[Ixal]

That doesn't sound so bad.
Hopefully this trend continues and 6E plays a lot better than it sounds now.

Has there been any word on the Matrix so far?

[Moonshine Fox]

That doesn't sound so bad.
Hopefully this trend continues and 6E plays a lot better than it sounds now.

Has there been any word on the Matrix so far?

Not really. The Quickstart rules have a very simplified thing for the matrix, apparently not even delving in the VR. One of the biggest things though is that marks are gone, vastly improving the action economy and in combat viability of Deckers.

[Moonshine Fox]

...Want to do some basic cinematic run to cover, while drawing a gun and firing off a shot. Nope can’t do it unless you are cybered or something...

I'm curious what makes you think this.

Major action to draw a weapon reduced to minor with the right gear. Move minor action. Take cover minor action. Shoot major action. That is 3 minors+1major. Normals get 2+1. Im sure if we go through the list of free actions and how they are now minors we can come up with more examples of this. Every previous edition free actions let you move and with a quick draw being out your pistol. 2 simples got you a shot and cover or if taking cover wasn’t an action 2 shots and you just moved into cover. If I wasn’t clear I’m not talking about your move taking you past a corner where you inherently have cover but moving into cover so you can see the enemies be in position to do things next round etc.

Will yelling things to teammates be a minor action now or is speaking some unknown non action thing.

Edit to add my somewhat tongue in cheek comment earlier was how many combat turns will it take to get out of a car. Minor action to unbuckle but if it’s wirelessly engaged you get a bonus moot action to unbuckle etc.

From what I´ve seen about the new Action Economy so far: Honestely, not too terrible. F.i., an unaugmented normie can do Move, Shoot, Cover OR Quickdraw, Shoot, Cover OR Move, Cover, Ready a big Gun OR ...

Yes, in all of these scenarios, you are one or two minors or even a major Action short for doing something really "cinematic". But guess what? Normal people don´t do cinematic stuff in firefight. But that´s something Streetsams and Adepts can still do.

And boi, they are not the big losers of the new action economy as many like to claim here. In 5E, un- (or lightly) augmented fighters often had a very good chance for a second IP: 5+ Reaction, 5+ Intuition, there you go: Unless your get injured, your second Pass is safe. The wired-up chars could get 3 or 4 IP for their Karma/Gear/Essence Investment, and if they flunked the Initiative roll, they even might have just 2 IP like most serious combatants. Yes, there´s much to do in one Initative Pass, but the most important thing is attacking, which you could do only once per IP. Spare simple/free Actions were usually used for stuff like aiming (which is basically just a part of the attack) or running.

So assuming a 5E wired Streetsam rolled a good Initiative Score and got himself 4 IP: That´s 4 Attacks for that combat round, provided that he doesn´t get tasered, injured etc. Meanwhile, an unaugmented ganger with a good base Initative could have an (almost) safe second IP, which equals 2 Attacks. That´s the same ratio as Streetsam with 2 additonal minors can get (as long as he has it´s weapons readied etc.). But wait, there´s more: In 5E, the streetsam couldn´t do 2 Attacks after another straight at the start of the Combat. After each of the first 2 Attacks, the ganger(s) have an oppoturnity to shoot back. The "rhythm" of the combat would be: Sam, Ganger, Sam, Ganger, Sam, Sam (end of Turn), while In 6E, it would be: Sam, Sam, Ganger (end of Turn), Sam, Sam, Ganger (end of Turn).

If the Sam already has his Assault rifle out and ready, he has two Attacks to do some serious damage right at the start of Combat. That´s a bigger difference than many of you might think.

And if you still think that wired characters get the short end of the stick in 6E, just one word: Blitz . With one point of Edge, every little goon could roll 5 ID and go all cinematic on your ass. That´s gone as well, an rightfully so. (Though I do think that another Edge option to buy 1 or max. 2 additional Minor Actions would be a good idea to give both wired and unwired chars more flexibility for one combat turn. Maybe that´s something for the Combat supplement?)

 Thanks for this! I haven’t had time to crunch those numbers myself, and it was something I was a little worried about. But it looks like things stay roughly the same as now, or actually get a little better for the combat monsters. Plus now you’re unaugmented mage doesn’t have to go and make a sandwich while the sam takes his 17 init passes (in 3 seconds time).

[Shinobi Killfist]

That doesn't sound so bad.
Hopefully this trend continues and 6E plays a lot better than it sounds now.

Has there been any word on the Matrix so far?

Not really. The Quickstart rules have a very simplified thing for the matrix, apparently not even delving in the VR. One of the biggest things though is that marks are gone, vastly improving the action economy and in combat viability of Deckers.

Thank good for that. Marks or in 4e basic, security, admin. Just slowed everything down. And frequently by the time the decker could do something it was already over.

[Moonshine Fox]

That doesn't sound so bad.
Hopefully this trend continues and 6E plays a lot better than it sounds now.

Has there been any word on the Matrix so far?

Not really. The Quickstart rules have a very simplified thing for the matrix, apparently not even delving in the VR. One of the biggest things though is that marks are gone, vastly improving the action economy and in combat viability of Deckers.

Thank good for that. Marks or in 4e basic, security, admin. Just slowed everything down. And frequently by the time the decker could do something it was already over.

Deckers have always been my first love of Shadowrun and I’m really hoping they dial it in good this time. They seem to almost have it in fifth but the marks just didn’t work mechanically.   Thematically though they are still pretty awesome and I’ll probably leave them in for descriptive purposes.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

but house rules are the ultimate best answer because it should be about tailoring the experience to your group so everyone has fun not a debate session with a bunch of rules lawyers

This is an opinion I'll never truly understand.

Why is it that ttrpg is one of the only industries (along with software development) we, as paying customers are encouraged to enable developers to be lazy and incomplete?

This is not applied anywhere else.

"You bought a house and it was missing windows?  No problem!  Just put them in yourself.  It isn't so hard!"  (It really isn't.)

"You bought a car and it is missing a steering wheel?  Just make your own!"  (This one runs into safety laws, I admit.)

And just in case those two are too high priced to be apples to apples:

"You ordered a chicken sandwich at your favorite fast food joint and got a burger instead?  Just make your own chicken to eat instead!"

[Shinobi Killfist]

That doesn't sound so bad.
Hopefully this trend continues and 6E plays a lot better than it sounds now.

Has there been any word on the Matrix so far?

Not really. The Quickstart rules have a very simplified thing for the matrix, apparently not even delving in the VR. One of the biggest things though is that marks are gone, vastly improving the action economy and in combat viability of Deckers.

Thank good for that. Marks or in 4e basic, security, admin. Just slowed everything down. And frequently by the time the decker could do something it was already over.

Deckers have always been my first love of Shadowrun and I’m really hoping they dial it in good this time. They seem to almost have it in fifth but the marks just didn’t work mechanically.   Thematically though they are still pretty awesome and I’ll probably leave them in for descriptive purposes.

I wish they’d get rid of wireless on/off. Either it’s always on or that is what makes a deck a deck in that they can hack non wireless items in range.

As a GM I default to all the enemies having it on initially until the hacker does too much damage.

At least with no free actions turning it off takes a action. While I want free actions. That shouldn’t have been one of them. 

[Shinobi Killfist]

but house rules are the ultimate best answer because it should be about tailoring the experience to your group so everyone has fun not a debate session with a bunch of rules lawyers

This is an opinion I'll never truly understand.

Why is it that ttrpg is one of the only industries (along with software development) we, as paying customers are encouraged to enable developers to be lazy and incomplete?

This is not applied anywhere else.

"You bought a house and it was missing windows?  No problem!  Just put them in yourself.  It isn't so hard!"  (It really isn't.)

"You bought a car and it is missing a steering wheel?  Just make your own!"  (This one runs into safety laws, I admit.)

And just in case those two are too high priced to be apples to apples:

"You ordered a chicken sandwich at your favorite fast food joint and got a burger instead?  Just make your own chicken to eat instead!"

While I generally am opposed to the good GM will fix it idea. House rules are assumed because every table is different in what they want from a game.  I one game can hit all those points.

Ideally if a game has a coherent enough system you can plug house rules in easily to tailor it to your table. Which is where I guess I draw the line. House rules are great for tailoring it to your table. Not a fan of using them to fix broken mechanics.

[Moonshine Fox]

That doesn't sound so bad.
Hopefully this trend continues and 6E plays a lot better than it sounds now.

Has there been any word on the Matrix so far?

Not really. The Quickstart rules have a very simplified thing for the matrix, apparently not even delving in the VR. One of the biggest things though is that marks are gone, vastly improving the action economy and in combat viability of Deckers.

Thank good for that. Marks or in 4e basic, security, admin. Just slowed everything down. And frequently by the time the decker could do something it was already over.

Deckers have always been my first love of Shadowrun and I’m really hoping they dial it in good this time. They seem to almost have it in fifth but the marks just didn’t work mechanically.   Thematically though they are still pretty awesome and I’ll probably leave them in for descriptive purposes.

I wish they’d get rid of wireless on/off. Either it’s always on or that is what makes a deck a deck in that they can hack non wireless items in range.

As a GM I default to all the enemies having it on initially until the hacker does too much damage.

At least with no free actions turning it off takes a action. While I want free actions. That shouldn’t have been one of them.

Hell, people nowadays don’t ever turn their wireless devices off. By 2070 I’d be willing to bet most people don’t even know how to outside of the ultra paranoid,  ne’er-do-wells, and the occasional Luddite.

Flavor texting fifth implied that people walking around with wireless turned off could draw scrutiny from various security forces assuming they were up to no good.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yeah, I don't buy critiques about wireless bonuses and wireless functionality in general... Why don't people in the 6th World "sensibly" turn all their drek to wireless off? Because they already don't do it in the real world.  Just ask Alexa. Or Siri. Or Google.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, I don't buy critiques about wireless bonuses and wireless functionality in general... Why don't people in the 6th World "sensibly" turn all their drek to wireless off? Because they already don't do it in the real world.  Just ask Alexa. Or Siri. Or Google.

Too be fair the discussion is usually centered around things like security teams who likely would have a higher degree of paranoia.

[Moonshine Fox]

Yeah, I don't buy critiques about wireless bonuses and wireless functionality in general... Why don't people in the 6th World "sensibly" turn all their drek to wireless off? Because they already don't do it in the real world.  Just ask Alexa. Or Siri. Or Google.

I asked Siri this. She said she didn't understand.

Yeah, I don't buy critiques about wireless bonuses and wireless functionality in general... Why don't people in the 6th World "sensibly" turn all their drek to wireless off? Because they already don't do it in the real world.  Just ask Alexa. Or Siri. Or Google.

I'd imagine it'd vary depending on the parent corp and profesional rating. I'd figure your average Knight Errant patrol unit or Renraku security team wouldn't be allowed to even under threat of hack, but a Firewatch team or unit of Red Samurai...  You bet they'd turn that off if needed.

[Banshee]

but house rules are the ultimate best answer because it should be about tailoring the experience to your group so everyone has fun not a debate session with a bunch of rules lawyers

This is an opinion I'll never truly understand.

Why is it that ttrpg is one of the only industries (along with software development) we, as paying customers are encouraged to enable developers to be lazy and incomplete?

This is not applied anywhere else.

"You bought a house and it was missing windows?  No problem!  Just put them in yourself.  It isn't so hard!"  (It really isn't.)

"You bought a car and it is missing a steering wheel?  Just make your own!"  (This one runs into safety laws, I admit.)

And just in case those two are too high priced to be apples to apples:

"You ordered a chicken sandwich at your favorite fast food joint and got a burger instead?  Just make your own chicken to eat instead!"

Just curious then, have you never played a card game, board game, heck how about any type of game where you didn't have a house rule of some kind? even back yard tag is different  depending on who is playing.

Now I will agree with you it is not our place as gm's or players to fix big blatant holes in a game by using house rules ... but that is not what we are talking about here. EVERYTHING being discussed here so far is a matter off opinion when you boil it down to the root cause. The question is does it give each of you the exact experience you want/need from Shadowrun ... obviously not (or at least on the surface not for those that still need to see behind the curtain) ... and that is where houserules come in. Change it to match your style of play, or need to to come to some kind of compromise for your group so things stay consistent because something was left vague ... go for it. Do whatever it takes to have FUN ... it is a cooperative social game after all, not a competition.

[Marcus]

Skills in 6E are more broader and thus more valuable than the more specialized skills in previous Editions. The increased price tag is justified with or without an increase in Karma awards.

You clearly feel that way, I suspect many in the player base will feel very differently. I certainly think otherwise.

That being said, the suggested Karma (and Nuyen!) awards in previous Editions have always been to low. You often started with a pretty optimized and powerfull character right from the get go, but it takes a lot of gaming sessions to noticable advance your char. And a rating*months training time surely isn´t very helpfull regarding this problem. However, we don´t know yet if these training intervalls have to untinterrupted downtime sessions (that would be terrible!) and how they intervalls can be modified by stuff like lifestyle choices, professional trainers etc. Maybe in 6E, contacts that can teach you new stuff or paid courses will finally be worthwhile?

But I agree, that long training intervall is a kind of sour first impression for the direction of character advancements in 6E. And there would actually be a lot to improve, because character advancements (in contrast to character building) wasn´t a strong suit of the last 2 Editions of Shadowrun either. Progressive pricing for Attribute and Skill enhancements, in combination with a character creations system with liniar advancement cost, is a big incentive for players to min-max at character creation and buy mostly cheap side skills and perks later in the game. Monetary Advancements (Gear, Augmentations...) were even more problematic than Karma Advancement. Stuff like Augmentations and Decking equipment was raised in cost in 5E, so if you played one of these Archetypes, you usually took the best you could afford at chargen and never upgraded it. And if you actually did save up your Money to buy a Rating 3 Synaptic Booster or a High-Level Deck, it really stretched the plausibility of the character´s motiviation: "Wow, I´ve saved up more money than a wageslave will earn in their entire live. I could buy a house. I could get out of this dangerous life in the shadows. But I´d rather spend that small fortune to put more chrome inside me so I´m a little bit better suited when I continue my dangerous life in the shadows" Hard to justify without qualities like Augmentation Addiction, Thrillseeker etc. Meanwhile, "Paranormals" like Mages, Adepts and, to a degree, Technomancers, often had troubles to find meaningfull ways to spend their money. The price for most other types of equipment, and especially magical equipment, was way too low and there was rarely a (financial) reason to not take the best you can get.

Because of this, I also really hope that top-tier weapons of a certain category will have a more punishing price tag than in the previous Editions. Taking the Ares Alpha was a no-brainer in 5E: Yes , it´s sooooo more expensive than a low-tier Assualt rifle - but compared to a new Augmentation, it´s still dirt cheap and gives you a lot more noticable advantages.

I was in a thread not long ago where peeps made good arguments that skill raising was largely just not happening in 5e, and this is going to make it several times worse as you have said. If 6e goes anywhere; a cause which this certainly isn't helping in anyway, the training rules are probably just going to be completely ignore or just house ruled, I expect missions play will issue some level of compromise, hopefully that will be useful. Can anyone explain how this made it through play testing? It leaves me frankly stunned. Did the play tests not run a campaign? No player went from 6 to a 7 and said some like this taking longer then half a year could be an issue? Given the time scale of SR this just means no one would ever really raise skills. maybe one is possible? Is that what is intended? Systematic Character growth is only intended to be gear and spec equivalents?

Even cops and soldiers have to spend X hours a month at the firing range, even if they pull their gun everyday. If you want to go realistic, every month you don't use a skill should decrease it's rank by 1.

 
Now there is some good old fashion simulationist game rules. Perhaps hold on to that logic for an armor and melee weapon fix?

[Marcus]

notes on advancement (specifically skills)

Yes karma cost are higher, basically on par with skills groups ... because well they are basically skill groups now .. also the same cost as attributes
Specializations and expertise cost are pretty cheap ... same cost as a spell

as for training times ... they are purely a suggestion and explicitly states that, so if you think they are too much cut them back

Wait what? The rules for training time aren't actually rules? Then why are they in the book at all?

Are there are other rules that are purely suggestions we should be aware of?