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Mages and Initiative

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LordGrizzle

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« on: <09-29-16/1649:49> »
Ok. So quick question: I am trying to build a full on battlemage but one thing I am not to sure how to approach it best is Initiative / Defense.

What is the best solution for increasing those stats? For Chromeboys and Adepts it's so easy, because your default initiative-booster can be practically be always on and on top of that increases reaction too which confers you with a ton of additional initiative & defense.

How should I go about this on a mage? Drugs? Buff Spells with Sustaining Foci? Just sacrifice a bit of essence to get something along the lines of a synaptic booster? Or should I better build a Mystic Adept and use Gateway for the situations when I actually have to go out of my body?

Any help is appreciated!

Thanks in advance,
LordGrizzle

Overbyte

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« Reply #1 on: <09-29-16/1719:49> »
"Standard" ways that people approach this:

1) Increased Reflexes Spell + Focused Concentration Quality
2) Increased Reflexes Spell + Health Spell Sustaining Focus
3) Take drugs.
4) Be a Mystic Adept   ;D
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

LordGrizzle

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« Reply #2 on: <09-29-16/1836:07> »
Thank you. I always forget about Focused Concentration. But one problem that can not so easily be addressed through Increase Reflexes is the defense pool. Do you think Increase Reaction in addition to Increase Reflexes is a good idea? Or should I rather shoot for another form of defense like Physical Barrier or Invisibility? Thoughts?

Kuirem

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« Reply #3 on: <09-29-16/1843:52> »
There is a spell for that : Combat Sense it's a Detection spell and it adds 1 dice for surprise and defense test per net hits. Note that the drain is F while Increase [Attribute] is F - 3 so Increase REA would probably be better but you can also stack the two if you want to go really high. Armor is an other good way to increase your survivability.

I recommend to pick Physical Barrier and Improved Invisibility anyway, these spells have too much utility not to have them.

A little trick to sustain all these buffs : buy some Sustaining Foci rating 1 and cast the spell Force 1 using Reagents to change the limit. Keep in mind that any Background Count or an enemy mage with Counterspelling would stop your buffs easily. If you find it too cheesy Bound Spirits can sustain spells for you.
« Last Edit: <09-29-16/1845:45> by Kuirem »

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <09-29-16/1908:39> »
Ah yes, the eternal question of "how to make a mage be combat survivable".

There are two basic approaches.... The first has been outlined. (Buff spells, foci, sustaining).

There are some drawbacks to this approach. The first is its resource intensive. Between karma, build points and cash, you can sink a lot into trying to buff up physical combat. The other issue is astral intersections with wards... you hit a ward unaware, and you will either lose all your sustained buffs, or collapse the barrier and alert the ward's mage.

The other approach is the 'stealth' approach. You rely on sneaking and invisibility to keep the attention of hostles on the meatier members of your team.
The key to this trick is trick is remaining unnoticed, so you want to use mana and other direct combat spells as they don't give off visual clues to your location. (Nothing says 'invisible mage!' Like a gout of flame coming from nothing!).

The drawback to this approach is that it is basically a one trick pony, and the astral plane (but less so then the first approach). You are also generally not as enhanced initiative wise... which limits your actions - or increases your opportunity costs.

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Remember the first rule of combat: Geek the mage first!

This isn't a saying, its a tactical doctrine of the 6th world! You look like a mage, you act like a mage, every bullet is comming for you first!

So, don't look or act like a mage! Avoid flashly displays of power, or light shows of elemental indirect spells. These paint a giant bulleye on your back. (And really, whats more terrorfying, a troll with an assault rifle OR a mage that can burn you and your squad to death with a flick of a finger?).

I generally use the second approach, as well as judical timing of actions during combat.... which means some combats I am doing nothing at all. After all, a mage is basically a one man arty unit. You don't use artillery on plebs, you use it on bunched enemies and to suppress..... which is exactly what I do.
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firebug

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« Reply #5 on: <09-29-16/2019:37> »
A great and easy way to boost your defense dice as a mage is Betameth and the Deflection spell with a Force 3 or 4 Sustaining Focus.  Together you can easily add around 6 more dice, which is pretty significant.
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drakir

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« Reply #6 on: <09-30-16/2217:01> »
I would go Intuition based and Exceptional Attribute Intuition. With 7 Intuition and 3 Reaction you have 10 dodge dice. Initiative will also be high. Combat Sense spell can increase defense. The cheese variant is focused concentration 1 and cast with reagents to raise limit. (This trick does not work on Increase Attribute spells due to wording)

Edge is also useful for getting high initiative. If I have a human mage I will go for 5 or even 7 edge. Combat seldom lasts many turns so if you can use edge the first combat turn it's almost over.
« Last Edit: <10-01-16/0936:54> by drakir »

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #7 on: <10-01-16/0701:39> »
Drugs+Detox is a great way to get your Ini up without suffering the consequences

But on the whole a high charisma+magic rating allows you to sneak through barriers with active spells. So just be an elf with a charisma tradition sneak through.

If that doesn't work: Drop the spell, go through, recast spell with reagents to set the limit, so it fits into your focus. The expenses are manageable, especially if you harvest them yourself.
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FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #8 on: <10-02-16/0116:12> »
I like running a Hermetic Mage with Narco, and some Cerebral Boosters. Willpower 5, Logic 6 (8) lets you handle drug addiction tests well, and really makes Psyche and Cram your wonder speedball. it'll give you +2 Reaction, +2 Intuition, and +1d6 initiative dice. It will also provide nice bonuses to perception, assensing, defense, and Drain. You can still through up some other sustained spells if you like, either with foci, or just running Psyche which turns your sustaining penalty to just -1. You also have .40 more essence to play with to keep max Magic at 5. 

And something I haven't seen on the list yet is Channeling. Though a metamagic, it may be less costly than 'waring up. joining with a most F6 spirits will give you +3 to Reaction and +1d6 to initiative.   

SoulGambit

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« Reply #9 on: <10-02-16/0955:48> »
I feel like Mystic Adepts are "meant" to be the battle mages of the 6th world. Is there any reason you would be opposed to making one?

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <10-02-16/1004:00> »
IMO, mystic adepts are...... tricky to build effectively for the early game.

Their karma costs make them very hard to get a good balance of skills, abilites and attributes without taking a large amount of negative qualities.

However, once you get the karma, they are almost overpowered.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

SoulGambit

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« Reply #11 on: <10-02-16/1050:23> »
One other thing to keep in mind is that 11 and 21 are the "magic" initiative values. Intuition 5 + Reaction 5 will take you very far, though it is attribute intensive. Hitting 21+ Initiative at creation is the realm of characters who primarily focus on combat. Are you trying to hit 21 initiative?

Mystic Adept can spend, iirc (away from books) 15 Karma to get Increased Reflexes 2 (which, when combined with Intuition 5 + Reaction 4 or better gets you to that threshold).

Spending Edge is an option for clutch situations. A sudden +4d6 (14 average) will bring you over 20 easily.

Drugs is another clutch option, but Kamikaze is the only drug that will make a difference. Or custom drugs.

Increased Reflexes spell is the last option without losing essence. Other people have discussed this in detail.

---

As for defense, ten dice is a nice start. If you meed more, your best bet is actually Full Defense--possibly with Agile Defender or something. 15-16 dice will avoid most attacks, at least until you get into fully automatic weapons. Even dodge-focused combat primary characters won't see more than 22 or so, and probably not that much.

Don't skimp on armor. Its just as important as dodge.




LordGrizzle

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« Reply #12 on: <10-02-16/1115:17> »
I feel like Mystic Adepts are "meant" to be the battle mages of the 6th world. Is there any reason you would be opposed to making one?

Well, the lack of Astral Projection for one, and for the other that they feel to me as being all over the place.

Thanks to all of you guys for your input. I have started building a character and when I get to something concrete I might post that for feedback.

halflingmage

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« Reply #13 on: <10-03-16/0219:14> »
I feel like Mystic Adepts are "meant" to be the battle mages of the 6th world. Is there any reason you would be opposed to making one?

Well, you give up astral projection and can only perceive astral if you take the adept power.  This is not a trivial loss, astral projection is very useful.

What you get for that is the ability to use an adept power for initiative instead of a spell you must sustain.  Its hard to overstate the power of a high initiative.  Further,, things like attribute boost, improved skill, and combat sense can greatly boost overall combat effectiveness.  Mystic adepts are good option for gun mages or mages that are going to have significant non-magical skills as you can leverage those skills with adept powers. 

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #14 on: <10-03-16/2305:34> »
CHA-mage. Too Pretty to Hit. Boom.

Well, you give up astral projection and can only perceive astral if you take the adept power.  This is not a trivial loss, astral projection is very useful.

It CAN be useful. I can't say I've EVER missed it though. YMMV.
Playability > verisimilitude.