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Knowledge Skills in 6e

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« Reply #90 on: <07-14-19/1638:50> »
I mean, any system that has GM fiat can lead to players arguing with the GM over it.

Plus half of the "but what if they beg for a cookie!" hand wringing could equally be contextualized as "but what if the players engage with the game world because they're paying attention to things!"

Hobbes

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« Reply #91 on: <07-14-19/1640:44> »

It also encourages PCs to define Knowledge skills as broadly as possible and ask for dice/edge/cookies more frequently. 


Why yes I would like some Cookies :D

How do you roll a these knowledge skills? Logic x2? Logic+Int?

No roll.  If you have an appropriate Knowledge Skill your character just knows "something". 

Marcus

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« Reply #92 on: <07-14-19/1745:32> »
Does this mean no cookie? ;-;
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #93 on: <07-14-19/1751:31> »

It also encourages PCs to define Knowledge skills as broadly as possible and ask for dice/edge/cookies more frequently. 


Why yes I would like some Cookies :D

How do you roll a these knowledge skills? Logic x2? Logic+Int?

No roll.  If you have an appropriate Knowledge Skill your character just knows "something".
Not exactly. I think Rudw's file has an example.
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #94 on: <07-14-19/1802:22> »
Wouldn't you make a simple memory test to recall things about knowledge skill in question? Probably just apply varying thresholds based on how obscure the knowledge would be.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #95 on: <07-14-19/1804:11> »
I mean, any system that has GM fiat can lead to players arguing with the GM over it.

Plus half of the "but what if they beg for a cookie!" hand wringing could equally be contextualized as "but what if the players engage with the game world because they're paying attention to things!"

Could encourage them to bring them up more often rather then sitting dusty and forgotten on a character sheet. I can never remember what knowledge skills my players have taken, especially interest based ones.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #96 on: <07-14-19/1812:55> »
Wouldn't you make a simple memory test to recall things about knowledge skill in question? Probably just apply varying thresholds based on how obscure the knowledge would be.

It's fairly free form in application, but I can very much see this.  And in the case of a hypothetical microbiology knowledge test, I might even potentially  allow a lower threshold for the same answer when rolled by a "world class microbiologist-turned-shadowrunner" than by Murder Hobo, the Walking Skin Rash.
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Voran

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« Reply #97 on: <07-23-19/1827:19> »
the fun thing about 'irl' is that you can learn things...well...wrong.  I'm sure we've all met people with degrees that are just...wrong in their understanding of it.  Or dated, so while 'true in the 80s your school of thought is now considered outdated and barbaric in the near 2020s' kind of thing.  I imagine the game abstracts it, handwaving that a 'point in this skill means 'as of most current period'

mechanically, i think part of the issue has always been, "i have to pay karma to have this, is it worth the cost?'.  We talk about 'it gives your character flavor!' but it leads to "well either I try to min/max this, or I create a knowledge/etc that is pure fluff and never useful unless the GM twists the session to make it useful'.

Typhus

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« Reply #98 on: <07-24-19/2354:44> »
This is a little long, but I thought I would weigh in on this in case any of my thoughts help others see a positive to this approach to knowledge skills, because it actually checks a box for me with what I want from a new edition. 

There was a question of how much a character knows in an unranked skill system.  I find that an easy answer, personally.  Here it is.  This is a game world where the whole of the Matrix is accessible via your commlink.  You have super google, quite literally at your fingertips.  A decker (or anyone) could conceivably even have their commlink's audio and contact's video sensors grabbing keywords and searching relevant terms and images live as they occur from context clues in the environment.  Everyone can be at amateur "shadowgoogle" levels, and I assume that trivia level knowledge about the game world is omnipresent.  So , as a contrast to that, the investment of chargen resources into a flat skill means the flat skill already automatically exceeds that default level.  So they are not amateurs or dabblers.  They know their stuff.

Could they have earned a PhD level degree in this at some point?  Sure!  Can they harness that degree of knowledge at this stage of their character's life?  Spirits NO! Why?  They are shadowrunners.  Their existence is defined by living illegally in a world that they have to fight to survive in moment-to-moment.  They have old enemies, treacherous Johnsons, random paracritters and gangs, social upheavals, Lone Star raids, and all manner of other things to deal with, and that was just Tuesday.  That's not an environment where you can stay in tune with the latest discoveries and greatest theories, tech concepts, etc. Not enough to stay at those levels constantly anyway and keep them top of mind at all times.  If SOTA is moving as fast as SR presents, what you knew last year is now old news, plus the soykrill is getting low and your last trip to Stuffer Shack ended in a Food Fight.  You have Serious Trust Issues eating up your cognitive bandwidth everywhere you look.  You won't lose the fundamentals, but nor will you always be up to speed or sharp enough to grab every salient detail you otherwise could if you had a less hostile lifestyle.  So, you are not a functional master of any subject either (by comparison to an Academic glued to the trideo and Matrix all day).  So you fall somewhere between "better than Shadowgoogle" and "distracted/lapsed expert".  That's not an unreasonable place to drop people in a system that handwaves specifics to the degree that 6e does.  It's also why you can't always pass a skill check even with a +2 bonus.  You just can't pull it out of your fanny in that specific moment, even with your PhD.  However, you didn't forget the fundamentals, nor are you an ignorant hack.  The GM can ensure that feeling just by handwaving away a need to roll in some cases.  In doing so, the GM can create a level of allowing the character to feel special and have the choice be important.  You knew about an aspect of the mission that others did not.  It just happened because you put the points into that area.  Now those points mattered more than Elven Wines 5 or Seattle Gangs 2.  I can still do that same thing with a system with ranked skills, sure.  It doesn't mean a big change for me in how I leverage a knowledge skill in a player's favor.  I want them to know things.  I want their investment of points/picks to matter. 

Now, all that said, maybe a static bonus may still not have the feel you want.  To me, here's where the context of the skill is more relevant.  I would find out from the player how and where the character acquired their knowledge skill.  Depending on the backstory, I might be inclined as a GM to give even more of a bonus.  Here's an example.  Player is meeting with an NPC that loves computer theory.  The player character also has that skill, and needs to convince the NPC to agree to be extracted.  They engage the NPC in banter about said subject.  The player has already told me the context they learned this skill in happens to be at a university, and that the character earned a degree in it before having to flee to the shadows.  In this case, the backstory to the NPC happens to be similar.  The player's character can not only talk knowledgeably about the subject, there are personal connections for both characters.  In this case, I might offer the player a bonus to their social skill to convince the NPC.  I might lower the threshold required or maybe just give the character a +3 bonus instead, whatever feels right for the scenario.  By contrast, a character who instead learned the knowledge on the street has a different context, and tends to know a bunch of jankity shortcuts, and while on the bleeding edge, is a little less likely to appeal to the high-mindedness of an academically grounded researcher like my NPC.  For an archetype, think Kaylee Frye from Firefly.  The context doesn't align, so I wouldn't give exactly the same bonus.  They can still dazzle with acumen, but the flavor may offset it slightly. 

So, I view having an unranked skill base be an asset to improvise around.

Next area of concern I saw expressed here was how to test with it.  Rules unseen, I would also default to the context here too.  If the character is trying to recall it from their studies, roll for Memory, add the +2.  If that roll fails, they can't recall, BUT they would certainly know where and how to search on the matrix, so make that test instead, still with that +2 bonus.  If that crapped out, its time to ask a like-minded contact in that field.  Now its a bonus to the social skill test or maybe the contact uses their skill check instead for that subject.  As mentioned previously, using Perception to spot details that the character would pick out, also a good option, but basically any excuse to bring it into play is a reward to the player's choice. 

I would also try to make this feel distinct from general 'shadowrunner' knowledge, which I credit all characters with having.  The player won't usually know the world very well, so I provide it by starting my answers to questions (or providing guidance) with "As an experienced shadowrunner, you would know (x)".  I would also apply that same logic when providing a reveal with a knowledge skill, as the rules apparently will also suggest.  I credit the character with baseline helpful ideas as starting points, so the player has something to run with.  When I look back at times players made horrendously bad choices, many times it was my failure to educate them on consequences.  Other times, they just really wanted to shoot the Space Needle with a rocket launcher.  That's probably also on me for letting them get that bored, though.  Or we were all just 19 and squirrely. 

I digress.

On the flip side, where I would draw the line is at insider knowledge.  So, just because you have the Ares Macrotechnology skill in no way means that you will know the guard rotation at the facility you are about to raid.  After looking at the context the player has for the skill, I would provide the default reveals I am comfortable with providing that don't give away the surprises, but yet also tease the player into thinking ahead.  They wouldn't know any old passcodes, but they would also be aware enough not to try one anyway.  To get insider knowledge, they have to do legwork and/or hit the shadownets to see what they can dig up.  That's always a side quest level event. 

So to me, a flexible skill, further defined by character concepts and background would drive the resolution, help set the tone and reward the backstory.  How I use the skill with player A also gives the clue to the other players that they should add some depth we can play off of.  Now they are all thinking how it is that they came to know about Elven Culture and why the character likes their wine so much.  When it comes around to be useful, they get a very personal reward from it (if I did my job right).  Seeing how I'm using it, that side quest for insider knowledge can now serve to cause other players look at their sheet and see how they can help.  Maybe the social intel they need is with that NPC who loves Elven Wines.  (As the GM I can also just make that true, if I want to further provide rewards, and that sounds like something I would do if it didn't feel too ham-handed in the moment).

One thing I definitely hope for though, is better guidance to players in this edition for where to set the breadth of knowledge.  That was part of my turn off to the way 4 and 5 did it.  I suppose, since the default knowledge level is "somewhere in the middle", that's where the skill breadth should land too.  I shouldn't allow "arcana", but "hermetic arcana" is fine.  Conversely, "magical foci" is probably too narrow.  Somewhere in the middle is fine, and ill-defined is good, not bad.  There's your TL;DR takeaway.  I hope these thoughts were helpful to you as players and GMs. 

kyoto kid

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« Reply #99 on: <07-28-19/0316:06> »
...OK so take my character Leela who's background was a child prodigy musician (early in life) and later a member of a resistance cell in an occupied country.

In the latter, her specialty was demolitions, so related knowledge would likely include structural engineering, chemistry, mathematics, architecture, physics, and possibly civil engineering (bridges roads etc). As she also worked as part of an underground guerrilla force, knowledge of the local underground, small unit tactics, combat tactics, military procedure (as most cells tend to follow a chain of command structure), security procedures (assessing guard and patrol routines) and safehouses would make sense.  Following her extraction from the war and living in Chicago a couple years additional knowledge would include Local Chicago gangs, CZ area (as that is likely where she would end up spending most of her time), local runner hangouts, and possibly awakened threats (the CZ is full of those).  Rounding her out with some interests, she would have classical music, trid heroes (Neil The Ork Barbarian), fireworks (her father was one of Europe's premier pyrotechnicians), and "footy" (her older brother was an up and coming footballer in the Zagreb youth league).  Finally, For languages she'd have Croatian (her native language) Russian (the language of the occupation force), English (which pretty much is spoken world wide, particularly in Europe), Latin (being Catholic), and possibly Italian (extension of Latin and useful in music). 

Now that is more than she started with under 5E even given her Logic of 5 (7 augmented) and intuition of 5.

The 5E version of the character also has the Jack of all Trades quality, so during her career, she essentially soaked up skills like a sponge.  She would often add new or increase knowledge skills, particularly if she discovered something new that caught her interest and felt could be helpful. For example after being on a mission to the Shattergraves and seeing bug spirits for the first time she took time to learn as much as she could about them (which came in very handy in Season 8 ),  She also picked up a basic knowledge of spirits in general having encountered different type over time (which also came in handy). 

In 5E this was easy to manage as she just spent downtime and Karma to pick up and/or improve a knowledge skill. However with the more "arbitrary" way knowledge skills are handled in 6E not sure how this will work. I find it odd just saying that between missions she has this new skill or picked up a new language.
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FastJack

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« Reply #100 on: <07-28-19/0939:34> »
In 5E this was easy to manage as she just spent downtime and Karma to pick up and/or improve a knowledge skill. However with the more "arbitrary" way knowledge skills are handled in 6E not sure how this will work. I find it odd just saying that between missions she has this new skill or picked up a new language.
You do know that saying you spent your downtime in 5E to spend karma to pick up a new skill is the same as saying the same thing in 6E?

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #101 on: <07-28-19/1103:29> »
In 5E this was easy to manage as she just spent downtime and Karma to pick up and/or improve a knowledge skill. However with the more "arbitrary" way knowledge skills are handled in 6E not sure how this will work. I find it odd just saying that between missions she has this new skill or picked up a new language.
You do know that saying you spent your downtime in 5E to spend karma to pick up a new skill is the same as saying the same thing in 6E?

I think it was dumb in 5e as well but 6e made it worse by increasing the recommended times even further. 6e most campaigns will be done by the time you improve a stat once. Not because it takes too long to earn karma but because it take another dozen runs to or finally see it.

FastJack

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« Reply #102 on: <07-28-19/1215:08> »
Or... you're runners aren't working one job after another. There may be weeks or months of downtime between runs, which pretty much means that's all training.

I mean, I get that runners are a great service to the corps, but are your runners the only ones the corps call? Are they the best in the business? Are they so busy that they have to tell fixers and Mr. Johnson's that they can't take that mission because they have four others already lined up for the next three weeks?

C'mon guys, you're complaining about the rules that are supposed to work when your runners aren't running.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #103 on: <07-28-19/1314:21> »
Or... you're runners aren't working one job after another. There may be weeks or months of downtime between runs, which pretty much means that's all training.

I mean, I get that runners are a great service to the corps, but are your runners the only ones the corps call? Are they the best in the business? Are they so busy that they have to tell fixers and Mr. Johnson's that they can't take that mission because they have four others already lined up for the next three weeks?

C'mon guys, you're complaining about the rules that are supposed to work when your runners aren't running.

Because the rules don’t actually work. I get paid 10,000 nuyen and I won’t work again until I’m broke?  The guidelines are terrible. Unless your campaign isn’t a campaign but just a couple one shots the training rules just don’t work. They add nothing of value to the game, not realism, not ease of play, literally nothing is gained by these training rules.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #104 on: <07-28-19/1351:10> »
In 6WE there are no established training times. The rule is training takes whatever period of time the GM wants it to take.  The charts given in the CRB are literally only a suggestion.  I'll grant that I also think they're a terrible suggestion, but the fact remains they're only a suggestion.  Training time can instead be measured in days or even hours, if the GM sees fit.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.