[Thanael]

Senko, build your supposed average Joe Normal by hand with Karma and then build him using Life Modules from RF. Post the results and discuss.

Life modules might be for you in general.

Also don't listen to "them" and just do not raise relevant skills to 6. Use 4 maybe 5 and a few at 3 or 4, pick up lots of rank 1 skills with karma during chargen. Sure it's not optimized, who cares.

I feel the discussion is too hung up on 0 ratings, let's discuss what 1-6 means. Is it a linear scale or exponential? Which level is professional? I feel the skill rating table in the core book can only be taken in context of attributes. Better to have a dice pool rating explained table.

I like Life Modules for giving a baseline view. Try it out with a few combination and see where you get. Add a few individual things and note the leftover karma. (You probably do not need all karma for avg Joe Normal) Notice how different things get if you choose different  paths. Try to build yourself with it.


Also check out this thread on mundane characters.

[Senko]

@Blue Rose
Yes I do, I quoted it because they say that is a common attitude in the community. You fail to see the point of my experiment fine I've admitted my way of playing is bad wrong fun so lets just let it drop ok?

@Thanael
It doesn't seem much point now as its been made very plain to me that kind of playing is bad wrong fun and I expect I'd just get more comments along Blue Roses line that I'm wasting my time even trying to make a pointless comparison.

I do actually prefer life modules although I would prefer a bit more karma to play with. I had made that "generic teen" by picking General UCAS, Arcology Living, High School. The skills they wound up with prior any other life experiences or runner specific real life modules were . . .

Athletics Group: 1
Chemistry: 1
Electronics Group: 2
Computer: 5
Software: 4
Etiquette: 3
Perception: 1

Knowledge Steet "City": 2
Knowledge Academic "Corporation": 3
Knowledge Street "Hometown/City": 1
Knowledge Academic "History": 1
Knowledge Academic "Any": 1
Knowledge Academic "Any": 1
Knowledge Street "UCAS": 1
Language "range of choices": 2
Knowledge "range of choices": 1
Knowledge "range of choices": 1

14 points to spend as desired from the attributes.

Body: 2
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Willpower: 2
Logic: 5
Intuition: 2
Charisma: 4

Recommended Age: 17

So for a pretty generic late teens not even been to college/university which add more skills knowledge and active and attribute points human we're looking at from as far as I can tell the dev's preferred build style 3 Group Skill points, 10 active skill points and 28 knowledge/language skill points and some 13 attribute points (Equally obviously I've just posted what you get only you could always combine some of those e.g having the same language to give you say Spanish 3 which I think a lot of American's learn). That's a lot of resources to invest for skills/attributes that aren't necessarily even related to your running role just a basic 17 year old's high school education.

As for your question I feel the current skill system is neither linear nor exponential there are some pretty big jumps in some areas and a very minor progression in others but I skipped breakfast to make this post and now I have to go to work, I'll be happy to discuss this more (and I'll look at that thread you linked) this weekend when I have time to properly spend on it.

[Blue Rose]

Bull alluded to a much milder mindset than the one you describe existing out there somewhere, yes. Are they here? Because you keep building that straw man as if you're talking about folks in this thread.

If you want to look at what the devs had in mind for characters' knowledge skills, why not look at the characters they actually made as examples.

Burned company man?  Surely went to school.

Knowledge skills?  Poetry 2, Psychology 3, Small Unit Tactics 2.  Does this mean the devs intend for this educated company man to not know even basic math, as there is no math skill on there?  Of course not.

I'd say the Run Faster archetypes are the clearer example.

And I would like to point out that by your own reasoning as presented, needing a nearly seasoned professional level of computer skills coming off of logic 5 (significantly above average)  just to graduate high school is patently absurd and clearly a relic of oddities in the life path system. That is not any reasonable depiction of an average high school student, even from the Renraku Arcology.

[Rosa]

Rosa: I strongly disagree. The mindset that if there are twelve magic skills, you must be good at all of them instead of having a dynamic ability profile, the idea that you can't have weaknesses?  THAT is what makes for shallower and less interesting characters.

I never said that you have to be equally good at all 12, that would be rather difficult under the current system. The problem with magic skills and the reasons why magicans have been hit the hardest by the skill diffusion is that, you cannot default magic skills, you either have them or you don't, period. No other archetypes in SR have this issue, save perhaps technomancers. So the game system has consistently since i was introduced to it moved towards more and more niche specialization. Some people might think thats a good thing, i find those characters 2-dimensional and boring ( others will disagree, i know, but their disagreement makes them no more right than i am, as this is opinion ) and what is worse for a RPG, they force your hand, choice is taken away from you...yeah yeah i know what people will say now, but you still have choice, between which skills to focus on and bla bla bla. Yes i have the choices i am being forced to take, which is no choice at all when you're being forced, i can either choose to make the kind of character catalyst have decided that we should aim for or i can make a hopelessly useless character, and anyone WHO thinks that this is not the reality needs to go and look at the threads in the character creation forums, it is not uncommon for people to be told to dump attributes ( seriously...some people think that a magican character is viable with a logic/intuition/charisma of 1, just because it isn't their drain stat?!? Their GM's must be really kind to those players, i know my GM would make me feel it if i ran arund with either a logic or charisma of 1 ) that aren't considered essential for their build or to drop skills that aren't considered essential for their build, notice that Word "build" it gets thrown around an awfull lot in the character generation forum, as if there is a correct way to make your character and anything that doesn't follow that is a Waste of time, tbh it reminds me a bit of MMORPG's and their talent trees.

Tbh i'm not against a certain level of skill diffusion and specialisation, i actually prefer the way it was in 4th edition, so i'm not advocating a return to 3rd edition, but here in 5th edition especially for magician characters due to no defaulting on magic skills, it has simply been taken a step too far.

[Reaver]

Keep this in mind when referring to magic skills:

SHOOTING
Skill (15) + Agility (12)+ mods (+4) = 31 dice.

this is pretty much the max.

From this, Damage is determined.

MAGIC:

Spellcasting (15) + Magic (unlimited!*) + Mods (unlimited!**)

There is no max, as magic has no upper cap. And since magic has no upper cap, Foci have no upper cap.

Damage is either determined by Net hits (force), OR force + net hits.....

So, damage potential is only limited by the force, which directly relates back to magic... thus unlimited.....




There is a reason mages are called "Karma sinks" and the nickname for the game is "Magicrun". The only thing that limits a mage's power really, is the karma available in a game. IF your game goes on long enough, the awakened in the party really start to outstrip everyone else in the group.

What good is the samurai in combat when his limitations are his weapons or his body compared to my mage that can easily throw Force 30 fireballs, hitting every thing within 70 meters for an average of 42p -15AP (if I buy successes), with only 2 stun damage (again if I buy successes)

Granted, I have over 4300 karma invested in my character which is vastly more then most players get to (I know of only 2 others on these forums who are not in my group), but it doesn't take that extreme level of karma to start to notice it.

Spells.
Spirits.
Rituals.
Alchemy.
Enchanting.

All ways to power, that are dependant on the magic stat in one way or the other, which essentially makes all the magic skills open ended in power and utility.... and you want to boil down this "karma sink" to fewer skills, allowing that power growth to happen quicker?

If you want less skills in your game, house rule it. That is what house rules are for.

But be careful when you start toying with the mechanics of a game, more then a few GMs have come here whining for help after their house rule Fubar'd their games.....
 

[Senko]

@Reaver
Sure that's a probelm at the extreme end but that's a lot of karma to get to 31 dice and for most they're going to need a higher number of mods to equal your shooter because they can't get their stats to 12 as any ware drops their magic resulting in a sort of offset situation from what I see. I also have no idea how you got 15 skill, none and this doesn't assume the mage will want to put karma into another role such as getting your high shooting or as close to it as they can.

I'm not saying it can't happen I've played with incredible minmaxers I just don't think a game should be balanced around the extreme edge cases when you have people who like to generalize, people who are new and don't know how to get that kind of power, people who simply don't play enough to get the karma/cash for that kind of power. In this case I agree with Rosa as I am very much inclined to put at least 1 point into every magic skill because that makes the difference between I roll 7 dice if I need to and I can't roll at all. However I get told that's a waste of creation points/karma because 7 dice isn't going to achieve anything worthwhile. I've also seen a lot of posts complaining about enchanting/alchemy and I'm not sure how those are a route to power but I'll take your word for it. Still if you don't want to allow fewer magic skills what's your view on removing the no default as again like Rosa said those are the only skills that have that limitation?

[Blue Rose]

I never said that you have to be equally good at all 12, that would be rather difficult under the current system. The problem with magic skills and the reasons why magicans have been hit the hardest by the skill diffusion is that, you cannot default magic skills, you either have them or you don't, period. No other archetypes in SR have this issue, save perhaps technomancers. So the game system has consistently since i was introduced to it moved towards more and more niche specialization. Some people might think thats a good thing, i find those characters 2-dimensional and boring ( others will disagree, i know, but their disagreement makes them no more right than i am, as this is opinion ) and what is worse for a RPG, they force your hand, choice is taken away from you...yeah yeah i know what people will say now, but you still have choice, between which skills to focus on and bla bla bla. Yes i have the choices i am being forced to take, which is no choice at all when you're being forced, i can either choose to make the kind of character catalyst have decided that we should aim for or i can make a hopelessly useless character, and anyone WHO thinks that this is not the reality needs to go and look at the threads in the character creation forums, it is not uncommon for people to be told to dump attributes ( seriously...some people think that a magican character is viable with a logic/intuition/charisma of 1, just because it isn't their drain stat?!? Their GM's must be really kind to those players, i know my GM would make me feel it if i ran arund with either a logic or charisma of 1 ) that aren't considered essential for their build or to drop skills that aren't considered essential for their build, notice that Word "build" it gets thrown around an awfull lot in the character generation forum, as if there is a correct way to make your character and anything that doesn't follow that is a Waste of time, tbh it reminds me a bit of MMORPG's and their talent trees.

Tbh i'm not against a certain level of skill diffusion and specialisation, i actually prefer the way it was in 4th edition, so i'm not advocating a return to 3rd edition, but here in 5th edition especially for magician characters due to no defaulting on magic skills, it has simply been taken a step too far.

So you can't make your character the way you want because some random schmucks on the internet who aren't even involved in this conversation will waggle their fingers at you?  Interesting.  I shouldn't think they would be relevant.

Old school, a shaman could not bind spirits, and a hermetic couldn't not bind spirits.  To this day, if you're Order of St. Sylvester or Order of the Temple, you can't summon or bind at all without the pope's direct approval.  If you don't have that papal approval, you either never learn/use those skills or you're a heretic.  Back in the day, no one knew alchemy.

And you can still do this stuff in the current edition.  Or rather, not do this stuff.

Mages still have the D&D style, "I have class features stronger than your entire class," thing going on.  You have significant liberty in making an effective mage.  And as long as summoning or spellcasting are one of the things you're pretty good at, you will be an effective runner almost automatically.

@Reaver
Sure that's a probelm at the extreme end but that's a lot of karma to get to 31 dice and for most they're going to need a higher number of mods to equal your shooter because they can't get their stats to 12 as any ware drops their magic resulting in a sort of offset situation from what I see. I also have no idea how you got 15 skill, none and this doesn't assume the mage will want to put karma into another role such as getting your high shooting or as close to it as they can.

I'm not saying it can't happen I've played with incredible minmaxers I just don't think a game should be balanced around the extreme edge cases when you have people who like to generalize, people who are new and don't know how to get that kind of power, people who simply don't play enough to get the karma/cash for that kind of power. In this case I agree with Rosa as I am very much inclined to put at least 1 point into every magic skill because that makes the difference between I roll 7 dice if I need to and I can't roll at all. However I get told that's a waste of creation points/karma because 7 dice isn't going to achieve anything worthwhile. I've also seen a lot of posts complaining about enchanting/alchemy and I'm not sure how those are a route to power but I'll take your word for it. Still if you don't want to allow fewer magic skills what's your view on removing the no default as again like Rosa said those are the only skills that have that limitation?

Through a combination of having a magic stat of Yes and using reagents to let you get lots and lots of hits, the mages don't really have to care about attributes other than Magic too terribly much.

That said, when your magic score is Yes, you can afford to spend a little bit of it to get a few key upgrades.  And you already have the ability to cast Increase Attribute to easily hit your augmented max, so the only real bit of 'ware you'd need to hit 12 in a drain stat is Genetic Optimization.

[Thanael]

I do actually prefer life modules although I would prefer a bit more karma to play with. I had made that "generic teen" by picking General UCAS, Arcology Living, High School. The skills they wound up with prior any other life experiences or runner specific real life modules were . . .

Athletics Group: 1
Chemistry: 1
Electronics Group: 2
Computer: 5
Software: 4
Etiquette: 3
Perception: 1

Knowledge Steet "City": 2
Knowledge Academic "Corporation": 3
Knowledge Street "Hometown/City": 1
Knowledge Academic "History": 1
Knowledge Academic "Any": 1
Knowledge Academic "Any": 1
Knowledge Street "UCAS": 1
Language "range of choices": 2
Knowledge "range of choices": 1
Knowledge "range of choices": 1

That's a very high computer/software skill for a high school kid. I feel like it's a design error. Probably no life module should provide any increase greater than +1.

Then I could see it for a gifted high school graduate.

14 points to spend as desired from the attributes.

Not sure what you mean by that?

Body: 2
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Willpower: 2
Logic: 5
Intuition: 2
Charisma: 4

there's something wrong here. Starting at 1 the modules give us Logic 4, Cha 3, rest 1.

Average sheltered Joe Normal is quite cerebral. Though I personally do not much like the attribute modifiers from the  Nationalities modules. Generic UCAS are smarter than all others? Talk about opening a can of worms...

Recommended Age: 17

So for a pretty generic late teens not even been to college/university which add more skills knowledge and active and attribute points human we're looking at from as far as I can tell the dev's preferred build style 3 Group Skill points, 10 active skill points and 28 knowledge/language skill points and some 13 attribute points (Equally obviously I've just posted what you get only you could always combine some of those e.g having the same language to give you say Spanish 3 which I think a lot of American's learn). That's a lot of resources to invest for skills/attributes that aren't necessarily even related to your running role just a basic 17 year old's high school education.

As for your question I feel the current skill system is neither linear nor exponential there are some pretty big jumps in some areas and a very minor progression in others but I skipped breakfast to make this post and now I have to go to work, I'll be happy to discuss this more (and I'll look at that thread you linked) this weekend when I have time to properly spend on it.

I think that both the life module system and the other systems do not represent a world building tool for joe normal. The life modules probably should do it better. Making them cheaper and provide only +1 each could do the trick. It leaves you with more customization and lower baseline skills/attributes.

You should not leave high school with an average computer 5/software4 IMO. Max 3 after three module makes more sense.

Also a broad group of average probably does not exist anymore in fantasy Dystopia. It's all over the place...

Let's say I liked the fun free interest knowledge skills always. I would probably houserule more interest skills into chargen.

[Hobbes]

I'm on the side where having a skill Untrained means you generally can't do it under pressure unless it is something intuitive/some other mitigating factor (like directions on the box).  If you don't have any points in it, why should we assume you can do it at a base proficiency?  Almost everyone has seen a sailboat go across the water, but that doesn't mean they can default and operate it.  And Senko has a good point on the car bit; I would never allow someone to just default on driving on a day-to-day basis, because no points in the skill means you don't know jack.  That includes not knowing traffic laws, or having the knowledge to get your license.  It doesn't mean you can't own a vehicle; you just use GridGuide like most folks do. 

It might not be the rules as written, but it's how I'd do things.

Not allowing defaults on skills in a system with so many niche skills is pretty rough, there is a reason its a Negative Quality.  Keep in mind a moderate difficulty unopposed test still needs two hits and you're not getting that with a low to average stats and 0 skill points without help.  (Edge, Gear, Assistance, whatever...)   And a difficult or opposed test becomes essentially impossible.  Instead of just flat saying "no" put the threshold at two or three hits and let the players figure it out.

You've got oddball cases like the 10 Agility Cyber Elf making a default check on Gymnastics, or the 9 Str Troll making a Climb check.  They're going to be able to do quite a bit with the default dice pool due to innate physical gifts.  But for the most part when a PC is defaulting they don't have superhuman stats.  Mainly because the first thing a PC with a Superhuman attribute does is throw 1 or 2 points into every skill that uses that stat  ; ) 

The defaulting rules are a key element to how the game works on the low end/average person scale.  Flat out refusing to let defaults work has amusing consequences to every day Sixth World life.  No defaulting on skills like Driving, Navigation, Survival, all get funny when applied to a metroplex of a couple million people. 

[PJ]

Not to mention a GM can allow you to default to another Skill, according to box on pg 130.  If that becomes norm, no big deal not having every conceivable skill for your runner.  Especially if you can default at -1 or -2.

Still, I think SR5 should have taken a cue from other RPGs that condensed Skills, not expand.

[Hobbes]

Normally if you see a different skill allowed it's simply a different threshold rather than a default with a penalty.  Player asks can I use X skill instead of Y, if it seems applicable to the situation you pick a random number between 1 and 4 and let the player roll.

The assorted B/R skills are good examples.  There is simply so much overlap in what those skills could conceivably cover you let a Player use what they have and carry on.  Repairing a Diesel Motor for example, how many different skills could be used?  Just because the Diesel motor is in a car, or a boat, or turns a conveyor or whatever it's still a Diesel motor.

[MijRai]

Like I said, Hobbes:
"generally can't do it under pressure unless it is something intuitive/some other mitigating factor (like directions on the box)."

I'm generally not letting anyone default on stuff like electronic warfare, piloting aircraft, etc. (unless you're being guided through it, at which point I'd probably make the Guide roll with a penalty for working through a proxy).   That said, navigating a region you're familiar with?  Sure.  Cooking a box of soy-steak while reading the instructions on the back?  Yeah, that works.  Most of the physical active skills and socials could likely be defaulted on, but I draw the line at high-level Technical stuff. 

Instead of letting people waste their time trying things when it is above their difficulty, maybe just tell them 'yeah, you can't do it.'  Sure, sometimes having the PCs hit a wall in-game can be useful, but this isn't even a wall.  It's a roll.  It also prevents folks from going 'I spend Edge and miraculously do just fine.'  I'm not a big fan of that usage. 

I'm also a big fan on the concept of 'if you want to be able to do something, spend the points on it.'  If you're playing a skills-intensive system, you generally have to allow for that. 

Besides, most of those people who 'drive' and 'navigate' the Metroplex aren't actually doing jack.  GridGuide is doing it for them.  If they're out on the streets 'surviving,' they probably have a couple points in Survival. 

[Banshee]

Keep this in mind when referring to magic skills:

SHOOTING
Skill (15) + Agility (12)+ mods (+4) = 31 dice.

this is pretty much the max.

From this, Damage is determined.

MAGIC:

Spellcasting (15) + Magic (unlimited!*) + Mods (unlimited!**)

There is no max, as magic has no upper cap. And since magic has no upper cap, Foci have no upper cap.

something doesn't add up here at face value, I'm curious how you get these numbers

max skill 12 + specialization 2 + Aptitude (14 karma btw) 1 + max attribute 8 + exceptional attribute (another 14 karma so you can't have both) 1 + max augmentations 4 = 28
only a 3 dice difference but still ... ??

while magic techincally has no upper limit considering that initiation is required to go above 6 (7 with exceptional attribute I know) and initiate grade can not exceed you magic rating, plus factor in bonding cost and availabilty ratings of foci ... at what point do you pass the point of worthless investment of karma? ... anyone plot this curve by chance?

[Reaver]

Keep this in mind when referring to magic skills:

SHOOTING
Skill (15) + Agility (12)+ mods (+4) = 31 dice.

this is pretty much the max.

From this, Damage is determined.

MAGIC:

Spellcasting (15) + Magic (unlimited!*) + Mods (unlimited!**)

There is no max, as magic has no upper cap. And since magic has no upper cap, Foci have no upper cap.

something doesn't add up here at face value, I'm curious how you get these numbers

max skill 12 + specialization 2 + Aptitude (14 karma btw) 1 + max attribute 8 + exceptional attribute (another 14 karma so you can't have both) 1 + max augmentations 4 = 28
only a 3 dice difference but still ... ??

while magic techincally has no upper limit considering that initiation is required to go above 6 (7 with exceptional attribute I know) and initiate grade can not exceed you magic rating, plus factor in bonding cost and availabilty ratings of foci ... at what point do you pass the point of worthless investment of karma? ... anyone plot this curve by chance?

Those numbers are pretty much the max that can be squeezed out, and even then, with a lot of work.

Skill (15) comes from the max of 12, +2 for specialization, and aptitude. (You can always buy traits and qualities after character generation. Just costs double)

Agility (12) comes from an elf (7 max normally) +1 for execptional attribute, +4 for max moding (however you choose to get there)

+4 modifier bonus addmittedly was rather abritrary. Smartlink for +2, and the other +2 for something/anything I missed (there are alot of little mods for firearms that can give a situational bonus)

And yes it depends on Karma, but that is not the point. The point is that there IS a limit on mundanes that isn't there on awakened.

No matter how much karma a Sammy has, he can not break that 31 dice limit*

But an awakened can continue to 'throw karma' into his dice pools through initiation and magic increases.

It there a point of diminishing returns? I would say yes, but where that point is, is going to change from table to table.....

And DECREASING the number of skills doesn't help with this issue, as the LESS skills there are, the LESS incentive a mage has to invest his karma in skills, and quicker ALL skills get 'maxed out'.... which leads you down additional problems.

But, like I said before: if you don't like how many skills there are, houserule to your heart's content. Just be aware of the consiquences.

[Senko]

@thaneal
In order.

Regarding the high computer Skill I could have gone with Sinless, Orphan, Street Kid which gives no skill higher than 3 but the point isn't really any one specific skill's rating its the number of skills overall that a 17 year old has in the life modules system.

Regarding the comment about 14 knowledge skills I meant you get knowledge points as normal under the life modules system so at that stage with those stats the character has 14 knowledge points they can spend on any knowledge/language they like. I was in a bit of a rush and left them unspent because they nicely balanced against the number of knowledge skills those life modules had given the character. Either you can spend them as per the rules for 28 knowledge skills or if you weren't making a character via life modules those background knowledge skills/languages would have cost all 14 points you have to spend.

Regarding the attributes your quite right this is made with herolab because I only had a short time before work and it added 1 to all attributes automatically they should have been lower and had a lower knowledge skills as a result my bad there. I can only say sorry I was in a rush and made a mistake. I have my own issues with the attribute increases but again the point isn't really whether or not I/you agree with them its this is what a dev set up as the skills gained by someone who's only 17.

Regarding Joe normal I agree I was merely using this to point out you do wind up with a lot of skills by the time you graduate school and the dev's life modules system indicates that as well.

In fact why not I made sure to drop the attributes to 1 this time here's an Ork orphan named Stubbins who grew up on the streets (SINless, Orphan, Street Kid). . .

Body: 5
Agility: 2
Reaction: 1
Strength: 3
Willpower: 3
Logic: 1
Intuition: 1
Charisma: 1

Bad Rep negative quality

Acting Group: 2
Stealth Group: 1
Clubs: 1
Computer: 2
Etiquette: 1
First Aid: 1
Gymnastics: 1
Intimidation: 1
Negotiation: 1
Perception: 3
Running: 1
Sneaking: 3
Survival: 1

Knowledge (City), Street: 5
Foster System, Profession: 3
History, Academic: 1
UCAS, Street: 1

English: N
Spanish: 1

Pretty tough little 17 year old and again a wide range of skills and knowledge's appropriate to their situation.

@Skill defaulting
Its already got a precedent for not being allowed in magic skills I can have 6 in counterspelling, 6 in spellcasting but if I don't have a point in ritual spellcasting I simply can't do it, at all, even though the skills should be pretty much the same in essence. Personally I'd be more inclined to treat it on a case by case basis (and tell my players I'll be doing that at the start). You want to default on a climb check, go ahead its something fairly straightforward and simple you just try to pull yourselves up. You want to default on a drive check by yourself no again I speak from personal experience that I couldn't just get into a car especially a manual and just drive it. Heck just yesterday I stalled the car of a guy at work because his cap on the gear stick had broken off and it unlike the other 4 work cars for our depot has reverse and 6th gear switched. You want to substitute a similar skill e.g one of the mechanic skills for another I'd probably allow that.

@Banshee
Good question I was more wondering at what karma point a mage passes a mundane in terms of how many dice they can roll so I had an idea how likely it was to hit it (if its at say 190 that's very different to needing 1,400). However at what point the karma investment to raise magic when you have to also initiate first hmmm . . .