[Shinobi Killfist]

My armor clothing doesn’t help in a fight, but damn can I schmooze at a cocktail party.

I always loved 2e concealing rules. Gimmicking the long coat with concealed holsters and high conceal weapons to make the TN like 10. I want conceal to be part of a guns stats again. All x class guns are the same didn’t work for me.

[Marcus]

Greatly reducing armors effectiveness will have its own set of consequences, and it is very likely over the course of an edition  we will see the 6e equivalent of Sleeping Tiger. I mean it may turn out that tables are tpk after tpk, and they roll back this rules in a hurry. Until we see the CRB and the average player starts making characters the argument is fairly meaningless.

Based on what we know, whatever Armor is value 3 or higher that has the "Best" other bonuses compared to the cost.  Hopefully there are enough good options that "Best" becomes subjective and arguable.

Just for the record, I didn't say "best", I said the equivalent of sleeping tiger and I meant the equivalent of sleeping tiger not "best" b/c as you said "best" is always going arguable. I still expect to see winner and losers in the armor department though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Greatly reducing armors effectiveness will have its own set of consequences, and it is very likely over the course of an edition  we will see the 6e equivalent of Sleeping Tiger. I mean it may turn out that tables are tpk after tpk, and they roll back this rules in a hurry. Until we see the CRB and the average player starts making characters the argument is fairly meaningless.

Based on what we know, whatever Armor is value 3 or higher that has the "Best" other bonuses compared to the cost.  Hopefully there are enough good options that "Best" becomes subjective and arguable.

Just for the record, I didn't say "best", I said the equivalent of sleeping tiger and I meant the equivalent of sleeping tiger not "best" b/c as you said "best" is always going arguable. I still expect to see winner and losers in the armor department though.

Same with guns. Hopefully not as obviously as the ares alpha but there will be a clear winner/loser in each category.

[kyoto kid]

Well whatever the faults are in 6e's armor system... at least it won't have 5e's flaw where you've got multiple books' worth of options but the only clothes virtually every character wears is Sleeping Tiger.

...my Rocker/Face in NT has ST for runs, Zoe Executive for those important meets, an Armoured Jacket for slumming it, and a Scout's Tux for those times you have to look good after a tussle.

[Cabral]

i don't know the motivations for the change but i don't agree with your summation of 5e unarmed vs. melee.

unarmed has a place for high security locations that don't permit weapons AND with correct choices unarmed can be almost as deadly as armed in 5e (bone lacing, striking calluses, knucks, adept powers, etc).

So, your argument is that unarmed is effective is based on being armed with cyber and bio weapons? I would recommend the application of indirect unarmed techniques such as throws, holds, and other subdual techniques.

the reason why people use weapons irl is because THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE than your fists and feet. To not have that reflected in-game seems idiotic to me tbh.

It's my impression that in 6e it is possible to have characters with strength sufficiently high to exceed the weapon damage while using unarmed. If so, your argument is actually that 6e is idiotic by your standards. My understanding of what is achievable in 6e may be flawed.

While strength being less necessary (not unnecessary) for certain blades (such as a monofilament sword, but not a combat axe) makes some sense, it very much does not for most clubs.

[Cabral]

I will try to address your points as best as I cam
Defense - yes a properly equipped decker will far outshine someone with just a commlink  for matrix defense .. so without a decker (or TM) on your side you will be leaving yourself pretty vulnerable to being hacked ... that leaves how you equip yourself as being the limiter on how detrimental that is

To infer: The other  tech archetype (Rigger) has to rely on Deckers or TMs for defense of his kit?

Wireless - wireless bonuses are still a thing and will probably be just as impactful if you are paranoid about being hacked ... most of the bonuses feed into the action economy (effectively making certain minor actions a "free" action by giving you a bonus minor action ... ie changing a clip with a smartgun"

Wireless bonuses were a mixed bag of good and garbage* in 5e and I am disappointed to see that they  are maintained. Wired and wireless should be primarily be a flavor decision.

*Examples of garbage:

• Smartguns connect to the internet to improve real time ballistics? Nope. Weather.com isn't going to help your math.
• Stun batons charging makes them hackable? Nope. They are charging from the presence of wireless, not the exchange of data. Their wireless bonuses do not make them hackable.
• The internal router and anything. My cyberware already has a DNI per the rules and anything that a DNI shouldn't be covering, this shouldn't cover either. This is a missed opportunity to macro multiple cyberware actions.

The survival knife is a good example of wireless bonuses that make sense.

Usage - this is more of a misconception I think... you can (and could in 5E) still access a device in your possession without connecting to the matrix just like in today's world your typical smartphone has a limited amount of functionality even with no signal but connecting to the matrix increases that functionality exponentially. There are no specific rules that state how useful something is without a matrix connection one way or another and should be handled with common sense.

A better example is a smartphone and a laptop. I can share my internet connection with my laptop via USB or WiFi hotspot.
In SR, if I connect via USB, it's not wireless so I don't get bonuses for being online. I can't get my Windows Updates. I can't stream my movies from Netflix or Prime.
If I connect via Mobile Hotspot. Suddenly, I am "SR" online and can be hacked from a block away.
If I'm connected via a LAN to a T1 line, it's the same "not wireless" nonsense.

It's dumb. Anything that requires a connection to a remote server should work whether there are a wires involved or not.

How MAD are deckers - well that will ultimately come down to play style but for 95% of what a decker is intended to do you only need 2 attributes and 2 skills

How about a tangent from a point above?
How MAD are riggers - Is it an equivalent investment to decker(s)?
How easy is it to fill multiple roles? - In general, but also specifically, how easily is it for a character to be a decker and rigger out of the gate versus how easy is it for a character to be a Technomancer and a rigger out of the gate?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Wireless bonuses were a mixed bag of good and garbage* in 5e and I am disappointed to see that they  are maintained. Wired and wireless should be primarily be a flavor decision.

I disagree with the bolded portion.

So long as the game wants deckers to join the team and not just hang back in the van, there must be things to hack.  If people can just render themselves hack-proof by going wireless-off, one thing you can do to prevent that is give them meaningful incentives to remain wireless-on.  (I would have preferred to see wireless-off simply not being a rules-mechanic option, since you can't go "astral-off" and render yourself immune to magic, so why can you render yourself immune to matrix attack?  but I digress...)

Whether the wireless bonuses are sufficiently compelling to not make yourself hacker-proof is a worthy discussion... but it's certainly not merely a flavor decision to make yourself hack-proof or to choose to use the potential wireless bonus.

*Examples of garbage:

• Smartguns connect to the internet to improve real time ballistics? Nope. Weather.com isn't going to help your math.
• Stun batons charging makes them hackable? Nope. They are charging from the presence of wireless, not the exchange of data. Their wireless bonuses do not make them hackable.
• The internal router and anything. My cyberware already has a DNI per the rules and anything that a DNI shouldn't be covering, this shouldn't cover either. This is a missed opportunity to macro multiple cyberware actions.

The survival knife is a good example of wireless bonuses that make sense.

I think that 6e has done a better job making the wireless bonuses more compelling.  Some instances are comparable to 5e, but IMO by and large there are many bonuses that are too good to give up as a matter of routine protocol just to be hacker-proof.

[Michael Chandra]

And before anyone asks what exactly those options are, please remember NDAs still apply and people are very limited in what they can clarify right now.

Me, I just take Simsense Vertigo if it still exists. =)

[Ghost Rigger]

So long as the game wants deckers to join the team and not just hang back in the van, there must be things to hack.  If people can just render themselves hack-proof by going wireless-off, one thing you can do to prevent that is give them meaningful incentives to remain wireless-on.

That doesn't mean everyone needs incentive to go wireless. In fact, it would make a great deal more sense if it were the wageslaves and other normies who benefited most from running wireless (being able to tell their fridge to start making dinner while they're driving home from work, for instance) while shadowrunners and anyone they would consider serious opposition would be able to use their gear to the fullest capacity without having wireless enabled.

(I would have preferred to see wireless-off simply not being a rules-mechanic option, since you can't go "astral-off" and render yourself immune to magic, so why can you render yourself immune to matrix attack?  but I digress...)

Magic/matrix symmetry is neither necessary nor beneficial for the system; in fact I would even go as far to say it's detrimental.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So long as the game wants deckers to join the team and not just hang back in the van, there must be things to hack.  If people can just render themselves hack-proof by going wireless-off, one thing you can do to prevent that is give them meaningful incentives to remain wireless-on.

That doesn't mean everyone needs incentive to go wireless. In fact, it would make a great deal more sense if it were the wageslaves and other normies who benefited most from running wireless (being able to tell their fridge to start making dinner while they're driving home from work, for instance) while shadowrunners and anyone they would consider serious opposition would be able to use their gear to the fullest capacity without having wireless enabled.

But that harks back to the reason stuff is wireless in the first place: so that they can be hacked.  Take away the decker's job, and you don't have anything for the decker to do.  Except go back to 1-3e norms and the decker hacks the host while everyone else does nothing, then while everyone else plays the decker does nothing.

(I would have preferred to see wireless-off simply not being a rules-mechanic option, since you can't go "astral-off" and render yourself immune to magic, so why can you render yourself immune to matrix attack?  but I digress...)

Magic/matrix symmetry is neither necessary nor beneficial for the system; in fact I would even go as far to say it's detrimental.

Let's agree to disagree. On all three things you just said.

[Ghost Rigger]

But that harks back to the reason stuff is wireless in the first place: so that they can be hacked.

Wrong way of thinking. Nobody puts wireless functionality on a device so that it can be hacked. The world is not built for you to exploit. You are able to exploit the world because it is complicated and flawed. Inability to understand that distinction is what makes for garbage wireless bonuses.

Except go back to 1-3e norms and the decker hacks the host while everyone else does nothing

In my experience, that happens anyways.

[Shinobi Killfist]

And before anyone asks what exactly those options are, please remember NDAs still apply and people are very limited in what they can clarify right now.

Me, I just take Simsense Vertigo if it still exists. =)

I think it should be a required flaw worth 0 points for mages.

[kyoto kid]

So long as the game wants deckers to join the team and not just hang back in the van, there must be things to hack.  If people can just render themselves hack-proof by going wireless-off, one thing you can do to prevent that is give them meaningful incentives to remain wireless-on.

That doesn't mean everyone needs incentive to go wireless. In fact, it would make a great deal more sense if it were the wageslaves and other normies who benefited most from running wireless (being able to tell their fridge to start making dinner while they're driving home from work, for instance) while shadowrunners and anyone they would consider serious opposition would be able to use their gear to the fullest capacity without having wireless enabled.

But that harks back to the reason stuff is wireless in the first place: so that they can be hacked.  Take away the decker's job, and you don't have anything for the decker to do.  Except go back to 1-3e norms and the decker hacks the host while everyone else does nothing, then while everyone else plays the decker does nothing.

Let's agree to disagree. On all three things you just said.

...In earlier editions, Deckers used to hack hosts so they could spoof cameras, spoof door locks, spoof security systems, and perform matrix overwatch for the team while they were in an installation. That was a very important function in and of itself.

[Cabral]

Wireless bonuses were a mixed bag of good and garbage* in 5e and I am disappointed to see that they  are maintained. Wired and wireless should be primarily be a flavor decision.

I disagree with the bolded portion.

So long as the game wants deckers to join the team and not just hang back in the van, there must be things to hack.  If people can just render themselves hack-proof by going wireless-off, one thing you can do to prevent that is give them meaningful incentives to remain wireless-on.  (I would have preferred to see wireless-off simply not being a rules-mechanic option, since you can't go "astral-off" and render yourself immune to magic, so why can you render yourself immune to matrix attack?  but I digress...)

Whether the wireless bonuses are sufficiently compelling to not make yourself hacker-proof is a worthy discussion... but it's certainly not merely a flavor decision to make yourself hack-proof or to choose to use the potential wireless bonus.

That's a bit of an either-or fallacy. Everything should generally be hackable, though signal rating makes more sense as a barrier to hacking for many accessories than anything else. You're not going to hack my Bluetooth from down the block. However, you can hack into a lot of things through the commlink.

What does this look like? The security amateur probably has a lot of default settings turned on, including matrix connectivity, and may be delinquent with their updates. You may be able to exploit individual pieces of gear directly.

The Kusanagis have the important gear behind low signal strength wireless connections to their commlinks or cyberdecks. You can still get through, but you'll have to get through the commlink. Instead, you can choose to jam the gear connection, but you will probably be facing some solid ECCM.

The Togusas will insist on wired connections to their critical pieces and a foe's options will be similar to facing Kusanagi, but with fewer targets to shut down via ECM jamming.

There may be some SR vulnerabilities that don't exist yet, such as the potential to set up digital camouflage via AR tags, that don't depend on your connections (In this case, only whether you have an AR capable camera/cybereye).

I think that 6e has done a better job making the wireless bonuses more compelling.  Some instances are comparable to 5e, but IMO by and large there are many bonuses that are too good to give up as a matter of routine protocol just to be hacker-proof.

It's not about compelling, it's about sensical and about not being a stick like it was in 5e, which I am worried about from your statement.

[Cabral]

But that harks back to the reason stuff is wireless in the first place: so that they can be hacked.  Take away the decker's job, and you don't have anything for the decker to do.  Except go back to 1-3e norms and the decker hacks the host while everyone else does nothing, then while everyone else plays the decker does nothing.

Curiously, you omitted 4e which did not have wireless bonuses. Can I then infer that 4e solved the problem of the decker in the van without resorting wireless bonuses that either never get used or get houseruled into not needing wireless functionality?