[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Centering is a great metamagic, may not be the very first mages take, but in the top 3 metamagics.

The act of spellcasting or its immediate effects are what is noticeable. High force spells (8+) are generally either noticeable or there effects are so major that they last long enough for some muggle to see it.

Majority of the spells don't have a glow, otherwise improved invisibility would be worthless, much less physical mask.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Senko
Now you're just being pedantic, and you know it

And yes, Harlequin could cast a Force 30 spell and the Perception test to notice him casting it would be 1. That kind of spell would probably be felt quite strongly by magicians in the immediate vicinity, by the way, given that his signature would be imprinted for 30 hours or whatever his Metamagics reduce it to.

But to address your point; you're emphasizing three words out of a long paragraph; the fact that the writers felt the need to call out that magic is rarely subtle is kind of my point. You may not play it like that, and that's fine; your table, your rules. If you want magic to be subtle, do it. But the writers here are saying that magic is rarely subtle, and that it's sometimes A, sometimes B, and sometimes something else. Those uses of "sometimes" does not preclude the use of "rarely" as you seem to think it does, instead it emphasizes that point.

Again, the only time Magic in Shadowrun is subtle, at least according to the book, is when the spellcaster, conjurer, or what have you, is working with Magic that is of a Force significantly lower than his ability to handle (i.e. Magic Rating X - Force Rating Y = Perception Threshold of 1/2/3 or higher as dependent upon your table's use of the Perception skill amongst NPCs).

That being said, let's also keep in mind the following: most NPCs are about as observant as your average storm trooper. No Perception skill and an average Intuition of 3 means you're rolling 2 dice; that's an average 1 hit 55% of the time, but also an average critical glitch 27% of the time 2% of rolls, because of that sillyness where glitches now require more than half", and not just "half". And that's before you figure in modifiers like the -3 for not specifically looking for something, and/or the -2 for being distracted. So yeah, things are not quite as black and white as you seem to think the rules indicate. Again, the rules are a framework; use it to make the world come alive as you like. If the Perception test as written doesn't work for you, then change it. This is the general discussion forum, not the rules forum; RAW doesn't matter quite as much here as it does there if you ask me, but the rule is there if you want to use it or not.

[Reaver]

The "Nimbus" effect is something that is part of SR lore.

Originally, when a Shaman cast a spell or summoned a spirit, they would have a noticeable effect of a "Totem Mask", which was, a glowing visage of their Totem spirit (akin to a mentor now). And a Mage would get the "Nimbus" effect. Which was a glowing aura of dim blue-white light.

As the editions go on, more and less has been said of these effects, and with the new Unified Magic Theory, there is no longer a separation between  Shamanic magic and Hermetic magic. (Or academically, the difference is more personal then mechanical).


 AND.....

All this comes from edition changes and rules changes to simplify the game (you think SR is complex now ), and it's living history, so unless you know all the history you do miss things.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

The "Nimbus" effect is something that is part of SR lore.

Originally, when a Shaman cast a spell or summoned a spirit, they would have a noticeable effect of a "Totem Mask", which was, a glowing visage of their Totem spirit (akin to a mentor now). And a Mage would get the "Nimbus" effect. Which was a glowing aura of dim blue-white light.

As the editions go on, more and less has been said of these effects, and with the new Unified Magic Theory, there is no longer a separation between  Shamanic magic and Hermetic magic. (Or academically, the difference is more personal then mechanical).


 AND.....

All this comes from edition changes and rules changes to simplify the game (you think SR is complex now ), and it's living history, so unless you know all the history you do miss things.

I will say one thing I have enjoyed is the explaination that magic is more about beliefs than actual mechanics of mana flow, mana goes where the magic user (go 1st ed/AD&D) wants the mana to go. Hence the loss of spells for only one type of "mage" or the other.

[Jack_Spade]

@topic

The best way to not be shot at is to have done your work beforehand, namely having buffed all the other fighters into top condition and only sending a spirit with them.

If that's to boring for you, invest in Increase Reflexes and rock a Ini in the high 30ies so you can afford to go full defense all the time

@visible magic

As the editions go the timeline advances and so do mana levels. Just as you now can't ground spells anymore spells become more natural to the world and are harder to notice.

[SichoPhiend]

I just wanted to point one thing out, since I really don't have a problem with the noticing magic thing.

Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic, or 6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either case). <znip> You get a + 2 dice pool modifier on this test if you have any magic-related Active or Knowledge Skill.

As the perception test is variable based on the Magic attribute of the spellcaster, it depends. Let's take Harlequin and compare him to a relatively strong magician going by Shadowrun fiction (Magic attribute of 6). As of Street Legends, Harlequin has a Magic Attribute of 30; effectively, he is stronger than your beginning Shadowrunner by a factor of 5, and could easily cast a Force 20 spell without being seen as it would take a Perception test with a threshold of of (30-20=10) for anyone to notice the effects. So yeah, Harlequin is a bit of a special case, obviously

Harlequin is not going to be throwing force 20 spells without being noticed.

As pointed out on p.280, the threshold is based on the Skill Rating being used, not their Magic rating, not their dice pool.  And currently the highest rating in a skill is 13.  That means that even for Harlequin (Assuming that he has a rating of 13 in spellcasting, and I assume so) will have a threshold of 1 to have his force 12 or greater spells spotted.

Now I absolutely agree that this is a perception test and as per the perception skill, perception test modifiers will be involved. 

[Herr Brackhaus]

Good catch, SichoPhiend. Spot on; the current statline for Harlequin, which is from 4th Edition, gives him Spellcasting (Illusion) 6 (+2), so 12 or even 13 is probably appropriate for him. To be fair, it also gives the GM pretty much carte blanche to have Harlequin do whatever the heck he wants. The stat line straight out states that "The initiate grade and Magic attribute given here do not necessarily represent the upper limits of Harlequin’s magical capacity, merely the upper limits of what the Sixth World is likely to require of him."

[SichoPhiend]

Yeah, honestly I wouldn't want to be around to try my luck perceiving him slinging a spell.  If he starts casting, it's historically bad to be on the other end of it, or not.  When he's in town, the work flows and flows and flows, usually down hill for anyone stupid enough to say yes to him.  And lets face it, not many people have the cojones to tell him no.

[Senko]

I just wanted to point one thing out, since I really don't have a problem with the noticing magic thing.

Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic, or 6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either case). <znip> You get a + 2 dice pool modifier on this test if you have any magic-related Active or Knowledge Skill.

As the perception test is variable based on the Magic attribute of the spellcaster, it depends. Let's take Harlequin and compare him to a relatively strong magician going by Shadowrun fiction (Magic attribute of 6). As of Street Legends, Harlequin has a Magic Attribute of 30; effectively, he is stronger than your beginning Shadowrunner by a factor of 5, and could easily cast a Force 20 spell without being seen as it would take a Perception test with a threshold of of (30-20=10) for anyone to notice the effects. So yeah, Harlequin is a bit of a special case, obviously

Harlequin is not going to be throwing force 20 spells without being noticed.

As pointed out on p.280, the threshold is based on the Skill Rating being used, not their Magic rating, not their dice pool.  And currently the highest rating in a skill is 13.  That means that even for Harlequin (Assuming that he has a rating of 13 in spellcasting, and I assume so) will have a threshold of 1 to have his force 12 or greater spells spotted.

Now I absolutely agree that this is a perception test and as per the perception skill, perception test modifiers will be involved.

That was actually why I said he lit up like a flash bomb when casting at maximum power I'd just gotten up after about 3 hours sleep so I bungled it thank you. I'm also a little concerned about that skill - force or 6 -force part but haven't had time to check my books to see it properly in context yet.

I'm not being pedantic or at least I'm not trying to be, I'm not even arguing most magic's going to be unnoticed indirect combat spells aren't subtle, healing magic isn't subtle, levitation isn't subtle. What concerns me is that there is a world of difference between magic is rarely subtle and sometimes accompanied by tells vs magic is never subtle and always (or even if powerful enough) accompanied by spells.

To give an example a mage is being followed by someone and know it. They board a crowded train, wait a few stops then use a high force control thoughts to make the person not follow them off and wait say 3 stations before doing anything. That to me should be one of those subtle cases no chanting, no flashy effects, no sign to the general passengers that anything happened at all. With the perception check however and all these tells you guarantee at least one person probably several on that carriage will notice magic has happened and knowing people will pitch s fit about it. That's what worries me. There's a lot of situations where the difference between subtle and unnoticed spells can affect the entire course of a game. Now I do agree a lot of spells aren't going to be subtle but there are also plenty that are.

As for the glowing mask/nimbus I really do wish the developers would make a off available listing "legacy elements from earlier editions not mentioned" and "thematic elements from earlier editions that are no longer valid" because this isn't the first time I've been involved in a debate based on something that was spelled out in an earlier edition and either not mentioned or changed in this one.

[MijRai]

Yeah, honestly I wouldn't want to be around to try my luck perceiving him slinging a spell.  If he starts casting, it's historically bad to be on the other end of it, or not.  When he's in town, the work flows and flows and flows, usually down hill for anyone stupid enough to say yes to him.  And lets face it, not many people have the cojones to tell him no.

It isn't always bad!  Sometimes it is 'merely' a Mass Destroy Pants spell! 

[SichoPhiend]

As for the glowing mask/nimbus I really do wish the developers would make a off available listing "legacy elements from earlier editions not mentioned" and "thematic elements from earlier editions that are no longer valid" because this isn't the first time I've been involved in a debate based on something that was spelled out in an earlier edition and either not mentioned or changed in this one.

Preaching to the choir, and given the many posts I've read with this in it somewhere, it's a rather large choir.

To give an example a mage is being followed by someone and know it. They board a crowded train, wait a few stops then use a high force control thoughts to make the person not follow them off and wait say 3 stations before doing anything. That to me should be one of those subtle cases no chanting, no flashy effects, no sign to the general passengers that anything happened at all. With the perception check however and all these tells you guarantee at least one person probably several on that carriage will notice magic has happened and knowing people will pitch s fit about it. That's what worries me. There's a lot of situations where the difference between subtle and unnoticed spells can affect the entire course of a game. Now I do agree a lot of spells aren't going to be subtle but there are also plenty that are.

This all comes down to the GM, truth is you would have a pretty good chance of getting away with this.

Yes there are a lot of people, but lets be honest, most will have Intuition of 3, and very few will have any perception skill, most people really don't spend time learning how to observe their environment.  So most of these commuters will have a die pool of 2 (Intuition -1) and being a crowded subway train are distracted -2 (they just want to get where they are going, some to the point of being willingly oblivious to things around them), so right out of the gate most people won't even get a roll.  Those few that still have a positive pool may have further issues such as the lovely interfering sights, smells and sounds of the Subway (Crowd of people that you have to try to see thru, the sound of the little old lady that chose the observer to be the recipient of her life story, and the smell of the puke that the gangers left in the car from the night before) for an additional -2.  Then there are the proximity penalties, people at the other end of the car will probably be at another -2.

These add up, in truth very few people would be able to roll a perception check in this scenario, and if you do your check first to see who has an interest in you, you can try to maneuver yourself in such a way to maximize their penalties before casting.

Option 2, cast at very low force and pre-edge to blow your limit, this sets the threshold much higher on the perception, but may not effect the target as long.  This really depends on if you think someone has a legitimate chance to notice you, like the Lone Star cop you noticed getting on that seems to already be looking for someone.

[Herr Brackhaus]

What SichoPhiend said

Senko
Low Force + Edge or Reagents = very hard to spot magic. Overcasting or casting spells at Force (Spellcasting skill -1) = relatively easily perceivable Magic to people who are not distracted and/or have Active or Knowledge skills that relate to Magic. The average NPC on the train isn't going to notice, but the Horizon wagemage on his way home just might; and that's where you GM might decide to roll for it.

I for one am absolutely not suggestion your roll for every NPC around you, in your example everyone on the train. And like SichoPhiend, I'm also saying that most of those NPCs would never get a roll even if you did decide to do so, simply because of perception modifiers.

[Senko]

If you apply the modifiers which is a GM call since as mentioned earlier the perception check to notice magic doesn't actually mention any penalties it's just a straight opposed check. If it did mention all those penalties your applying I'd have less of an issue with it.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Not quite; it's a success test, not an opposed one.

Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic, or 6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either case).

And technically, everything is a GM call

[Senko]

Which is great till you get a Gm who applies the rules as written and feels mages are too powerful anyway I've had them in fact I know one who'd apply that check to the entire train as there's no mention of range or LOS and the chills/dread/unnatural feelings says you just need to be nearby to sense it

I'd rather avoid reagents because pulling out a handful of X moves it away from subtle casting and low force +edge it just better be the right time/have a high edge is all I've to say on that.

Like I said most magic isn't subtle I just don't personally agree with that check for the spells that are because channeling mana alerts everyone automatically because they feel it even if they're so cybered up they only have 0.01 essence left and are more unnatural than what your doing.

I also kind of choke on the whole cast a force 4 spell and people notice the magical channeling but sustain a force 15 one and its completely undetectable even if logically there should be a lot more mana being thrown about. Which doesn't even touch on the fact I feel letting non magic people notice when magic that isn't causing an obvious effect is being used treads on an area that should be either mage only or a specific magic sensitive quality.  If mana can only be used by certain individuals (as in this system) then it's manipulation should only be sensed BY those individuals with ordinary people being able to see obvious effects fireballs, illusions, transformation into an animal but not the actual manipulation of mana or effects that aren't immediately obvious such as a mage enhancing their reaction time for something in the future.