[FastJack]

Please keep all remarks polite. Insulting the intelligence of ANYONE will not be tolerated on this board.

[fougerec99]

Next time you are at a fast food place (assuming you visit them), pay in cash and minimize the amount of change the cashier has to return.  I bet you'll blow their mind.  ((Example:  I had an order that was 6.28.  I gave the nice lady behind the counter 11.28, and she tried to argue with me that I'm paying too much.  I told her to just enter it into the register, and it will take care of the rest.  While she was handing me back the $5 bill she was all a-wonder asking me "how did you do that?" as if I was some sort of magician.))

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I use debit for 99.5% of my transactions.  It's rare here to find a place that doesn't take debit so yes basic math skills in regards to making change can be troublesome for some because they are so infrequently used.

When I was trying to run Sixth World, and having to track (almost) everyone elses Edge pool and gains for them - just so I could make sure they didn't screw themselves out of a single point (remember, even 1 point of Edge is significant) it showed the flaws in the system.

That honestly sounds like you're making more work for yourself.  Whether it's necessary or not is dependent on your group but that's not a flaw with the system.  If I tracked everyone's hit points in my D&D game it would also cause an exponentially greater work load for me.  That's not the system, which despite any flaws has been a staple for decades, that's a decision I made for my group.

Momentum is a much easier system to track.

  Yes, but it's also only one of two pools the players are tracking as there's also Luck/Fortune/Determination (depending on which variety of 2d20 you're playing) which are functionally different than Momentum.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The way I've run 6we is everyone stacks two chips in front of them at the start of a new round.  Once you've taken two to add to your pile, you know there's no more to take until the next round.  Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

I like that, thanks. That seems pretty easy to remember.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I get that it's different and people don't like it.  That's subjective but people are talking like it's objectively difficult to track or do math on etc. and I'm wondering if I'm missing something or not

One of the the issues I've seen in these forums is how to keep track of Edge gains throughout the turn, especially Edge generated by sequential actions within each player's activation.

Like a wired up Street Sam with two majors getting two Edge by attacking a low DR target, then immediately spending it on their second attack on a different target, which may grant them a 3rd or 4th Edge on their activation. Technically their net Edge for their activation was 2-2+2=2. Do they get to keep the 2 net Edge?

I legitimately do no understand what is so hard about tracking Edge. I've played a few games with it now and, having taken complete newcomers to Shadowrun, watched them grasp the concept without issue. I don't know what is so hard to understand about gaining a maximum of 3 Edge per round regardless of how many things you are involved in. Did you hit the 2 Edge per round cap? No, then gain Edge until you do. If yes, don't gain Edge. When combat is over, any points of Edge over your Edge attribute are lost. Simple, easy, and straight forward. If you want to make it even easier, use poker chips. You only need 7.

It’s not the concept people have a hard time understanding it’s just remembering to do and track things.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

The way I've run 6we is everyone stacks two chips in front of them at the start of a new round.  Once you've taken two to add to your pile, you know there's no more to take until the next round.  Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Kind of like the method penllawen and I discussed when s/he brought up the "3 piles" idea.

Do note that you need 9 chips / tokens to track this consistently, because even if you start a turn with 7 Edge Points, you still have the potential to gain 2 that turn - just not until you have to spend some.
If you don't have the 2 extra tokens for that, you have to remember to "spend" to the "potential" pile, and if you happen to spend and then gain 1, you have to remember that you already pulled one.

This may not be a hassle for all tables, it is just something to watch out for because it might be a hassle to to some.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

so yes basic math skills in regards to making change can be troublesome for some because they are so infrequently used.

Emphasis is mine.  If basic math can be troublesome in making change because basic math is so infrequently used, then it also stands that basic math can be troublesome in other areas of everyday life because basic math is infrequently used.

Can you honestly tell me you haven't had the "discussion" with a teen over why they have to use basic math when their smartphone has a calculator?

That honestly sounds like you're making more work for yourself.  Whether it's necessary or not is dependent on your group but that's not a flaw with the system.  If I tracked everyone's hit points in my D&D game it would also cause an exponentially greater work load for me.  That's not the system, which despite any flaws has been a staple for decades, that's a decision I made for my group.

That is a false equivalency.

Hit Points in D&D are updated less frequently, and at the end of a significant action.  The bad guy hits you, your team mate heals you, etc...
The action is determined, and resolved, and then you record the result.

Edge in Sixth World changes in the middle of an action.  It can happen multiple times, both increasing and decreasing, in the very same player turn.  D&D Hit Points do not fluctuate that fast.

On top of that, being off on Hit Points by 1 or 2 will rarely change the outcome of an encounter.

Being off by 1 or 2 Edge Points is much more significant in Sixth World.

Yes, but it's also only one of two pools the players are tracking as there's also Luck/Fortune/Determination (depending on which variety of 2d20 you're playing) which are functionally different than Momentum.

That is also not entirely true.  When I run ST:A, it is almost always on Roll20.  There it is so much easier for me to be the only one to track Momentum.  I'm the only one with authority over the tracking token, and I'm the only one who has to do math.

For Determination, that too is a metric drek ton easier to track than Edge because it happens much less frequently, and it occurs (other than when you spend it) because of a fairly significant RP situation.

It isn't "tracked in the background" during other actions.

Remember, Edge is supposed to speed up combat - not require referencing flow charts.

Again, this may not be a problem at many tables.  That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  That doesn't mean it is okay to deliberately overlook those that it can affect.

[ZeroSum]

I haven't played 6th Edition yet, but I've been watching people play it on stream. My initial observations are that:
1. Edge was implemented to simplify the previous Modifiers system from 4th and 5th
2. Edge initially sounds easy, because
   a. You start with a number of Edge equal to your attribute
   b. You can gain a maximum of 2 Edge per round
   c. You can spent Edge, but only once per round (though the same Edge spend can be multiplied (for example, spend 2 Edge to re-roll two dice))
3. Despite 2, Edge quickly becomes quite complex because the number of times you have to determine who has edge is no less complex (at least in my opinion) than the old modifiers
   a. This is especially prevalent in larger fights, where multiple PCs are engaging multiple NPCs and you have to figure out who has Edge against whom
4. Ultimately, this is likely just as confusing as going from Target Numbers in 3rd Edition to 4th Editions Hit Dice was. I remember a lot of BB and IRC chatter about this back in the day, and it does seem to me that it will take a fair amount of practice for both GMs and players to be able to reliably tell who has Edge (if any) without referencing the book

TL;DR
I don't have an inherent problem with the Edge mechanic, but I can definitely identify with the change in mechanics from my time from 3rd and 4th Editions and I can see how it might take more time to learn than it initially seems like it would.

[Noble Drake]

Edge is marginally easier to deal with than the old dice pool modifiers, in my experience.

With Edge you basically compare AR to DR of your opponent once, and it's easy to remember for the rest of the time you are dealing with that opponent. And you do the estimation of whether there is a mismatch in ability to mitigate situational modifiers once, and it's easy to remember for the rest of the time those situational modifiers apply. So if you are sword fighting someone in a dark alley, you know part way through round 1 who gets how much Edge every round until the opponent or the conditions change.

With dice pool modifiers, you know just as quickly who has an adjustment to something... but it's a little trickier to remember how much the penalty is, how much you reduce the penalty (if you do), and the like.

Both are pretty equally resolved by making a quick note in the margins of a character sheet though, so really my opinion on the matter comes down to me preferring Edge because I (the constant GM) only need to remember at the level of detail of fight complications like darkness exist, and if you have a means to get over the complications and your opponent doesn't you have an Edge, rather than needing to reference a table of modifiers and constantly say things to players like "Don't forget that -1 die penalty" and constantly having players ask "...did you remember my armor penetration on that soak roll?" and such.

And my experience thus far is that it's not confusing to any of my players... but then, neither was the transition from moving target numbers of SR3 to the "counts as a hit" of SR4. In fact, both transitions have been met with "that's a lot less confusing, sounds cool" from my group.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It’s not edge or dice pool modifiers it’s and.

Many situations apply a condition which then are dice pool modifiers. That’s why I don’t see the ease. It’s not super complicated but it doesn’t feel streamlined to us. Maybe after more use it will but so far it’s slower harder to remember because it’s dice mods and edge.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I've noticed, as a rule of thumb, it's the situational modifiers that get replaced by circumstantial edge.  Weapon bonuses went to AR.  The dice pool penalties that remain are universal stuff, like wound modifiers, Matrix Noise, etc.

In combat, yes you have to compare AR vs DR but it's fast, and you usually only have to do it once. AR will change with firing modes, but DRs should remain static during a fight.  After that, it's just a question for the GM of who has a meaningful circumstantial advantage in this test: you, me, or nobody.  That last part is what's way faster than searching for and tallying up dice modifiers.

[Ghost Rigger]

In combat, yes you have to compare AR vs DR but it's fast, and you usually only have to do it once. AR will change with firing modes, but DRs should remain static during a fight.  After that, it's just a question for the GM of who has a meaningful circumstantial advantage in this test: you, me, or nobody.  That last part is what's way faster than searching for and tallying up dice modifiers.

And for no significant loss of functionality, you could save even more time by not using edge at all. Makes you miss your modifiers and soak dice, doesn't it?

[Hephaestus]

I've noticed, as a rule of thumb, it's the situational modifiers that get replaced by circumstantial edge.  Weapon bonuses went to AR.  The dice pool penalties that remain are universal stuff, like wound modifiers, Matrix Noise, etc.

In combat, yes you have to compare AR vs DR but it's fast, and you usually only have to do it once. AR will change with firing modes, but DRs should remain static during a fight.  After that, it's just a question for the GM of who has a meaningful circumstantial advantage in this test: you, me, or nobody.  That last part is what's way faster than searching for and tallying up dice modifiers.

Is it really simpler though?

The 5th ed process: Tally up dice pool modifiers from gear/augments/spells/environment, roll dice.

There are 2 edge actions available (Push the Limit to add edge dice before OR after the roll, or Second Chance to re-roll misses) for this process.

The 6th ed process: Tally up bonuses and penalties to attack ratings, compare for edge gain/denial, tally up dice pool modifiers from gear/augments/spells (emphasis mine), roll dice, then spend edge to manipulate the result as desired.

There are 24 edge actions available, of which 3 directly influence your opponent's roll/edge, and two are unopposed tests that either disarm or KO your opponent.

Granted there are more modifiers to the rolls for 5th, but that is because they are the only factor for altering dice pools. And similar to your example of a sword fight, most of the gear/augment/spell modifiers in 5th can be tallied up before an encounter, so modifiers in-encounter are usually only situational or environmental.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I've noticed, as a rule of thumb, it's the situational modifiers that get replaced by circumstantial edge.  Weapon bonuses went to AR.  The dice pool penalties that remain are universal stuff, like wound modifiers, Matrix Noise, etc.

In combat, yes you have to compare AR vs DR but it's fast, and you usually only have to do it once. AR will change with firing modes, but DRs should remain static during a fight.  After that, it's just a question for the GM of who has a meaningful circumstantial advantage in this test: you, me, or nobody.  That last part is what's way faster than searching for and tallying up dice modifiers.

Is it really simpler though?

The 5th ed process: Tally up dice pool modifiers from gear/augments/spells/environment, roll dice.

There are 2 edge actions available (Push the Limit to add edge dice before OR after the roll, or Second Chance to re-roll misses) for this process.

The 6th ed process: Tally up bonuses and penalties to attack ratings, compare for edge gain/denial, tally up dice pool modifiers from gear/augments/spells (emphasis mine), roll dice, then spend edge to manipulate the result as desired.

There are 24 edge actions available, of which 3 directly influence your opponent's roll/edge, and two are unopposed tests that either disarm or KO your opponent.

Granted there are more modifiers to the rolls for 5th, but that is because they are the only factor for altering dice pools. And similar to your example of a sword fight, most of the gear/augment/spell modifiers in 5th can be tallied up before an encounter, so modifiers in-encounter are usually only situational or environmental.

Well, "tallying up the 5e dice pool modifiers" isn't exactly a single, fast step.  There are dozens of situational modifiers to evaluate (29 are listed on the GM screen, there's even more in the 5e CRB). And that's before environmental modifiers which get increasingly complex as they interact with each other, and of course there's the range penalties which vary from gun type to gun type.  Yeah, some players/GMs might have all that memorized and can come up with a total in a moment or two, but most players/GM's do not have that Rain Man level gift.  OTOH, it does reasonably only take a moment or two for a GM to judge whether attacker, defender, or neither enjoys a meaningful advantage relative to the other.

Furthermore, the other steps go faster in 6we as well.  Figuring the range between attacker and defender? Gotta do it in both systems, but at least in 6we it's a standardized range band.  Adding bonus dice from gear etc? Yes 6we still has them, but in 6we bonus dice cap out at +4 so you can still count your bonuses on one hand even if you're missing a finger.  Shouldn't take very long for that, either

[Shinobi Killfist]

While 5e has a ton of modifiers many were the same one scaling and others were pretty niche and rarely came up. Gameplay wise you probably had to remember a handful and occasionally look up the odd ones like strong winds. They definitely could have been simplified. 6es issue for me as I stated it’s not intuitive to me when I should be looking for relative advantage(I hate that on its own)to award edge o
or when I should be looking for a appropriate dice pool penalty modifier. Like smoke isn’t edge it effects blindness which is a dice pool mod. But other things that effect visibility might be edge. There may be a method to it, but I’m not sure what it is so I’m looking in books more than I did in 5e. Because being off by a die or toe on a roll isn’t a huge deal so I felt freer to just say okay -6 dice -4 with x mods.

I kind of wish they had just whittled it down to something like the environmental modifiers chart in 5e but making it clear they were just a small list of examples for each tier and include things like autofire that list, add a size thing as part of visibility. Glare could be rolled into viability. That way you remember 4 types of penalties with 3-4 levels and that’s it. I’d find that easy to wing.

[Hephaestus]

Well, "tallying up the 5e dice pool modifiers" isn't exactly a single, fast step.  There are dozens of situational modifiers to evaluate (29 are listed on the GM screen, there's even more in the 5e CRB). And that's before environmental modifiers which get increasingly complex as they interact with each other, and of course there's the range penalties which vary from gun type to gun type.  Yeah, some players/GMs might have all that memorized and can come up with a total in a moment or two, but most players/GM's do not have that Rain Man level gift.  OTOH, it does reasonably only take a moment or two for a GM to judge whether attacker, defender, or neither enjoys a meaningful advantage relative to the other.

Furthermore, the other steps go faster in 6we as well.  Figuring the range between attacker and defender? Gotta do it in both systems, but at least in 6we it's a standardized range band.  Adding bonus dice from gear etc? Yes 6we still has them, but in 6we bonus dice cap out at +4 so you can still count your bonuses on one hand even if you're missing a finger.  Shouldn't take very long for that, either

Oh, I'm not discounting the number of modifiers in 5th. There are a drek-load. But in the same vein as players in 6th pre-stacking their AR/DR modifiers before checking AR/DR, most of the 5e players I play with pre-stack any relevant gear/aug/spell modifiers before they get into the encounters.

And the AR/DR comparison, after all applicable modifiers, only decides which way the edge rolls (to me, to you, or off the table). You still have to add/subtract any dice pool/threshold modifiers, which are largely applied by gear, augs, spells, and the environment. In that respect, it still feels like 5th, but with an extra mechanic. Smartgun Systems are a great example of this, offering both an AR bonus and a dice pool bonus.

As for range bands, I'm all for a unified system of ranges. That is a solid idea coming out of the full page table in 5th. My two critiques of the new range bands:

1) The bands assigned to some weapons don't make sense. Why do throwing knives have a medium range band (250m)? Or shotguns? Or thrown grenades?

2) Why is there no cap on extreme range? At face value this doesn't seem like an issue, until a savvy Decker or Rigger starts launching guided missiles from kilometers away using matrix signatures or scouting drones to pick targets. You could pretty easily turn a truck into an MLRS at chargen (173,000¥ for a Toyota Gopher with 2 Heavy weapon Mounts, 2 Onotari Interceptors, and 24 Rating 6 Guided Missiles... or go balls out and drop 380,000¥ for a Roadmaster with 3 HWMs, 3 Interceptors, and 54 Rating 6 Guided Missiles) and ace targets in downtown Seattle from the Redmond Barrens.