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High armor PC's

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FastJack

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« Reply #105 on: <10-11-10/1420:28> »
You can go ahead and house rule the Stun rule for 1 point every time you get hit. Remember then, that when the bad guys unload everything on Usda and he gets knocked out in two rounds (and is too heavy for everyone to carry), it was your idea. ;D

Usda Beph

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« Reply #106 on: <10-11-10/1423:37> »
Part of the drawback of being as big as he is! ;) Hopefully my party is firing back while I'm distracting the enemy! ;)

He actually failed to climb a ladder cause it broke because of his weight! ::)
« Last Edit: <10-11-10/1425:08> by Usda Beph »
Yeah, I'm A Minotaur! You Gotta Beef with that?
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Devil

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« Reply #107 on: <10-11-10/1515:24> »
Nicely put Crit. But what constitutes as hitting then? That little old lady's purse cuts Lesner's/Tyson's face has he taken more damage than if the purse bruises them? As for house ruling, I was thinking that if you get shot/hit/Blown up but your armor absorbs it, guess what your body does too! Get shot wearing body armor, the armor keeps the damage from being leathal but the wearer still gets battered and bruised. The concussion of a grenade can kill/harm the crew of a tank even though the tank is unbreached.

So Give the runner 1 point of stun damage to represent the impact that almost caused mortal damage. That to me is a good rule of thumb. Please note I am suggesting this and I am our groups Bullet catcher! To me that adds some realism to getting shot!

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If you are wearing a bullet proof vest and someone shoots you in it... you got shot.

I you are wearing a helmet and someone punches you in the head you still got punched in the head.
You also get bruised and possibly broken bones or a concussion.

No offense, but I think you are missing the point I'm making. I guess it doesn't matter, but I think you are getting too wrapped up in the hypothetical situation, while not paying attention to the wording.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #108 on: <10-11-10/1526:13> »
Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less leathal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.
Yeah, I'm A Minotaur! You Gotta Beef with that?
I'm a Minotaur not a bully!
I studied at the Rocky Mountain Culinary School.I specialized in Seafood.
My Dad worked out of el Toro In New Mexico.

Mäx

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« Reply #109 on: <10-11-10/1534:14> »
If you take no damage you havent been hit,
Are you trying to say with a straight face that when some one hits me in the middle of my forehead with a paper ball, but i obviliously didn't take damage from that,so actually the paper ball missed me while it very clearly just hit me in the head.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Devil

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« Reply #110 on: <10-11-10/1551:31> »
Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less leathal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.

Let's say that you get punched in the helmet and it doesn't hurt you? You still got punched in the head.

I roll my attack with a gun. Let's say I hit.
I roll damage. Not enough to get past your armor.
I still hit you.

Now are you saying that you should take damage no matter what if you get hit? If that's not what you're saying, then what exactly are you saying?

FastJack

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« Reply #111 on: <10-11-10/1557:14> »
Usda, I think I see where the break down is.

When you were in body armor and got hit, you felt it, right? Now, you still felt the hit afterward. That's because the DV of the weapon was NOT higher than your Armor's Ballistic value, so the damage was transferred to Stun Damage instead of Physical. You're body didn't soak all the damage (you probably had one tough SOB in the unit that didn't flinch when hit), so you took some Stun damage.

Now, if they shot at you with a higher-powered rifle, there's a chance it could have gotten through your armor and caused physical damage instead of Stun. Heck, even if the bullet was stopped by the armor, you could have still taken Physical Damage since the weapon was high-powered enough that the armor couldn't soak all the damage and you got some nasty bruises (maybe even cracked ribs) from the shot.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #112 on: <10-11-10/1600:01> »
Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less leathal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.
I've also seen video of people getting shot while in some very heavy armor by an AK-47 at point blank range and not suffering any injuries from the impact.  Not even bruises.  That armor was, of course, not typical soldier's or police body armor, but something super heavy (for bomb squad, perhaps) that was many inches thick and cumbersome.

A "hit," in this case, is making contact and potentially causing damage from the attack.  Note the word "potentially."  With heavy enough armor, the strike may not do damage.  The target still got hit, they just didn't take a telling or damaging hit.

While you might object to the use of the word "hit" in this case, this really is personal preference and playing with semantics after this point.  The ruleset states that this is a "hit" and damage might be caused.

EDIT:  FJ posted a better example than I did.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Critias

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« Reply #113 on: <10-11-10/1901:56> »
Nicely put Crit. But what constitutes as hitting then?
What constitutes as hitting?  Succeeding on an attack roll.  You've HIT a baseball whether you clip it out into foul territory, smack it out of the park, or let out a weenie little bunt.  I've HIT you whether I've given you an open-palmed smack like on NCIS, a punch to the nose, or a flick with my fingertip.  I've HIT that Knight Errant squad car with my gun whether it was a shot to a tire, a shot to the engine block, or just a shot that takes off a rearview mirror.

I've DAMAGED only in a few of those instances above, but hit in every single one of them.  Describing the difference between a hit and a damaging hit is part of the GM's job, especially in a game as full of abstractions and over-the-top cinematic ability as Shadowrun is.

HIT and DAMAGE are two entirely separate things, and you keep acting like they're not, and I think that's the basic disconnect, here.

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That little old lady's purse cuts Lesner's/Tyson's face has he taken more damage than if the purse bruises them?
Yeah, probably.  But they got HIT in either instance, didn't they?  That's the difference between the little old lady's purse just thumping into a barrel-chested professional fighter, and the lady swinging wildly and not even connecting.

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As for house ruling, I was thinking that if you get shot/hit/Blown up but your armor absorbs it, guess what your body does too! Get shot wearing body armor, the armor keeps the damage from being leathal but the wearer still gets battered and bruised. The concussion of a grenade can kill/harm the crew of a tank even though the tank is unbreached.
Which is already partially what armor does, whenever the Ballistic/Impact rating is more powerful than the incoming attack (when folks take stun instead of lethal)...so it's already, at least partially, been represented in the rules.

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So Give the runner 1 point of stun damage to represent the impact that almost caused mortal damage. That to me is a good rule of thumb. Please note I am suggesting this and I am our groups Bullet catcher! To me that adds some realism to getting shot!
Sure, if that's what you and your game table wants to try.  But how much do you increase the cost/essence value of a Trauma Damper, now?  Because in a game with a rule like that, it's become THE piece of combat gear.

And get ready to be nickle-and-dimed to unconsciousness by every incoming attack.  The most ineffective, limp-wristed, open handed, untrained, wussy, smack on the chest (like in the classic "I hate you, I hate you, SOB SOB SOB" scene in an action flick) is going to start doing damage, regardless of the crying lady having Strength 1 and no Unarmed Combat dice, and of her slapping on a massive Troll's chest, who's wearing Form Fit, Security Armor, and has a buddy sustaining a massive Armor spell on him -- becuase, hey, that lady has "hit" him, right?

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #114 on: <10-12-10/0724:13> »
And if you have to house rule/GM fiat your own house rule to prevent this ridiculousness, just how good was the original house rule?
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Usda Beph

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« Reply #115 on: <10-12-10/0732:09> »
Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less lethal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.

Let's say that you get punched in the helmet and it doesn't hurt you? You still got punched in the head.

I roll my attack with a gun. Let's say I hit.
I roll damage. Not enough to get past your armor.
I still hit you.

Now are you saying that you should take damage no matter what if you get hit? If that's not what you're saying, then what exactly are you saying?
That is exactly it. For gaming purposes, if you ain't hurt you ain't hit. It bounces off your armor, you dodge it, the gods intervine and put a house fly in the way of the attack, whatever. Hit=Injured=Damage everything else is a miss because you didn't get hurt.

TV Cop show dialogue
Cop gets shot in the shoulder (HIT)
Line: "I'm Hit"

Cop gets shot in the BP vest(MISS)
Line:"I'm ok"
Yeah, I'm A Minotaur! You Gotta Beef with that?
I'm a Minotaur not a bully!
I studied at the Rocky Mountain Culinary School.I specialized in Seafood.
My Dad worked out of el Toro In New Mexico.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #116 on: <10-12-10/0746:26> »
And if you have to house rule/GM fiat your own house rule to prevent this ridiculousness, just how good was the original house rule?
The original house rule(CatLabs... What they made upo the rules they were house rule to them  ;) )Had allowed three guards to survivve 2 direct point blank hits from HE grenades with only a scratch and still were standing.

Critias examples:
I've HIT you whether I've given you an open-palmed smack like on NCIS; Yes and that stings 1 stun maybe
a punch to the nose(From a child) Bloody nose 1 stun
a punch to the nose(From A cage fighter) Broken nose 2 stun
or a flick with my fingertip Not enough force to register a hit in gaming terms
or a flick with Usda's fingertipIf he hits right you could end up dead if he flicks your larnex(sp?)

And with the exception of the finger flick each of those examples cause some damage and even the finger flick could make you say ouch!

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And get ready to be nickle-and-dimed to unconsciousness by every incoming attack.  The most ineffective, limp-wristed, open handed, untrained, wussy, smack on the chest (like in the classic "I hate you, I hate you, SOB SOB SOB" scene in an action flick) is going to start doing damage, regardless of the crying lady having Strength 1 and no Unarmed Combat dice, and of her slapping on a massive Troll's chest, who's wearing Form Fit, Security Armor, and has a buddy sustaining a massive Armor spell on him -- becuase, hey, that lady has "hit" him, right?
Tht's where discression comes in.Getting slapped isn't quite the same as the kinetic energy of a .357 shooting you in the armor. Not to mention if my Ex wife slapped you, you'd see stars (1 stun) :o


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I've also seen video of people getting shot while in some very heavy armor by an AK-47 at point blank range and not suffering any injuries from the impact
That's military grade assault armor. I can understand that having different rules ;)
« Last Edit: <10-12-10/0756:57> by Usda Beph »
Yeah, I'm A Minotaur! You Gotta Beef with that?
I'm a Minotaur not a bully!
I studied at the Rocky Mountain Culinary School.I specialized in Seafood.
My Dad worked out of el Toro In New Mexico.

Mäx

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« Reply #117 on: <10-12-10/0816:36> »
That is exactly it. For gaming purposes, if you ain't hurt you ain't hit.
And here lies your problem, your confusing 2 entirly different thinks.
In real life as well as shadowrun, hitting someone and doing damage to someone are 2 completdly different thinks that have almost nothing to do with each other.
It's not really the game systems problem if you cant understand what the term hit means. :P
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Usda Beph

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« Reply #118 on: <10-12-10/0933:48> »
That is exactly it. For gaming purposes, if you ain't hurt you ain't hit.
And here lies your problem, your confusing 2 entirly different thinks.
In real life as well as shadowrun, hitting someone and doing damage to someone are 2 completdly different thinks that have almost nothing to do with each other.
It's not really the game systems problem if you cant understand what the term hit means. :P
I guess the difference is when I hit someone they're getting hurt :P

I understand the simantics we are arguing gang. I just don't accept the given definition of hit in Shadowrun. My definition involves long years of experiencing what getting hit is. I was holding the boards for a blue belt who performed a spectacular breaking demo. With a straight punch the guy broke the third board... only. The crowd awwwed The black belt next to me was as shocked as I was. the energy of the punch bypassed the first 2 boards and hit the third. The punch "hit" ONLY the third board! SO had he punched me in the chest the force would have hit my heart and other soft tissues. That is the concussive force that the game mechanics can't handle and I know happens! That's why I just can't accept the whole hit but not damaged concept.
Yeah, I'm A Minotaur! You Gotta Beef with that?
I'm a Minotaur not a bully!
I studied at the Rocky Mountain Culinary School.I specialized in Seafood.
My Dad worked out of el Toro In New Mexico.

FastJack

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« Reply #119 on: <10-12-10/0947:40> »
Incorrect. He hit all THREE boards, but the first two were able to pass the energy through them instead of resisting the energy. This resulted in them being unbroken and the third being broken.

In your definition, hit means damaged. Unfortunately, it's all semantics since most gamers don't equate the two that way.

 

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