[Redwulfe]

I was around when we had that kinda action economy. When a Sam would gun down the combat before you could even go if you where not initiative heavy. I don’t want to go back to that. It was a problem. I remembered GMing during those editions when you gunned down the party before most of them even had a chance to go. That’s why SR moved away from those systems.

If we use 1 pass then amount of majors needs to be limited.

[Michael Chandra]

I was around when we had that kinda action economy. When a Sam would gun down the combat before you could even go if you where not initiative heavy. I don’t want to go back to that. It was a problem. I remembered GMing during those editions when you gunned down the party before most of them even had a chance to go. That’s why SR moved away from those systems.

If we use 1 pass then amount of majors needs to be limited.

They are. You can at most get a second at the expense of four Minors.

[Mirikon]

Two main things I want to know:

1) Can hackers go back to staying in the van, so they can concentrate on owning the building, and we can get rid of 'everything is hackable by default because we felt bad about kicking hackers out of the van'?

2) Are Technomancers still stuck in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll bending them over with sandpaper condoms and ghost pepper sauce for lube?

[Banshee]

Two main things I want to know:

1) Can hackers go back to staying in the van, so they can concentrate on owning the building, and we can get rid of 'everything is hackable by default because we felt bad about kicking hackers out of the van'?

2) Are Technomancers still stuck in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll bending them over with sandpaper condoms and ghost pepper sauce for lube?

1. well honestly as long as they had the right links they could always stay back ... but while they can do that if they want most deckers will be more effective if they stick with their team most of the time, and since I replaced the mark system with a simple access tier system they can be immediately effective in just about any given situation.

2. no ... technomancers didn't get as much love as I wanted to give them due to space limitations in the book, they are definitely matrix powerhouses.

[Ghost Rigger]

Two main things I want to know:

1) Can hackers go back to staying in the van, so they can concentrate on owning the building, and we can get rid of 'everything is hackable by default because we felt bad about kicking hackers out of the van'?

2) Are Technomancers still stuck in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll bending them over with sandpaper condoms and ghost pepper sauce for lube?

Bold of you to assume they haven't advanced to a lube much higher on the Scoville scale.

[Hobbes]

2. no ... technomancers didn't get as much love as I wanted to give them due to space limitations in the book, they are definitely matrix powerhouses.

In 5E TMs usually had 3 ways of doing a Matrix thing.  Thread a CF, Order a Sprite, or just Hack it.  And they had to pay for all three of those things because Threading and Sprites both had gaps that couldn't be covered (Until Kill Code came out). 

Couple that with Living Persona Limits, and less access to dice pool Augmentations TMs were is rough shape for a long while. 

If TMs have a Resonance action for everything in the Matrix, they're probably in good shape.  *or* if they have access to similar but different Hacking Dice Pool buffs as Deckers, then they'll be fine as well.

In 5th, the Primed Charge CF caught TMs Hacking pools up to Deckers.  But there was still a gap in Resonance actions, couldn't get a Mark on a Host (Technoshaman Stream/Greater Sprite was the only way), and File Protection / Data Bombs didn't have a RAW way around them unless the GM let the Editor CF bypass them (decent argument for allowing that).  So essentially, you needed to still be a red-hot Hacker to handle Hosts and some files, and still needed Threading, Compiling, Registering, and a high Resonance.  So you wound up behind on Skill points, SAPs, and Attributes compared to a Decker.  It was a tough gap to overcome.

[Lormyr]

If you want your character him/her self to be the one doing the matrix deeds, then Technomancers are very difficult to build in a satisfactory manner. If you are content to run with the "optimal" build for them though, they are spectacular.

Our Missions Technomancer only really had compiling, computer, registering, and software for matrix skills. He relied on teamwork using sprites to handle pretty much anything matrix for us, while he ran around in hardened medium milspec armor with a diagnostics boosted monofilament whip vreeming the world. It was extremely effective.

[Finstersang]

If I´d have to say anything about it (which I don´t, I can only bitch around from the stand), Complex Forms should be much more direct in influencing technology. Instead of just "Matrix Action XYZ, but with a twist", some of them should be immediate effects with powers comparable to Spells as long as you are in a High-Tech environment: Power Shortages, Flickering Lights, Blackouts, Getting Invisible (or masked, or misplaced...) for Cameras and Sensors, Drones and Smartweapons misfiring, A Small EMP (dealing Matrix Damage in a certain Radius)...

[Marcus]

No PC is gaining more actions under 6e, Across the board PC are losing them. The piece Michael didn't include in his little demonstration is the NPC actions. When CT2 begins NPC also go again.  That means NPC are going to go much more often then in previous editions (Thus the point of the discussion).

What? NPCs play by the same rules as PCs. Comparing high initiative PCs with low initiative PCs is entirely relevant to comparing high or low initiative NPCs. There's nothing about this that inherently benefits NPCs more than PCs, all that matters is the difference between high initiative characters and low initiative characters, regardless of whether they're played by players or not.

And as I pointed out, with the new system, very high initiative characters can actually get more attacks in before low initiative characters finally get a turn, compared to the current system. Even a high initiative character can get multiple attacks against a nearly as high initiative character before the second one can respond, which is arguably even worse than the SR2 problem, where this would only happen against opponents with at least one initiative pass less.

I also worry about it feeling less like Shadowrun. But I do not worry about this benefiting NPCs more than PCs.

NPC are going to out number pcs in SR. This is a fact of the game, inherent to the concept. Initiative has meaning but action economy is more important. Everything seen to date shows that pcs won’t be dropping enemies as they did before. A character takes two attacks before the enemy goes is fine. If they are smart they will focus down on one target and remove it. But as far as soak goes pc that get are far more likely to take damage. That means it’s worse for npcs to get attacks off. Add in the edge options that greatly increase glitch likelyhood regardless of pool size and suddenly you have GMs who can turn a simple gang fight into high probability of pc injury or possibly even loss. Now sure some GMs will follows Hobbes’ advice but I’m betting many more will attempt to run as they always have and will be shocked when half or the whole table of PCs ends up dead.

[Shinobi Killfist]

No PC is gaining more actions under 6e, Across the board PC are losing them. The piece Michael didn't include in his little demonstration is the NPC actions. When CT2 begins NPC also go again.  That means NPC are going to go much more often then in previous editions (Thus the point of the discussion).

What? NPCs play by the same rules as PCs. Comparing high initiative PCs with low initiative PCs is entirely relevant to comparing high or low initiative NPCs. There's nothing about this that inherently benefits NPCs more than PCs, all that matters is the difference between high initiative characters and low initiative characters, regardless of whether they're played by players or not.

And as I pointed out, with the new system, very high initiative characters can actually get more attacks in before low initiative characters finally get a turn, compared to the current system. Even a high initiative character can get multiple attacks against a nearly as high initiative character before the second one can respond, which is arguably even worse than the SR2 problem, where this would only happen against opponents with at least one initiative pass less.

I also worry about it feeling less like Shadowrun. But I do not worry about this benefiting NPCs more than PCs.

NPC are going to out number pcs in SR. This is a fact of the game, inherent to the concept. Initiative has meaning but action economy is more important. Everything seen to date shows that pcs won’t be dropping enemies as they did before. A character takes two attacks before the enemy goes is fine. If they are smart they will focus down on one target and remove it. But as far as soak goes pc that get are far more likely to take damage. That means it’s worse for npcs to get attacks off. Add in the edge options that greatly increase glitch likelyhood regardless of pool size and suddenly you have GMs who can turn a simple gang fight into high probability of pc injury or possibly even loss. Now sure some GMs will follows Hobbes’ advice but I’m betting many more will attempt to run as they always have and will be shocked when half or the whole table of PCs ends up dead.

Even when you get used to it and make the “right” size encounters the players will seem far far less impressive. Well except  mages.

[AnotherUser]

How is watching the streetsam taking action after action, minor or major, any different from watching the hacker do his thing in previous editions?

Forget `more/fewer attacks` ... you won´t be able to even do anything. Even taking cover or running away.

You get to swoon at the sams/adepts doing their thing. And farming edge from people not in cover to maybe boost their initiative advantage even further.

That´s neither `empowering` nor `more interactive`. It´s SR2 all over again. It sucked.

[Mirikon]

Two main things I want to know:

1) Can hackers go back to staying in the van, so they can concentrate on owning the building, and we can get rid of 'everything is hackable by default because we felt bad about kicking hackers out of the van'?

2) Are Technomancers still stuck in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll bending them over with sandpaper condoms and ghost pepper sauce for lube?

Did the whole business of how a TM can't be part of a PAN unless they buy an overpriced as drek quality get dragged out behind the woodshed and shot? Because when you have a matrix character that can't secure their own damn gear, much less the party's gear, you know that someone has severely fucked up the works.

1. well honestly as long as they had the right links they could always stay back ... but while they can do that if they want most deckers will be more effective if they stick with their team most of the time, and since I replaced the mark system with a simple access tier system they can be immediately effective in just about any given situation.

2. no ... technomancers didn't get as much love as I wanted to give them due to space limitations in the book, they are definitely matrix powerhouses.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Did the whole business of how a TM can't be part of a PAN unless they buy an overpriced as drek quality get dragged out behind the woodshed and shot? Because when you have a matrix character that can't secure their own damn gear, much less the party's gear, you know that someone has severely fucked up the works.

Supposedly PANs / WANs are no longer a part of the game.

I base this on the collected info doc that states that there is no longer any master / slave matrix relationships.

EDITed to add:

"Master/slave networks have been removed."

From this document.

[Redwulfe]

I think that removing the master/slave is possible a good thing. I know there was some confusion when it came to this especially when it came to Hosts and device slaved to them and visibility of those devices and....

It confused me at least and if they cleared that all up I will be very happy with the new edition.

[Marcus]

How is watching the streetsam taking action after action, minor or major, any different from watching the hacker do his thing in previous editions?

Forget `more/fewer attacks` ... you won´t be able to even do anything. Even taking cover or running away.

You get to swoon at the sams/adepts doing their thing. And farming edge from people not in cover to maybe boost their initiative advantage even further.

That´s neither `empowering` nor `more interactive`. It´s SR2 all over again. It sucked.

So at most PC will have 2 attacks, further we don't actually know the initiative totally will even begin to look like.  So it's in no way 2nd repeated. As for farming edge we know you can't gain more then 2 points of edge per turn, so that's really not really relevant ether. 

Magic remains very much to be seen Shinobi, Drain appears to have been effectively doubled, and amping being +2 is going to make pushing it up fairly dangerous quickly. There are far to many unknowns and back and forth on magic to make a useful argument as yet. We don't know if there is a drain roll, we don't know what sort of damage results from drain, last time I checked we don't even really know what spells damage codes are or what elemental effects are.

We don't even know if Mages can get more then one action as yet.