[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Unlike previous editions there are no rules in SR6 that allow you to keep any of your customization karma post chargen....

Which is what means that you can carry any amount you would like to post chargen. You are explicitly given it to spend as you see fit, and not told you will lose it if you don't spend it - rules don't stay as they were in prior editions by default, they have to be stated in the new edition too or they don't exist.

Well, a problem with that logic is if you accept that, then you also have to accept the possibility of saving attribute and/or skill points from priority pick: it never says use or lose on those, either...

[ZeroSum]

While that is fair, there is also no mechanism to use said adjustment/attribute/skill points post-chargen. That is not the case for Karma.

[Michael Chandra]

A GM can always put their foot down, but yeah, the rules should be explicit about a cap or lack thereof. I would prefer a cap that's not 0. And yeah, we need rules about how exactly PP from Magic are connected to Essence Loss. I hope the errata will clarify, which is why I'm not touching Adepts or Mystics with an 11-foot-pole until the errata come out. Too messy a debate.

[CigarSmoker]

Difference is not as big as you seem to think it is...


After a lot of post chargen juggling at magic rating 1 you will eventually end up with a 1 power point from chargen, a bound Force 5 Qi focus for 10 karma worth 1.25 power points and 5 extra power points from raising your magic rating a total of five times for a cost of 50 karma.

7.25 power points. 60 karma. And a lot of juggling (including waiting for your resources to catch up). No weapon focus. No initiation.


Compare this to a physical adept that start with Magic or Resonance D for an unadjusted magic rating of 1, Metatype C and walk out of chargen with an adjusted Magic rating of 6 (but only 1 power point).

Really ? He has 5 Essence worth of ware, 6 Power Points (for 50 Karma), 4 Qi Focus for another Power Point and you think another Adept can compete with that ? Thats so obvious i wont even make a char (and i wont make a char abusing the PowerPoints staying either, thats just a rule that came into existing they separated Magic from Power Points, as long as -1 Magic means -1 PowerPoint and vice versa everything is fine.)

[Noble Drake]

Well, a problem with that logic is if you accept that, then you also have to accept the possibility of saving attribute and/or skill points from priority pick: it never says use or lose on those, either...

While it is true that the same inaccuracy of language applies (not saying "you can't save these for later" in any case), there is no incentive for trying to hold back attribute or skill points for later usage - there's nothing you can get with them that you can't afford yet, or that you can't yet choose to buy with them.

In all cases, I believe the intent is to have to spend all your character creation points prior to starting play... it's just only implied, rather than explicitly stated.

[penllawen]

In all cases, I believe the intent is to have to spend all your character creation points prior to starting play... it's just only implied, rather than explicitly stated.

Something I dislike about this interpretation is that you could easily get into places where you have a few points leftover you can't spend, and I don't like encouraging a "use-it-or-lose-it" mentality. Players end up scrabbling around taking random qualities mostly because the cost uses up their remaining karma. Just seems... untidy, to me.

Edit to add - and I see no harm in letting players take a small amount of leftover karma out of chargen.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, a problem with that logic is if you accept that, then you also have to accept the possibility of saving attribute and/or skill points from priority pick: it never says use or lose on those, either...

While it is true that the same inaccuracy of language applies (not saying "you can't save these for later" in any case), there is no incentive for trying to hold back attribute or skill points for later usage - there's nothing you can get with them that you can't afford yet, or that you can't yet choose to buy with them.

In all cases, I believe the intent is to have to spend all your character creation points prior to starting play... it's just only implied, rather than explicitly stated.

Well one notable thing you'd probably WANT to hang on to Karma for is raising your Magic Attribute as an Adept.  Raising it during Chargen is a trap, since you won't get Power Points for it.. better to raise post-chargen, all the moreso if you can carry over karma.   But that's more of an Adepts and Power Points issue, than a Karma carryover issue...

[Xenon]

Unlike previous editions there are no rules in SR6 that allow you to keep any of your customization karma post chargen....

Which is what means that you can carry any amount you would like to post chargen.

No.

[Typhus]

One thing I am finding isn't super clear from the rules, at least not to me, is when the Action Allotment refreshes?

Is it at the start of the round for all characters? 
-This would mean if I get attacked before my first turn, I have actions available to defend with.

Or is it at the start of my own turn, like in most games?
-This would mean if I get attacked before my first turn, I have no actions available to defend with (like being Flat Footed, in certain other games).

Surprise rules seem to indicate I have an Action Allotment because I can use them to defend with only, just not move or take actions on my "turn", so it would seem everyone gets them at the start of the round, but that's not super explicit.

"During a single combat round, each participant gets an allotment of Actions to use on or around their player turn."

This doesn't say when the actions refresh, so I am confused on the RAI here too.  Or is it explained elsewhere than in the description of a Combat Round?

[penllawen]

One thing I am finding isn't super clear from the rules, at least not to me, is when the Action Allotment refreshes?

Is it at the start of the round for all characters? 
-This would mean if I get attacked before my first turn, I have actions available to defend with.

I don't think RAW states it succinctly but I, for one (and I think most people here) are reading it as this option. IIRC the surprise rules go further and say you can't do any Anytime actions until your first turn, which if you adhere to the second interpretation - you don't get any actions until your first turn anyway - then they make no sense.

[Typhus]

The way the rules are written in general, I guess I don't feel like I can take anything for granted.  I agree with your thoughts though.

The start of the Round is the most logical place for them to refresh.  Under surprise it just says you can't take "actions", but you can make Defense Tests.  If Defense Tests are free, then all is well. You basically just don't get your normal Action Allotment (which is probably how it should read instead).  Kind of moot, I suppose.  It's basically the same thing as getting it but not being able to spend it.  You just couldn't do any type of spending of the Allotment until the start of the next round. 

Surprise says :
"Those who fail this test also roll Initiative, but they cannot act or spend Edge in the first combat round. They still roll to defend against attacks and to soak damage, but they cannot take any actions on their own. Once that first combat round is over, they can act normally."

"Cannot take any actions" would seem to imply you can't spend any of your allotment, but doesn't specify.  I suppose that's not a terribly relevant.  If I can "roll to defend" though, can I spend a Minor to add an extra dice pool into the mix?  I assume not?  Per the Action section, that would be "an action" which I am forbidden from.  This also better fits the idea of being surprised.  Either way, if that's the read, it seems that as soon as the round goes back to the top of the order, you get your allotment (given/refreshed/unlocked) and can now take defense or anytime actions in response to attacks prior to your turn.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You could read it that everyone generates a fresh set of actions at the beginning of their player turn, but if that's the case you can be stuck with no actions to dodge with even if you're not surprised.

[Typhus]

It would certainly simulate the idea of being Flat Footed, but a lot of games are getting away from that these days.  I think top of the order makes good sense when looking at the bigger picture.  It's the least fiddly.  I suppose more "gritty" games could hold to start of turn, since Defense Tests are free. 

[Xenon]

Is it at the start of the round for all characters? 

This.

You are assumed to have all your actions refreshed at the start of each combat turn. That way you can for example use your Major action on an Anytime action if you like in case you have less initiative than your attacker. They reference this in a couple of places.

Here is one:

SR6 p. 41 Intercept (A)
If an opponent comes within Close attack range, you may go out of Initiative order and make an Attack action as long as you have both a Minor and a Major Action still available in this round (because you either are after the attacking player in Initiative order or you deferred some of your actions).

If I can "roll to defend" though, can I spend a Minor to add an extra dice pool into the mix?

You cannot spend a Minor Anytime Action if you are currently considered surprised (you already quoted the relevant rule).

Unlike previous edition you still get to oppose the attack (in previous edition you were considered "unaware of attack" and the attack turned into a simple test rather than an opposed test, which was often kinda devastating for the target)

[Noble Drake]

Something I dislike about this interpretation is that you could easily get into places where you have a few points leftover you can't spend...

That's not true. You can end up with a few points that you don't want to spend on what they can get you, but because you can spend as little as 1 Karma and get something, you are always able to spend all your points.

I agree that there likely isn't any harm in letting a player hang on to a few karma from chargen though. Just like there isn't any harm in insisting they spend every last point.