[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Training times in effect add a monetary cost to character advancement by way  of lifestyle payments.

I consider that a negative as it punishes gear/ware focussed characters disproportionately.

I do as well.  Particularly for SRM.  There's already too-little incentive to pay more than the absolute minimum Lifestyle required (Squatter). Want to enjoy your hard won spoils and live it up at High lifestyle? Better save up 10K per month you need to spend in training...

[tenchi2a]

Since I don't like what I see in the game and from the last red post I see CGL position on that.
I will be take my leave from this discussion.

 

[kyoto kid]

...even should a change me made to address training time/cost for Missions, the higher Karma cost for skill advancement still means slower character progression as the average Karma award is generally 5 - 6 per session (provided he team doesn't hose the job which I have seen occur).  That would mean if you are looking to improve a skill from say 4 - 5, it would take 4 - 5 sessions to bank up enough Karma to do so. that's basically a month or more of "real time" (if sessions are held on a weekly basis) to see any character improvement.

[Redwulfe]

Personally, I don't mind a slower progression on non-Level based systems. Now that being said, if Missions escalate the threat at the same rate it should be fine but if threat escalation is too quick it would be a problem. Personally, I would like to see a Threat level gauge for missions. Not one that tells you what you can and can not play like the old tier system but just a label telling the GM and players what threat level they are getting into and let them then decide how cautious they wish to be. Basically more like a module rating like movies have. This module is ultra-Violet be warned.

[Moonshine Fox]

The skill advancement isn't that far off from what it is now, it's just that with the skill squish each skill is around 3 or so from before. Raising three separate skills in 5th was equivalent to skill rank x 6 (SR x 2 for each). Keeping it at x2 would have been too quick on advancement with the broader scope of skills. Personally I'd have probably gone with x4. Still, you may not be buying a new rank as often, but you get more bang for your buck when you do.

Wonder if there will be a sidebar for "So you want more skills in your game"

[Shinobi Killfist]

The skill advancement isn't that far off from what it is now, it's just that with the skill squish each skill is around 3 or so from before. Raising three separate skills in 5th was equivalent to skill rank x 6 (SR x 2 for each). Keeping it at x2 would have been too quick on advancement with the broader scope of skills. Personally I'd have probably gone with x4. Still, you may not be buying a new rank as often, but you get more bang for your buck when you do.

Wonder if there will be a sidebar for "So you want more skills in your game"

It’s hard to guess without seeing karma advancement and what else is there. Apparently attributes are the same x5 which means compared to them they are too expensive. But how much compared to other items is hard to see. Is raising firearms from 5 to 6 really the same as 6 spells for example.

[Redwulfe]

Wonder if there will be a sidebar for "So you want more skills in your game"

I think with the streamlining that they wanted to do with the core book to get the page count down, it would be advisable to not get your hopes on that being in the core book. Though I would think that optional systems and rules to expand the game will make a Runners guide or ST book.

[kyoto kid]

...and therein is the bottom line.

[Moonshine Fox]

Wonder if there will be a sidebar for "So you want more skills in your game"

I think with the streamlining that they wanted to do with the core book to get the page count down, it would be advisable to not get your hopes on that being in the core book. Though I would think that optional systems and rules to expand the game will make a Runners guide or ST book.

Oh I’m good. 5th got way to heavy on active skill bloat, and not enough points for knowledge skills. Runners companion I could see such coming up though.

[Marcus]

Oh I’m good. 5th got way to heavy on active skill bloat, and not enough points for knowledge skills. Runners companion I could see such coming up though.

And packing everything back into skill groups and making knowledges/languages into binary options is gonna solve the problem?

More active skills promoted role protection and differentiated specialties within Archetypes.  Further this will doubtlessly result in lower skill budget in Priority Creation. Which given SR predisposition towards Jack of all trade characters means odds are we going to see lower pools across the board. Where Edge in previous editions allowed those characters to be effective, we will be in the new edge system do you think it will be as successful as the old one in those regards?  I pray some of the edge uses we haven't seen effect initiative.  If not I'm fearful for the Jack builds.

[kyoto kid]

Oh I’m good. 5th got way to heavy on active skill bloat, and not enough points for knowledge skills. Runners companion I could see such coming up though.

And packing everything back into skill groups and making knowledges/languages into binary options is gonna solve the problem?

More active skills promoted role protection and differentiated specialties within Archetypes.  Further this will doubtlessly result in lower skill budget in Priority Creation. Which given SR predisposition towards Jack of all trade characters means odds are we going to see lower pools across the board. Where Edge in previous editions allowed those characters to be effective, we will be in the new edge system do you think it will be as successful as the old one in those regards?  I pray some of the edge uses we haven't seen effect initiative.  If not I'm fearful for the Jack builds.

..I agree.

In my missions group a Jack of all Trades character often comes in very handy. Yeah OK, he/she may not be able to cast spells or deck, but can still fill in skill voids as well as assist other characters in teamwork tests.  After all, isn't a team supposed to be a "team" that works together instead of a group of "me's"?

[dim]

Oh I’m good. 5th got way to heavy on active skill bloat, and not enough points for knowledge skills. Runners companion I could see such coming up though.

And packing everything back into skill groups and making knowledges/languages into binary options is gonna solve the problem?

That depends heavily on player preference. But it certainly is a way to approach that problem.
Language skills as a binary option is a good move imho. It's very difficult to represent a certain skill level of a language in RP, for the GM and the players. It's at least as difficult as it is in real life. People approach languages from a lot of different angles. But I think somebody else already made that argument in this thread.

I'm not as certain when it comes to knowledge skills. But in practice, we had similiar debates when we discussed how much a character knew about the yakuzas with a knowledge level of 2, as we had with language levels.
We are used to represent knowledge in levels irl, but I don't think it's the smartest move in play, when most players and GMs know very little about the languages/skills they play.

I think the specialization and expertise option counters the perceived lack of variety in active skills at least a little bit. Maybe it will make specializations more common then they used to be (at least in my games).

As for the usefulness of the Jack of All Trades players, I don't know whether that's really that big of a problem. Having real specialists on the team at least avoids stepping on other player's toes/areas of expertise. And I find it helpful for RP and fun, when players have to depend on each other for the task ahead. Teamwork means the combination of different skills for a common goal just as much as assisting each other on a specific task.
Also "real" Jack of All Trades are barely possible in SR5. Most Jacks I knew had 2 or 3 skills overlapping with other players and where helpful when the others were busy or down. They still had their thing that only they were experts in, even if it was something less exciting.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

As for the usefulness of the Jack of All Trades players, I don't know whether that's really that big of a problem. Having real specialists on the team at least avoids stepping on other player's toes/areas of expertise.

You are assuming some level of player-team based level of cooperation in character building.  That isn't always the case.  For some tangible subset of the playerbase, Missions is their only real outlet for playing.  For them, not only is cooperative character building not always the case, it is almost non-existent.

Combine that with the likely reduction to the number of skill points at chargen*, and there is a real possibility of "cookie cutter" characters with the exact same skill builds.  Do note:  I am not suggesting said characters will play the same, just pointing out mechanically they would be nearly - if not exactly - the same.

*Purely speculation on my part.  Sixth World cuts the number of active skills down to roughly a quarter, so players should not be surprised to see the number of skill points at chargen cut as dramatically.  I'm not sure it will be by roughly a quarter, but here is what that would look like:
E => 5, D => 6, C => 7/1, B =9/2>. A => 11/3
(The number after the slash are "bonus points" from what used to be Skill Group points.  With all skill becoming Skill Groups, I have no idea how those might work.  Maybe Specialization only points?)

[Finstersang]

On a first glance, the edge effects don´t look really convincing, especially the 1 Edge - 1 Dice - reroll.

However, I wouldn´t underestimate the fact that you can choose when and for what particular effect you want to spend Edge. 1 Edge != 1 Dice.

Can anyone tell how this 2 Edge-Limit works? Is that really part of the rules? Is it just for one Action or one Pass? Or is it really for the whole combat turn? Because holy shit would that be stupid 

first there are no passes anymore, everyone just gets the one turn per round
as for the other .. wording is confusing and it is on our errata list to get clarification (they way it reads could be per action or per round) .. we are pushing for it to be per action since that is how we play tested it

Well, here´s to hope that they´ll keep it as you playtested it!

 2 Edge per turn of a given player (that´s what I meant with pass  ) would be almost understandable (it would mostly only affect the fast chars anyways), but if it´s really 2 for the whole round, it would be such a terrible choice: Once you get your 2 Edge  from whatever sources, your magical mojo point armor wouldn´t even generate more magical mojo points. Be quick, earn your 2 Edge and you really might have gone in naked. It´s also a bit harder to keep the limitation in mind when it´s for the whole round instead of the foreseeable increment of a single Action or a single pass turn.

(I mean, not that I couldn´t or wouldn´t houserule that shit right away if it´s really 2 per round. But it would leave a seriously sour taste for many players if the official rules for this fancy new core mechanic would have such an enormous flaw...)

[Marcus]

Oh I’m good. 5th got way to heavy on active skill bloat, and not enough points for knowledge skills. Runners companion I could see such coming up though.

And packing everything back into skill groups and making knowledges/languages into binary options is gonna solve the problem?

That depends heavily on player preference. But it certainly is a way to approach that problem.
Language skills as a binary option is a good move imho. It's very difficult to represent a certain skill level of a language in RP, for the GM and the players. It's at least as difficult as it is in real life. People approach languages from a lot of different angles. But I think somebody else already made that argument in this thread.

I'm not as certain when it comes to knowledge skills. But in practice, we had similiar debates when we discussed how much a character knew about the yakuzas with a knowledge level of 2, as we had with language levels.
We are used to represent knowledge in levels irl, but I don't think it's the smartest move in play, when most players and GMs know very little about the languages/skills they play.

I think the specialization and expertise option counters the perceived lack of variety in active skills at least a little bit. Maybe it will make specializations more common then they used to be (at least in my games).

As for the usefulness of the Jack of All Trades players, I don't know whether that's really that big of a problem. Having real specialists on the team at least avoids stepping on other player's toes/areas of expertise. And I find it helpful for RP and fun, when players have to depend on each other for the task ahead. Teamwork means the combination of different skills for a common goal just as much as assisting each other on a specific task.
Also "real" Jack of All Trades are barely possible in SR5. Most Jacks I knew had 2 or 3 skills overlapping with other players and where helpful when the others were busy or down. They still had their thing that only they were experts in, even if it was something less exciting.

Feel free to check out the character customization section. I spent a lot of time down that way, and we have many threads on jack of all trades. A lot of thought and work has gone into it. Jacks were both possible and done with several different methods in 5e.