[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.

Tanks have never been statted for 5e. The worst that you can say is that you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal APC.

For colloquial purposes, an APC is still a tank.

Shadowrun isn't a military simulation game. The BattleTech forum is over here

[mbisber]

To take damage one still needs to be hit. My Chicago Missions Magician was not hit often because she was rarely perceived.

If the new Edge process negates or reduces Sneaking, Concealment, Masking, et.al., the game won't be worth playing IMO, and I'll find another game.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

From Jason Hardy, Shadowrun Line Developer:
...
Whether you’re fighting, spellcasting, hacking, or negotiating, you’ll have a chance to earn and spend bonus Edge.
...

You'll still get the opportunity to gain edge even outside of combat. 

If you've seen the SCN live play demo: they haven't done an amazing job of illustrating how one can gain edge outside of combat, but even that being the case last night they made excellent use of sneaky magic to churn up a bounty of Edge.

[Finstersang]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.


As far as 6th world goes, do remember to view "armor not helping on a soak roll" in context.  Some other 6e changes that tie directly into this change:

1) weapons have a lower DV, so there's less TO soak.
2) healing is more readily available than in 5e, so any damage you do take isn't as impactful as it is in 5e.
3) armor contributing to DR isn't the same thing as doing nothing. Edge is now an all-important meta-currency.  Armor giving you Edge (or denying it to your attacker) IS a big deal.

Plus, it was already mentioned that Augmentations (and other Perks) that actually add to the Soak test or even flat out reduce the damage will still be a thing. That also means that these Perks will have a much bigger value now, unlike 5E. I also wonder if Armor will still be able to turn lethal Damage into stun Damage. If so, it will still play an important role besides Edge gain. Same for the additional properties of Drone/Vehicle Armor.

I do have to admit, I´m still a bit on the fence about the Armor/Edge-thing. It´s a bold move, and I fear that it will be to much of an overcorrection. But maybe it actually works out in the end. If not, here´s to hope that there will be some additional/optional rules in the Combat Sourcebook once the TPK reports start to pile up. R&G offered some alternative combat rules as well (pretty half-assed, though).

[Shinobi Killfist]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.


As far as 6th world goes, do remember to view "armor not helping on a soak roll" in context.  Some other 6e changes that tie directly into this change:

1) weapons have a lower DV, so there's less TO soak.
2) healing is more readily available than in 5e, so any damage you do take isn't as impactful as it is in 5e.
3) armor contributing to DR isn't the same thing as doing nothing. Edge is now an all-important meta-currency.  Armor giving you Edge (or denying it to your attacker) IS a big deal.

Yes 5e armor was wack. Making 6e just as wack but in the other direction isn’t a fix. It’s just exchanging different broken items. Hell 5e was less broken as you had to actively build to break it. You have to actively build out of broken here.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yes 5e armor was wack. Making 6e just as wack but in the other direction isn’t a fix. It’s just exchanging different broken items. Hell 5e was less broken as you had to actively build to break it. You have to actively build out of broken here.

Yes, obviously, an overcorrection is bad.

However I don't know that declaring 6e is overcorrecting is actually a fair assessment, though.

In 5e, you usually just take a little stun or no damage at all, until there's a hit so insanely severe you can't possibly soak it and you die.  Not a lot of middle ground.

In 6e, since you're soaking with a smaller pool, you'll get less hits sure.  But you're soaking less damage.  Will you probably soak it all? Usually, no.  So.. you end up with some minor wounding.  Already, that's a difference from 5e and in my own completely personal opinion, that's a change for the better.  But whether one agrees with me or not, again remember healing is more readily accessible in 6e (never mind the SCN actual play...  They COULD have healed, they just didn't bother having all the tools necessary to do so!)  So in 5e, you go through a fight and either end up not wounded at all (imo, boring), slightly stunned (yay, slap patches, and back to not being wounded at all!), or dead (no fun for anyone).  In 6e, so long as you didn't TPK you patch up, only MAYBE still suffer any wound penalties, and you press on.   More soaking just makes it more like 5e.

Again, all imo.

[Marcus]

Yes 5e armor was wack. Making 6e just as wack but in the other direction isn’t a fix. It’s just exchanging different broken items. Hell 5e was less broken as you had to actively build to break it. You have to actively build out of broken here.

Yes, obviously, an overcorrection is bad.

However I don't know that declaring 6e is overcorrecting is actually a fair assessment, though.

In 5e, you usually just take a little stun or no damage at all, until there's a hit so insanely severe you can't possibly soak it and you die.  Not a lot of middle ground.

In 6e, since you're soaking with a smaller pool, you'll get less hits sure.  But you're soaking less damage.  Will you probably soak it all? Usually, no.  So.. you end up with some minor wounding.  Already, that's a difference from 5e and in my own completely personal opinion, that's a change for the better.  But whether one agrees with me or not, again remember healing is more readily accessible in 6e (never mind the SCN actual play...  They COULD have healed, they just didn't bother having all the tools necessary to do so!)  So in 5e, you go through a fight and either end up not wounded at all (imo, boring), slightly stunned (yay, slap patches, and back to not being wounded at all!), or dead (no fun for anyone).  In 6e, so long as you didn't TPK you patch up, only MAYBE still suffer any wound penalties, and you press on.   More soaking just makes it more like 5e.

Again, all imo.

There is no way to know yet. The action economy suggests players will get attacked more. But until we see the first couple books it’s impossible make a convincing argument. Does it look like over reaction? Sure. Any time you see things go from 20 dice to probably 5 or less asking question is 100% valid. But we are stuck until the CRB drops.

[Lormyr]

I pretty much concur with Marcus. Until we get to see what's what, it's a lot of speculation.

I can say that I don't really care for the more healing thing. Not that it is a good or bad choice, it's just a personal flavor issue for me. Barring the heal speal (which I was never a big fan of), I liked Shadowrun's more realistic "I need to sleep this off for a few days." or "I think I need a doctor. . ." gritty vibe. I just hope it doesn't end up being a high fantasy, dnd sort of situation.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I pretty much concur with Marcus. Until we get to see what's what, it's a lot of speculation.

I can say that I don't really care for the more healing thing. Not that it is a good or bad choice, it's just a personal flavor issue for me. Barring the heal speal (which I was never a big fan of), I liked Shadowrun's more realistic "I need to sleep this off for a few days." or "I think I need a doctor. . ." gritty vibe. I just hope it doesn't end up being a high fantasy, dnd sort of situation.

It already felt like that in many games I ran. A first aid character and a heal spell frequently brought characters from like 9 boxes of damage to fully healed. If 6e goes further, damn healing is powerful.

[kyoto kid]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.


As far as 6th world goes, do remember to view "armor not helping on a soak roll" in context.  Some other 6e changes that tie directly into this change:

1) weapons have a lower DV, so there's less TO soak.
2) healing is more readily available than in 5e, so any damage you do take isn't as impactful as it is in 5e.
3) armor contributing to DR isn't the same thing as doing nothing. Edge is now an all-important meta-currency.  Armor giving you Edge (or denying it to your attacker) IS a big deal.

Plus, it was already mentioned that Augmentations (and other Perks) that actually add to the Soak test or even flat out reduce the damage will still be a thing. That also means that these Perks will have a much bigger value now, unlike 5E.

..but woe to the mage, adept or techromancer who cannot get such mods without sacrificing their primary abilities.

[kyoto kid]

To take damage one still needs to be hit. My Chicago Missions Magician was not hit often because she was rarely perceived.

If the new Edge process negates or reduces Sneaking, Concealment, Masking, et.al., the game won't be worth playing IMO, and I'll find another game.

...+1

[kyoto kid]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.

Tanks have never been statted for 5e. The worst that you can say is that you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal APC.

For colloquial purposes, an APC is still a tank.

Shadowrun isn't a military simulation game. The BattleTech forum is over here

...however. in 3E they statted out APCs Tanks, Naval Weapons, and such.

[kyoto kid]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.


As far as 6th world goes, do remember to view "armor not helping on a soak roll" in context.  Some other 6e changes that tie directly into this change:

1) weapons have a lower DV, so there's less TO soak.
2) healing is more readily available than in 5e, so any damage you do take isn't as impactful as it is in 5e.
3) armor contributing to DR isn't the same thing as doing nothing. Edge is now an all-important meta-currency.  Armor giving you Edge (or denying it to your attacker) IS a big deal.

...from what I have seen in the live play sessions, the lack of armour adding into soak does make a big difference.  In session #2 the entire team was almost taken out by devil rats.  I have never seen a team of runners decimated by devil rats in any edition.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

When you can build a figurative tank with a better soak pool than a literal tank, you know 5e was wack.


As far as 6th world goes, do remember to view "armor not helping on a soak roll" in context.  Some other 6e changes that tie directly into this change:

1) weapons have a lower DV, so there's less TO soak.
2) healing is more readily available than in 5e, so any damage you do take isn't as impactful as it is in 5e.
3) armor contributing to DR isn't the same thing as doing nothing. Edge is now an all-important meta-currency.  Armor giving you Edge (or denying it to your attacker) IS a big deal.

...from what I have seen in the live play sessions, the lack of armour adding into soak does make a big difference.  In session #2 the entire team was almost taken out by devil rats.  I have never seen a team of runners decimated by devil rats in any edition.

And you still haven't in 6th, either.

It wasn't Devil Rats that messed them up, but Demon Rats who were leading the Devil Rats. More specifically: Poison from the Demon Rats.  Armor doesn't help vs poison in 5e, either.

[Ghost Rigger]

It wasn't Devil Rats that messed them up, but Demon Rats who were leading the Devil Rats. More specifically: Poison from the Demon Rats. Armor doesn't help vs poison in 5e, either.

One, it does, actually. Regular armor can protect against injection vector toxins by preventing penetration, and various armor mods provide varying degrees of protection against contact and inhalation vector toxins.

Two, there's plenty of gear and augmentations that provide soak dice against toxins, so I could very easily move the goalposts from "armor is meaningless because it doesn't provide soak dice" to "protective gear and augments are meaningless because they don't provide soak dice".

Three, I'm looking at the statblock for Demon Rats right now and I see nothing about a toxin attack. Where did the toxins come from in this scenario?