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Why is Seattle Metroplex's population so low?

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MijRai

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« Reply #30 on: <04-27-16/1002:34> »
Well, legally speaking, 'part-time' is only applicable if you work less than 30 hours a week. 

40-50 is closer to the 'average' job.  Now, wanting to impress people and do better?  Your wageslaves in Shadowrun are generally doing 60+ if they want advancement, and if someone comes along with that kind of attitude there's a chance they'll find themselves out of a job (at least in that department). 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Crimsondude

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« Reply #31 on: <04-27-16/1007:02> »
Legal where? ;)

MijRai

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« Reply #32 on: <04-27-16/1049:21> »
Good point, Shadowrun setting probably ignores ALL of that. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Senko

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« Reply #33 on: <04-27-16/1348:40> »
https://hbr.org/2006/12/extreme-jobs-the-dangerous-allure-of-the-70-hour-workweek we're working more and more hours whereas recent studies http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-19/proof-that-working-less-is-actually-better-for-your-brain/7337436 seem to indicate working even a "standard" week is potentially bad for your health. Apply that to a shadowrun world and I can see the wageslave working 70 hours full time and the elite working 30.

MijRai

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« Reply #34 on: <04-27-16/1416:29> »
I wouldn't agree with that, Senko.  So what if you're elite?  If you work 30 hours and your rival works 40, someone is going to have an advantage, and the minor health benefits (which you could get from your super-medical program) aren't stacked in your favor.  They might be 'at work' for only 40 hours a week, but they probably have their noses in their commlink a few hours a day on top of that, working so they keep their edge (and position).  I'd put upper management and the like at around 50-60 hours of work a week, depending on their schedule and concerns (if things aren't busy, they can slow down), whereas the lower tier is doing 60-70.  Any less and they might start replacing you with a drone or more willing employee. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Nightmare

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« Reply #35 on: <04-27-16/1432:02> »
40 hour workweek? You slacker. You'll never get ahead with a part-time attitude like that!

40 hrs? Work week? What are these odd words you spew? All the time, every time is work..even when sleeping...

Wakshaani

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« Reply #36 on: <04-28-16/0131:27> »
We've mentioned the 72 hour workweek a few times in publication. It's probably closer to 50-60 for most, but corporate drones are bkilling themselves to scratch ahead of the ratrace. Drugs and BTLs are everywhere to keep people moving, Matrix-based entertainment is handy as it lets you keep a smaller place to live, and burnout certainly happens as the urban life grinds people out.

Is it any wonder that every year, the Salish hit their immigration limit on Seattlieites who want to give it all up, toss away the suit, and go live with a pinkskin tribe?

(For the history-minded in the crowd, this used to be a HUGE issue in early American colonies... the hard work and oppressive society drove numerous settlers away to live with the native tribes.)

HobDobson

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« Reply #37 on: <04-28-16/0226:57> »
40 hrs? Work week? What are these odd words you spew? All the time, every time is work..even when sleeping...

"work week"? that's the designated time between weekly-scheduled recreational activities provided at minimal cost to enable greater efficiency with regard to corporate assets, right? I'd admit that 40 hours does seem woefully inadequate accounting for the remaining time, but as long as meal-times, rest periods, etc. can be leveraged with other HR-approved tasks and activities, who's counting? It all comes out to 168 hours in the end.

For that matter, who needs "retirement communities" when older-model assets can still be used to shore up the corporate culture, or conduct informal training  and surveillance?

So. Who's up for a run on one of Ares Macro-Tech's community living centers?

Senko

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« Reply #38 on: <04-28-16/0320:09> »
I wouldn't agree with that, Senko.  So what if you're elite?  If you work 30 hours and your rival works 40, someone is going to have an advantage, and the minor health benefits (which you could get from your super-medical program) aren't stacked in your favor.  They might be 'at work' for only 40 hours a week, but they probably have their noses in their commlink a few hours a day on top of that, working so they keep their edge (and position).  I'd put upper management and the like at around 50-60 hours of work a week, depending on their schedule and concerns (if things aren't busy, they can slow down), whereas the lower tier is doing 60-70.  Any less and they might start replacing you with a drone or more willing employee.

I was actually thinking more work smarter not harder as I can see several professions (acting, mages, top level deckers) where you'd want them at their best not burnt out and if there is medical proof a shorter work week is actually more productive overall those "elite' professions would have protections to ensure your valuable resources are producing at their best not their most. What good does it do you to get 120 hours out of an employee you can't replace easily if the work they produce has simple errors that they missed because their exhausted, hate the job and are planning to quit (or try anyway). Which would you rather a mage who worked for 120 hours but had a habbit of saying the wrong words because they're exhausted or a mage who did less hours but who's quality of work was significantly better (and safer to your continued health) because they were alert and happy in their job?

MijRai

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« Reply #39 on: <04-28-16/1307:46> »
You're assuming it would be more productive overall.  I honestly doubt it would be more productive to work 30 hours than 50 (more than that and there probably would be more signs of problems).  And I don't know where you're getting 120 hour work-weeks in my post, because I never suggested that.  Wakshaani is saying 72 is closer to the norm for drones anyways.  It isn't like the megacorporations want you to enjoy a few decades of retirement on their dime; they'd probably be happy if by the time the wage-slave retires they've got a bad heart and will die within the decade (rather than three of them). 

The real goal of the megacorporations isn't to make people work that hard.  That generally involves things like compensation or pushes them to their limits in a negative way.  The real goal is to make them want to work that hard, motivate them to push themselves to the limit.  Sure, the job 'requires' 40 hours a week.  But everyone in the megacorporate culture knows that's 'slacking.'  And if you're slacking, someone more dedicated and productive than you will come along and take your job.  And if you want to get a promotion, you better be working harder than the people above you, otherwise you obviously don't deserve their spot in the hierarchy.  You know you're only getting paid for those forty hours, but if you don't want to lose that job, or if you want to get one that pays you better for your time, you have to put the work in.  One day, through sheer hard work and determination, you could become a manager.

Now, real secret behind this is that in a dystopic megacorporate future, there's a glass ceiling somewhere in there with very few holes; those holes are there to relieve pressure and let the higher-ups say 'see, you CAN work your way to the top if you try!'  Most people won't actually advance that far.  The few that do are either phenomenally good or are side-lined into something that doesn't really matter after their promotion ceremony was used for the propaganda that it is.  The majority of your management and higher-ups would have been hand-picked and groomed for those positions or acquired from other sources.  They just make it look like you can advance so you'll put as much effort into pleasing them as possible.  No kid will jump for the cookie hanging twenty feet in the air.  But if it dangles enticingly just out of reach, you'll have those kids climbing over each other to get at it.  Then you lower the string once in a while, a kid manages to snatch it, and all the other kids know there's a chance they get a cookie too, because they can see the crumbs all over that kid's face. 

Even wage-mages have to deal with this, because while they're rare, they're not that rare.  There's about as many competent magic users around as doctors or lawyers, per million.  Sure, you can't just train anyone to be a mage (not that everyone you'd try to train to be a doctor or lawyer would succeed either), but recruiting is as easy as going to a slum-school, assensing all the kids, and making scholarship offers to the ones who ding on your magical radar.  Not all of them will accept, or even pass, but some will.  It takes a little more time, but the loyalty is much better (given you're saving them from poverty and other problems of living in a slum, it is somewhat built-in).  And now there's competition between those wage-mages.  It isn't as much about the risk of losing your job; it is more about the opportunity to get a better one.  Having magic doesn't make you immune to wanting to improve your position and secure more pay, more rewards, etc.  It's a competitive megacorporate culture, after-all.  Do you want to be the lackey summoning test spirits until you almost pass out from Drain every day, the mage who uses assensing to supervise and record the results of the testing, or the boss who is getting all the credit for your hard work and going on a cruise-liner in the Carib League as a reward for it?  You don't want to be the first one, do you? 

Burn-out/exhaustion is totally a thing that can happen to higher-ups anyways; one of the main kinds of extractions is the rich, well-paid wage-slave who is unhappy with his workplace paying you to get them out of there. 

Another facet of the dystopic megacorporate culture to remember is that your happiness and comfort are not priorities, ever.  Your efficiency/productivity is what matters, and if giving you a vacation once in a while is what boosts your productivity, that's what they'll do.  If drugging your tap water with drugs to alter your mood is what will boost your productivity, that's what they'll do.  If holding your family hostage is what will boost your productivity, that's what they'll do.  If you aren't worth it and someone else is, they'll drop you out of that position and replace you.  You're not a person, you're a tool, a cog.  If you aren't running perfectly, they might apply a little grease or file off some rough edges for you; or they'll flat-out remove you and replace you with a better part.  Getting a new cog and gears is easier than maintaining one that is past its prime, and if you're a more special kind of tool, maybe they'll keep you going a bit longer.  Once you can't keep up, though?  Once you tip the line between cost-effective and a drain of resources?  Either you're going to be fixed or gone. 
« Last Edit: <04-28-16/1425:44> by MijRai »
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Senko

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« Reply #40 on: <04-28-16/1328:04> »
I'm not getting 120 from your post I'm getting it from mine and the first article I linked, the 30 hours being better quality is the second one I linked where they found people perform worse at the extremes 0 hours and greater than 30. As for comfort vs productivity as you said there are times when you get more out of people by ensuring their happy and well rested then driving them to the limits. I'd actually include doctors in that category as well just like you don't want a mage messing up a ward spell and summoning a bunch of insect spirits you don't want a doctor accidentally removing your liver rather than your apendix. Even in corporations today there are skill sets that are simply too valuable to push the person too much. Take where I work they've got a shortage of engineers but they can find more so they tend to push them, on the other hand there's one weird computer signalling system that only 2 people in Austalia actually know the ins and outs of and they'd rather pay one of them large sums of menu to contract when needed than train someone knew to use it. Even with easier things they can and do make decisions that don't make sense financially. The defensive driver trainer recently quit and even though they're sending out memo's and new procedures because the company has already had over a million dollars in damage to company vehicles they'd still rather send someone off to an external course costing several grand than get a new internal trainer who can supply the course at a few hundred dollars.

Still I'll let it drop here since I suspect this is under one of those personal view things where neither of us is going to convince the other to change their views.

Reaver

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« Reply #41 on: <04-28-16/1518:54> »
For the record, in the industrial world 10 to 12 hour WORK (as in hours worked, minus two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. So add an hour to that for time on site) day is not uncommon. Add to that a 90minute commute both ways....

So we are at 14 to 16 hours with commute, breaks and work in a 24 hour day. And our contracts stem usually in 14-7, 20-8, 30-14, 43-18 day cycles.... so you are working up to 16 days, 43 days in a row with out a break. (And this is also why industrial workers can clear $10,000 a week. All the overtime and double time)

THIS IS NOW! Not SR ficton. I know many a lawyer who works more then 8 hours in a day as well...

Unless you are a public servant, or an educator, or a first line banking professional, the 35hour work week is a myth today. Don't care what any study has to say, regardless of its validity.

Spend some time in the developing world or 3rd world, and you realize that '40 hour work week' is even more horseshit. People in developing/3rd world countries 'work' 60 hour weeks just to NOT make ends meet, then do 30 to 60 more hours of sustenance work to fill in the gap. (Things like hauling water kilometers so they can drink and clean. Farming/hunting so they have food. Making clothing. Recycling for extra money.)

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Senko

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« Reply #42 on: <04-29-16/0344:45> »
That's why I linked both articles the first one is talking about what people actually work 60/70 in some cases 100+ with no holiday's to stay competitive in today's world, the second is talking about where people actually do perform better i.e. around 30 hours and that 0 is as bad as 70 in terms of quality of work. I was speculating on how that could influence a world like shadowrun with the expendable/easily replaceable assets pushed to work very long hours to stay competitive but the ones you want to keep are protected and work significantly less so you get better work out of them. I'm well aware of how long people actually work I'm not that ambitious or desire to make millions in a few years but I still leave home at 4:10 and get back at 5:10 so my "work" day is actually around 13 hours and I work 9 on, 5 off so I'll see an average work week of around 60 hours myself and the guy's chasing overtime to pay off debts and the like will often be working every weekend not just one so that by itself pushes that work up to 70 hours plus. Which doesn't even address the one's with a second job they do outside of work.
« Last Edit: <04-29-16/0350:53> by Senko »

Sterling

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« Reply #43 on: <04-29-16/0400:07> »

Unless you are a public servant, or an educator, or a first line banking professional, the 35hour work week is a myth today. Don't care what any study has to say, regardless of its validity.


That may indeed be the case in the USA, however in Europe there is a piece of legislation called the Working Time Directive.  It's a wordy, boring piece of legislation, but it boils down to the fact that nobody can be forced to work more than 48 hours per week.  You will be asked when joining a company if you wish to opt out, but if you don't then any attempt to push your working week beyond 48 hours is illegal.  You're also not allowed to work two shifts without a minimum 11 hour rest period between them.  You may change your mind about opting out at any time.

This isn't just office workers, but every single person not employed in a few specifically exempt professions (Armed Forces and Police Officers are the biggest exemptions).  Also, if you're self employed or a manager/executive who sets their own hours you're outside legislation.

Of course, this was all implemented after 1989 so in the Shadowrun universe it is unlikely to have ever existed.
"His name is Sterling. He’s an ex-pat Brit making a living as a fixer and a hacker in Metropole. He’s a rare blend of upstanding and fun...(so) listen to his experience."
>>Data Trails, p.82

Wakshaani

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« Reply #44 on: <04-29-16/1144:14> »
Remember, too, that Shadowrun corps are, essentially, robber barons from the Gilded Age. You're expected to work at a grinding pce, spend your cash at the company store, and watch management ruthlessly crush all opposition to their feudal monopoly. If you die the day you retire, that's a full win for them. Even better is if you hammer out through your productive years, then die after training your replacement having given the corp your best twenty years.

They ... are not nice people.

(Take a look back at the working conditions of the industrial age sometime. Yikes.)