »
The main thing that happened where some pretty disastrous soak rolls.

Street Shaman recklessly summons a Force 5 beast spirit, gets 0 net hits then critically glitches the soak roll using edge to downgrade to a normal glitch... entire table agreed best thing for a glitched drain soak was to take it as Physical. Street Shaman at 7/9P

Face, side steps a couple of full auto attacks with grazing hits. Next round a 3 shot burst nails him and he pretty much flubs the soak check despite no - AP on the attack. 7/10P

NPC Troll Physadept gets almost ripped in half by a Plasma and drops to about 12/14P. (you can perhaps guess what we ran through by now)

The Archey Adept and machine-gunner street sam in the tower get sprayed by suppressing fire. The adept doesn't have initiative to hit the deck, but dodges the attack. The street sam with Superhuman Psychosis responds with the finger and eats a couple of rounds in the chest, attack doesn't get through the armor but still more or less flubs the roll 9/10S

Archery adept gets fired at while under suppressing fire, isn't real able to dodge and eats a round with another poor soak roll. 6/10P

Basically there was only one soak roll on the player side for the entire battle that didn't result in 6+ damage in a single attack despite there being almost no AP.
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« Reply #3 on: <03-28-16/0015:01> »
That sounds like a 'Bad Dice Day'. Not much you can do about that....

Team wise, sounds like time for a tactical retreat.... and as a GM, you 'let' them...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #4 on: <03-28-16/0018:15> »
Well as it turned out the bound earth spirit resisted an improved invisibility spell and was able to toss a bolder at the leader... one glitched defense roll and a resultingly low soak roll later and the wendigo leading the cultists was down... something that kinda freaked out the cultists and sent them running.
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Richtenstahl

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« Reply #5 on: <03-28-16/0923:13> »
Jup, well handeled, and ther eyou answer your own questioin.  ;)
I must confess I haven't had many situations going toward TPK.  Oh, well, that one when the players discovered that NPCs can use grenades too. While they were hunkering in a narrow corridor. But well, it didn't end in a TPK, so it doesn't really count.  ;D
I had dead PCs though, and while I don't actively try to get there, I accept it. My players know it and they tread carefully (well, most of the time).

adzling

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« Reply #6 on: <03-28-16/1047:54> »
Hey I know that run from Sprawl Wilds!

I ran my team through it and they completely smashed the assault on the ranch.

Then, oddly, when they tracked the attackers back to dome city / whatever the team leader (a combat adept no less) ends up in melee with two combat knife wielding cultists and nearly gets waxed....

fun times.

Mirikon

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« Reply #7 on: <03-28-16/1244:40> »
If you're rolling behind a screen, then it is easy to fudge a couple rolls in your players' direction. If you're rolling in the open, however, then that isn't going to fly.

Having been on both sides of a TPK before, I'll just say this. Don't be afraid of dealing one out to your group. Does this mean you should set up deathtraps everywhere ("Rocks fall, everyone dies.")? Of course not. But if they're going into combat, much less a secure facility or even a Zero Zone, then a TPK has to be on the table. If your group gets too cocky, too ambitious, too sloppy, or too stupid, whatever the case may be, then don't feel bad about knocking them down a couple pegs. If they wind up in an ambush because they didn't check their corners or silence the alarms, then that's too bad. If they decided to brute force a bug nest, then it sucks to be them. If they pissed off Lofwyr in person, then smack them with your dice bag as you TPK them.

Quote from: Sun Tzu, The Art of War
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must be not attacked, towns which must be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed.

Most TPKs, in my experience, follow not because of the dice gods' fickle favor, but because players forget these two lines from The Art of War.

If the team knows the enemy, their weapons, tactics, and position, and also honestly considers their own capabilities, then a TPK becomes less likely. If they don't know the enemy's ability, but know their own, then even if overmatched, there is the potential to escape. If they don't know the enemy's ability, and don't know (or overestimate) their own, then a TPK is quite likely.

And if I have to explain the second one, then you ought to turn in your DM screen. Sometimes the only way to survive combat is to avoid it. Players who believe that, because they are PCs, they can charge the group of twenty men with assault rifles and two HMGs alone and come out fine on the other side literally NEED a TPK to give them a good dose of reality.

When done right, a TPK reinforces the game world for your players. Sure, you'll all be starting with new characters next week, but the lessons learned will stick with the group. When done maliciously, like when you purposefully spawn multiple monster attacks and disasters when playing SimCity just to see the flames (you know you've done it), then it will spark bitterness and may lead to the collapse of the group entirely. So the concerns over a TPK aren't unjustified. If it was Daimou Murphy that got them TPKd, then maybe throw them a bone to help them out (this leads into the ever popular 'wake up in prison' storyline). But as I said, if the players, either through arrogance, ignorance, or stupidity treat the situation as if they have plot armor and can't possibly be in over their heads, then a wake up call is in order.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #8 on: <03-28-16/1858:44> »
Hey I know that run from Sprawl Wilds!

I ran my team through it and they completely smashed the assault on the ranch.

Then, oddly, when they tracked the attackers back to dome city / whatever the team leader (a combat adept no less) ends up in melee with two combat knife wielding cultists and nearly gets waxed....

fun times.

Yeah they where pretty much smashing through everything so they got hit with everything, including the Wendigo who had to burn a point of Edge because the archer adept one shot it before it could do anything (gained automatic 4 net hits on the soak test, still had a steel barbed arrow embedded in it though)... it wasn't just the players flubbing soak rolls.
« Last Edit: <03-28-16/1900:24> by ScytheKnight »
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SirDamnALot

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« Reply #9 on: <03-31-16/0809:51> »
A good way to gimp your NPCs is to let them do called shots from Run & Gun. The dice penalty is crippling even for a compentent shooter and the actual damage is capped by hitzone.
Sure, if you manage the unlikely and invoke an effect, it is annoying to the victim, but most of the time not deadly.
And it may get the point accross, that with a busted knee and a broken hand, it may be the time to regroup and try another day ;)

Mr. Black

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« Reply #10 on: <04-04-16/0308:07> »
There is a reason runners buy DocWagon insurance, and why I tell my players horror stories about what happens when they don't have it. Once those bracelets start popping, the cavalry is only 5 minutes away (depending upon location and level of insurance of course.) As long as the characters aren't on corporate property, they are going to get picked up and patched up. The "bad guys" will know DocWagon is inbound as soon as they check the bleeding bodies-they are sure to see those bracelets, and won't want to stick around for the armored and heavily armed medivac to arrive. Or the players may be dragged by said bad guys off their property so they don't have to talk to DocWagon. Heck, the party and the bad guys may end up sharing a ride to the hospital! Either way, you can hand wave the bleeding out and just have your party wake up in the hospital.

DocWagon also helps as it is a money drain. The best levels have high premiums. And extended care (more than a day) has extra costs that aren't cheap. And the characters have to pay, as their organs and cyber wear are worth more than their bills. Read the small print, it is in their contracts. Health care is one of the reasons I don't worry about paying my players well. DocWagon is always willing to take it back for me.

As for stopping theTPK, I don't. They characters have Edge for a reason. They need to use it. As a GM, I can refresh their pools whenever I like. If they are treating it like a WOW healing potion, saving it for that "special time", they need to be reminded Edge is there to be spent. If a GM has been stingy refreshing it, it may be time for them to rethink it. If you are trying to pull back from a TPK, try refreshing a point of Edge for the party. And then do it again as needed end. Heck, refreshing the pool could be a warning to the players. Like a last chance to heal before a side-scrolling boss fight. "The van doors open and 3 people step out. Roll Initiative and refresh your Edge pools..."

Mirikon

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« Reply #11 on: <04-05-16/0228:41> »
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

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Teknodragon

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« Reply #12 on: <04-05-16/1348:27> »
Ok, first question is, can the players handle their characters dying? This affects how best to handle things. The Sixth world is only sunshine and unicorns in BTL, though.

I will say that as a player, the most fragged up times are the best, most memorable stories (the guy who betrayed us and aimed a heli gunship at us while NYC was about to be hit with a bioweapon...). If the group can chalk it up to a bad day and move on, play it through.

Otherwise, introduce complications for all. A competing team of runners. Random gang attack. Corrupt cops saving the runners... If they donate to the retirement fund. And these complications can come back to haunt them in a home game: everything has a price.

Also, if the opponents see they have the upper hand, let them get cocky, make a few mistakes, tactically. The called shots mentioned above. Getting stupid and going out in the open. Waving off drone or magic support.
Life is short, the night is long, and we still have ammo.

Beta

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« Reply #13 on: <04-05-16/1353:19> »
speaking of mistakes, one of my favorites is "The opposing mage decides to try and banish your (bound or ally) spirit"  Can't pull that one out too often, but putting a couple of die penalty on the opposing spell caster can make a big difference in some situations.  Of course, I only do that if the PC still occasionally tries banishing ....

Helena

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« Reply #14 on: <04-05-16/1753:44> »
I agree a lot depends on player's attitude. If they have bit off more than they can chew, they can try to retreat. If they haven't urinated into the CEOs cereals and nuked the first security shift with all their families, surrender is also always an option. One of the biggest issues I have with some players (and myself back when I was a green GM) was that its often assumed that all involved fight to the death. Especially with corpsec, competence ratings help to estimate how much hurt the sec-boys are willing to take before retreating. Live to fight another day and also being corporate prisoners (with an ace up their sleeve to escape ?) is a new and potentially exciting challenge to deal with for players, provided they are willing to go along with it and don't balk at the prospect of their chars being 'defeated' by some corp-secs.