[Moonshine Fox]

Only because I am limited in how much detail I can go into prior to the release of the CRB ...

3. Only jump into one vehicle - nothing new here either. but what they can do is be jumped into their primary vehicle doing all kinds of cool rigger stuff (or primary drone) then control several drones via their RCC

Oh good! The lack Of issuing captains chair orders while jumped in never sat well with me. It’s like a squad leader not being able to scream orders at everyone else because he’s shooting his gun.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Well you and I have vastly differing opinions and experiences then regarding Riggers. ... all good though

We cleaned up some sloppy mechanics but didn't change the overall functionality because we didn't see the need or demand. The only complaint that came from the vast majority of the SR community was the confusion about how to do rigger things and not what can a rigger do.

All fair.

I could probably write up a disertation on the subject...  For now I will try the condensed version.

What is, as far as you believe, the purpose of a Rigger in Shadowrun?

When your runner team is missing a Street Sam analog (Adept, Spirit Army, etc.), the first time you enter a combat you notice it.  It isn't that the team won't get through the encounter, it is that the encounter takes more in-game time, and likely your team suffers more damage, than if you have a combat monster available.

When your runner team is missing a Mojo-slinger, the first time you need a spellcaster, you notice it.  Again, the team can still get by, but the lack of Counterspelling or the missing Swiss Army Knife that magic brings to the table is obvious when you don't have a Mage analog in the team.

When you runner team is missing a Face, the first social encounter you have - likely a negotiation - will highlight it.  There is nothing stopping the team from getting through it, and with style, there is still a tangible effect that is clear it is missing.

When your runner team is missing a Matrix Jockey (particularly with a player who focuses on legwork), you notice it from the very first run.

When your team is missing a Rigger...  No one blinks an eye.  Maybe the players whine about not having a soccer mom ('cause we all know that players are clamoring to play a soccer mom), but having a bus driver doesn't really add anything to the game - and certainly not after the very first time the GM asks "how do you all get to the meet?"  After that it is easily assumed that the Soccer Mom does it.


Other than being a bankroll to buy team vehicles, what does a Rigger bring to the table?  Or, more to the point, what does a Rigger bring to the table that a Technomancer can't do, with a bag of chips (full on Decker capabilities, sprites, etc) to boot?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...
Other than being a bankroll to buy team vehicles, what does a Rigger bring to the table?  Or, more to the point, what does a Rigger bring to the table that a Technomancer can't do, with a bag of chips (full on Decker capabilities, sprites, etc) to boot?

I don't think you were asking me, but I'm going to provide my answer anyway:

I'm sympathetic with you. I'd pin the specifics about "rigger problems" a bit differently than you did, though. It's not just Technoriggers that poach on the Rigger's turf, it's the magicians with driving-related adept powers.  It's the magicians who can summon spirits that are both cheaper and outperform drones.  It's the 5e EdgeLords who could just pre-edge anything of consequence, to include vehicle tests during a chase. Even the teamwork rules can turn anyone into a viable soccer mom without having to build to be one.  And my personal bugaboo is Spirits using the Movement power: why are you even using vehicles anyway when you can move just as fast on foot?

A large commonality there is magic.  Using Background Counts to the full extent suggested in Street Grimoire is one way to give Riggers agency again.  But punishing players because magicians are (gasp) too powerful isn't a great solution to the game.  And it also remains to be seen how that dynamic will even work in 6e, so it may not continue to even be an option.

At least the Edgelords can't outdrive Riggers in 6e.  Not only are there no limits anymore (bypassing those is what made Edgelording a thing, really) the way edge works is different.  Costs a good bit more than 1 edge now to add your edge rating to a test, so you can't just do it willy nilly anymore, even with max edge!

One of the unrealized promises of 5e was that Riggers were "matrix specialists" just as much as Deckers and Technomancers. No, they were prey and 2nd fiddle respectively. At best.  In 6e (depending on how certain errata/clarifications go) they just might finally realize that status as being matrix powerhouses. No they're not going to outhack a Decker, but they potentially won't need a friendly hacker themselves to protect them from hostile hackers anymore.  And potentially even do some 2nd rate hacking, themselves.

Which segues into what I think riggers do: they're jacks of all trades.  Sure, maybe you don't need a spy drone because you have spirits, or a covert ops infiltrator to check things out. Maybe you don't need a juggernaut combat vehicle/drone because you have spirits, sammies, or adepts. Maybe you don't even need to drive anyone around because the team already has spirits.  Aside from spirit summoning magicians, noone does it all like Riggers do.  (and not being able to out-do spirits honestly isn't a problem with rigger rules, it's a problem with the magic rules...)

[Banshee]

Well you and I have vastly differing opinions and experiences then regarding Riggers. ... all good though

We cleaned up some sloppy mechanics but didn't change the overall functionality because we didn't see the need or demand. The only complaint that came from the vast majority of the SR community was the confusion about how to do rigger things and not what can a rigger do.

All fair.

I could probably write up a disertation on the subject...  For now I will try the condensed version.

What is, as far as you believe, the purpose of a Rigger in Shadowrun?

When your runner team is missing a Street Sam analog (Adept, Spirit Army, etc.), the first time you enter a combat you notice it.  It isn't that the team won't get through the encounter, it is that the encounter takes more in-game time, and likely your team suffers more damage, than if you have a combat monster available.

When your runner team is missing a Mojo-slinger, the first time you need a spellcaster, you notice it.  Again, the team can still get by, but the lack of Counterspelling or the missing Swiss Army Knife that magic brings to the table is obvious when you don't have a Mage analog in the team.

When you runner team is missing a Face, the first social encounter you have - likely a negotiation - will highlight it.  There is nothing stopping the team from getting through it, and with style, there is still a tangible effect that is clear it is missing.

When your runner team is missing a Matrix Jockey (particularly with a player who focuses on legwork), you notice it from the very first run.

When your team is missing a Rigger...  No one blinks an eye.  Maybe the players whine about not having a soccer mom ('cause we all know that players are clamoring to play a soccer mom), but having a bus driver doesn't really add anything to the game - and certainly not after the very first time the GM asks "how do you all get to the meet?"  After that it is easily assumed that the Soccer Mom does it.


Other than being a bankroll to buy team vehicles, what does a Rigger bring to the table?  Or, more to the point, what does a Rigger bring to the table that a Technomancer can't do, with a bag of chips (full on Decker capabilities, sprites, etc) to boot?

True the only thing a rigger specializes in is transportation and stunt driving, which depending on your play style and group dynamic is underwhelming and often unnecessary, but depending on how you load out there is a lot of versatility there.

With a well equipped drone or vehicle of the right type a rigger can play the role of the team combat monster, sniper, or overwatch guardian. You also have the option of setting up your gear to act as the teams matrix defender if you are lacking a decker. All in addition to being the cool Transporter.

Also true a TM can do all of the same things but not as good as the rigger

[Michael Chandra]

Don't forget a very important part of Drones: Spirits suck at noticing Drones. And a Covert Ops specialist can't fly, or crawl through a <5cm hole. A rigger can not only do that, but also take the wheel so you don't depend on the drone's dogbrain. Sure, anyone can command drones. But actually being the drone, with all the added advantages, that only a Rigger can do.

[Banshee]

Don't forget a very important part of Drones: Spirits suck at noticing Drones. And a Covert Ops specialist can't fly, or crawl through a <5cm hole. A rigger can not only do that, but also take the wheel so you don't depend on the drone's dogbrain. Sure, anyone can command drones. But actually being the drone, with all the added advantages, that only a Rigger can do.

+++1

[Singularity]

Also true a TM can do all of the same things but not as good as the rigger

How far does the TM lag behind in that regard?

[Banshee]

Also true a TM can do all of the same things but not as good as the rigger

How far does the TM lag behind in that regard?

currently a TM can only emulate a level 1 control rig and can't benefit from a RCC

[Michael Chandra]

Oh my, that got restricted to only 1 level? In SR5 they could take that Echo multiple times. That's an interesting nerf. (Mind you, many Riggers still stick to a Rating 1 due to expenses.)

Incidentally, I see +1 and +++1 but the geek in me is disappointed I never got a ++1. Still, all these pluses help make me feel more positive. *runs from the pun police*

[Iron Serpent Prince]

I'm going to butcher your post a bit, SSDR, just to lay it out in the order I wish to address it.

Which segues into what I think riggers do: they're jacks of all trades.

Unfortunately, Riggers aren't jacks of all trades.  A Mystic Adept is a jack of all trades - literally being able to do absolutely everything in the game except Matrix Jockey.  A Technomancer is a jack of all trades, being able to do absolutely everything in the game - as long as you count their "brand" of magic as magic.

Compared to either of those, the Rigger is an Aspected Magician.

In 6e (depending on how certain errata/clarifications go) they just might finally realize that status as being matrix powerhouses. No they're not going to outhack a Decker, but they potentially won't need a friendly hacker themselves to protect them from hostile hackers anymore.  And potentially even do some 2nd rate hacking, themselves.

I woudn't mind seeing this.  At least three quarters of my bitching about Riggers shifting to Matrix based piloting was making them unnecessarily (and unrealistically) vulnerable.



Anytime anyone says "the Rigger can do it with a drone!" what that really means is the Mage + Face can do it with a drone because they tend to have the spare cash to drop on an RCC and drones.

"The Rigger becomes the drone!"  So?  All that does (and 6e may address this) is shift natural healing for exorbitant, bankrupting, repair costs.


I dare say that anyone who defends Riggers in Shadowrun has never really tried to play them for more than a couple of sessions.

currently a TM can only emulate a level 1 control rig and can't benefit from a RCC

The RCC got a restriction all of a sudden?

[Singularity]

Unfortunately, Riggers aren't jacks of all trades.  A Mystic Adept is a jack of all trades - literally being able to do absolutely everything in the game except Matrix Jockey. 

I could have sworn I saw a character in the characters board that was a mystic adept and a decker? They didn't have cyberware that I remember, so I think they were one of the AR(?) hacking types. Did things get changed so that was no longer possible?

(Here it is, it was posted back in 2014: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=15932.0)

[Michael Chandra]

With decks being split into decks and cyberjacks, not so sure how hacking through trodes would work in SR6.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

@ ISP, Singularity:

Yeah, no contest about MysAds being the 5e jack of all trades and masters of all.  To include hacking- that's where I'll disagree with you ISP.  But them being OP isn't relevant to Riggers.  Yeah Riggers suck in comparison to MysAds. Everything does.  The fix isn't making Riggers be better than MysAds it's in nerfing MysAds, but that's for another thread

@ Repairs being a drain on the Nuyens:

I think you'll like what you see in 6e.

@ Anyone with a RCC and Drone can use a RCC and Drone:

Well, that's kind of the point. If the magician would rather spend nuyen on RCC, Drones, and Autosofts because let's be real, you're gonna need them if you're not jumping in... then more power to them.  That's Foci, Formulae, Lodges, etc they're not getting instead.  If that's the decision they want to make, why can't they make it?

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Yeah, no contest about MysAds being the 5e jack of all trades and masters of all.

"Riggers are great!  ... ...  If it wasn't for the other Archetypes."

Not only does that not really help, it only highlights the poor development procedures for Shadowrun.  Singularity, you are correct about using 'trodes to Deck.  I simply didn't count that for Mystical Adepts because it isn't part of the Mysticalness.

@ Repairs being a drain on the Nuyens:

I think you'll like what you see in 6e.

Well, that will at least put 6e back on my radar.  I do not have high hopes that 6e will deliver, but now I haven't discounted it without looking at it.

@ Anyone with a RCC and Drone can use a RCC and Drone:

Well, that's kind of the point. If the magician would rather spend nuyen on RCC, Drones, and Autosofts because let's be real, you're gonna need them if you're not jumping in... then more power to them.  That's Foci, Formulae, Lodges, etc they're not getting instead.  If that's the decision they want to make, why can't they make it?

You miss my point.  I'm not saying the Mage can't - or even shouldn't - add "drone bunny" to their CV.  My point is that people can not use drones to justify a Rigger's purpose when drones are available to all.  When every other character can use drones remotely just as well as the Rigger, then that can't be the Rigger's purpose.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Outside magic isn’t that the same for every archetype. You can’t talk about shooting because everyone can dump some skill points and buy a gun etc.