[FastJack]

B) even if he DOES, just because you're a world leader in microbiology and Skin Rash the CyberHobo mainly knows how to tell if the sour milk is still safe to drink, who cares WHO comes up with the clue based on microbial knowledge happens to positively affect the game? You're ostensibly both on the same team.  If you can't get over Skin Rash the CyberHobo beating you on a knowledge-skill enhanced check (probably due to fluke luck, as Skin Rash doesn't sound like has has awesome mental stats and presumably you do) it speaks more to your ability to roleplay than there being a deficiency in the rules assumption.  In my opinion.  Why not roll with it and make it a point of roleplay.  Get indignant in character.  Or offer Skin Rash the opportunity to join you in the sterile lab for some research... who knows what's breeding in his festering sores afterall?

"If you have a problem with this, then you're a jerk who can't roleplay!" Do you really think people can't see what you're trying to do here?

Nothing more than what you are doing. Now we can get along and stop making things personal, or I can hand out warnings to all involved.

[adzling]

6e really does seem to have taken simplification so far as to convert srun from a PnP rpg into a boardgame-like experience focussed on pink mohawk flavor and mechanics where the details don't matter and the outcomes are not connected to physics or anything IRL.

The constant refrain i am hearing is "but your concerns are irrelevant because WE don't think that stuff is at all important / we did not use that feature in our own games".

That simply illustrates the disconnect between the design process and the playerbase (or at least the deeply invested, highly engaged fans that come to this and other internet boards).

yaay?

[Moonshine Fox]

B) even if he DOES, just because you're a world leader in microbiology and Skin Rash the CyberHobo mainly knows how to tell if the sour milk is still safe to drink, who cares WHO comes up with the clue based on microbial knowledge happens to positively affect the game? You're ostensibly both on the same team.  If you can't get over Skin Rash the CyberHobo beating you on a knowledge-skill enhanced check (probably due to fluke luck, as Skin Rash doesn't sound like has has awesome mental stats and presumably you do) it speaks more to your ability to roleplay than there being a deficiency in the rules assumption.  In my opinion.  Why not roll with it and make it a point of roleplay.  Get indignant in character.  Or offer Skin Rash the opportunity to join you in the sterile lab for some research... who knows what's breeding in his festering sores afterall?

"If you have a problem with this, then you're a jerk who can't roleplay!" Do you really think people can't see what you're trying to do here?

 Considering how many of the complaints seem to boil down to “but my dice pool modifiers“, yeah it’s not a far guess that there is more concerned about roll-playing than role-playing.

[Ghost Rigger]

I take it you're not familiar with the Stormwind Fallacy.

[jim1701]

Knowledge Skills can be handled in this way using a very simple concept, it's called context.  It's creating a background for your character that's realistic and provides context on just how deep their knowledge is on a particular subject.  This context can change over the course of a PC's career based on his development, experience and active skill advancement.

[FastJack]

6e really does seem to have taken simplification so far as to convert srun from a PnP rpg into a boardgame-like experience focussed on pink mohawk flavor and mechanics where the details don't matter and the outcomes are not connected to physics or anything IRL.

The constant refrain i am hearing is "but your concerns are irrelevant because WE don't think that stuff is at all important / we did not use that feature in our own games".

That simply illustrates the disconnect between the design process and the playerbase (or at least the deeply invested, highly engaged fans that come to this and other internet boards).

yaay?

How is it a disconnect in the design process if the WE you're talking about is the playerbase that simply doesn't agree with you. I'm not saying that there isn't a disconnect, I'm just trying to get to the core issue here. I agree that the better games that have come out recently are because they've invited players to playtest new rules for a year or more before releasing a final product. But in this case, since (AFAIK) none of the users disagreeing with you are working for Catalyst, I don't think you can attribute it to the design process.

On another note, let's say (in a perfect universe), Catalyst had done playtesting of Sixth World for the past year, and these are still the rules they released because that's what the playtesters liked. What then?

I'm trying state the problem I'm seeing with everyone coming on the boards and being critical of rules that we haven't seen in their entirety. Is the problem that the individual doesn't like the rules that the majority thinks are okay, or is there a majority of those that don't like the rules and most are just not speaking out.

Hell, rules are there to do one thing: Determine if your cool idea works. If they become overly complicated, then your idea stops being cool once you're going through the fifth table. On the other hand, if they are too simplified, then every idea is cool and is successful. The trick is finding a balance. In my opinion, Shadowrun has trouble finding that balance because they have to write rules for three different games (Matrix, Magic, and Meat) and make sure they are tied together and work together so no one gets left behind. If simplifying the rules gets closer to that objective, I'm willing to give it a shot.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

On another note, let's say (in a perfect universe), Catalyst had done playtesting of Sixth World for the past year, and these are still the rules they released because that's what the playtesters liked. What then?

Then?

Then we can (hopefully) accept that the statistical majority of the player base do not agree with our take on the game.

Right now?

Unless I have missed it, we do not even have enough transparency to know the size of the playtest group.  I am pretty sure we do not have any real evidence that there was a playtest group.

I'm not claiming any conspiracy theory here.  I'm not accusing Catalyst of anything underhanded.  I'm only pointing out that as a consumer we can't really judge the depth of the playtest.

Personally, if the playtest group(s) totaled less than a hundred I would call shenanigans on any results they come up with.

Then again, if their playtest procedure is anything like the errata procedure at the end of 5e...  It could be done by millions and still not produce anything of note in the final product. 

[Shinobi Killfist]

B) even if he DOES, just because you're a world leader in microbiology and Skin Rash the CyberHobo mainly knows how to tell if the sour milk is still safe to drink, who cares WHO comes up with the clue based on microbial knowledge happens to positively affect the game? You're ostensibly both on the same team.  If you can't get over Skin Rash the CyberHobo beating you on a knowledge-skill enhanced check (probably due to fluke luck, as Skin Rash doesn't sound like has has awesome mental stats and presumably you do) it speaks more to your ability to roleplay than there being a deficiency in the rules assumption.  In my opinion.  Why not roll with it and make it a point of roleplay.  Get indignant in character.  Or offer Skin Rash the opportunity to join you in the sterile lab for some research... who knows what's breeding in his festering sores afterall?

"If you have a problem with this, then you're a jerk who can't roleplay!" Do you really think people can't see what you're trying to do here?

 Considering how many of the complaints seem to boil down to “but my dice pool modifiers“, yeah it’s not a far guess that there is more concerned about roll-playing than role-playing.

Oddly I see it the exact opposite way. The modifiers aren’t a muh modifier roll play thing but a role play thing. As are the lack of ranks of some kind to knowledge skills.

The lack of these items pushes towards a more board games roll play than a role play. You can role play or roll play in pretty much any game but it’s design influences things in certain directions. To
Me this pushes toward roll play.

[Banshee]

6e really does seem to have taken simplification so far as to convert srun from a PnP rpg into a boardgame-like experience focussed on pink mohawk flavor and mechanics where the details don't matter and the outcomes are not connected to physics or anything IRL.

The constant refrain i am hearing is "but your concerns are irrelevant because WE don't think that stuff is at all important / we did not use that feature in our own games".

That simply illustrates the disconnect between the design process and the playerbase (or at least the deeply invested, highly engaged fans that come to this and other internet boards).

yaay?

Can I also add that the most vocal dissidents appear to be the same dozen or so people across multiple platforms that is just a very vocal minority from what I can tell. 

So is that really a disconnect with the player base, when the player base is thousands of people? I personally play tested 6E with 4 different groups for a total of 22 different people geographically located from all over the US and other countries as well. Plus when you add in the several hundred people that ran through demo's at Origins two weeks ago that all came away happy ... I just don't see a foundation for your logic.

I will also go on record to say that one more round of playtesting that was more open would have been a tremendous help, but I think at best that would only had minor changes and/or clarifications worked out, not an overhaul of the core mechanics.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I’m only seeing the same handful of people cheerleading as well so woo small numbers of people are talking about it altogether.

[Banshee]

I’m only seeing the same handful of people cheerleading as well so woo small numbers of people are talking about it altogether.

true, not a lot of people talking about it in general yet ... like I said it seemed to go over well at Origins and I am curious to see how it goes at Gencon since we have actual live events scheduled there where we can get more accurate feedback

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'd also like to add that while some of the "pro-6e" folk are relatively established regulars, seems to me at least as many are people new to the forum who are only here BECAUSE of 6e.  If nothing else, 6e has already grown our forum community here at least.

I think even among the "pro-6e" crowd of which I'm presumably a part, I think most if not all of us have our gripes with it as well.

[FastJack]

I’m only seeing the same handful of people cheerleading as well so woo small numbers of people are talking about it altogether.

But I am seeing a lot of new forum members logging a lot of hours, but lurking as we all post this. Hence why I'd like criticism to stay constructive so we don't scare them off.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I’m only seeing the same handful of people cheerleading as well so woo small numbers of people are talking about it altogether.

true, not a lot of people talking about it in general yet ... like I said it seemed to go over well at Origins and I am curious to see how it goes at Gencon since we have actual live events scheduled there where we can get more accurate feedback

Until people take it home and play it in their own campaigns it’s hard to say one way or the other. One offs have a different threshold than a campaign.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I’m only seeing the same handful of people cheerleading as well so woo small numbers of people are talking about it altogether.

But I am seeing a lot of new forum members logging a lot of hours, but lurking as we all post this. Hence why I'd like criticism to stay constructive so we don't scare them off.

I think for the most part we have. I think every complaint I’ve had I’ve spun up house rules or potential optional rules that could fit into the system. Described not just that I had a issue but to be best of my capabilities why. And I think the small number of vocal detractors for the most part have done the same.